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  #361  
Old 07-03-05, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
Tsk, tsk, tsk - what happened to FAT only in the 100? For the record, his time at the GMC meet was 10.5.

If we open this can of worms, you can count on an avalanche of 10.74's, 10.84's, and 10.94's, by athletes basically none of whom could break 11.00 FAT. Also, we would have to consider 100 yard conversions to 100m (~+0.9 sec). I propose to keep it FAT.
Yes, Seek UP, In my old age, I'm getting senile. I forgot about the FAT only in the 100 already. I agree with you because I saw first hand what happened with Dennis Fieglien and his 10.6 at the GCL behind Dante Murray's 10.5 in 1998. I don't think either one ever broke 11.0 FAT. I would never want to consider converting 100 yards to 100 meters by adding 0.9 seconds to them.
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  #362  
Old 07-03-05, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
Tsk, tsk, tsk - what happened to FAT only in the 100? For the record, his time at the GMC meet was 10.5.

If we open this can of worms, you can count on an avalanche of 10.74's, 10.84's, and 10.94's, by athletes basically none of whom could break 11.00 FAT. Also, we would have to consider 100 yard conversions to 100m (~+0.9 sec). I propose to keep it FAT.
wouldnt this be an exception to the rule. the gent has records with fat times to back up his hand held 21.4 at gmc.
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  #363  
Old 07-03-05, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by skins99
wouldnt this be an exception to the rule. the gent has records with fat times to back up his hand held 21.4 at gmc.
We took his 21.4 and put him second in the 200 at 21.64. I'm against making exceptions because of who someone is. I have him at 10.93 at the regional in 1991 which will put him on the top 25 very close to the top ten. If you take Ray's 10.5 at the GMC, how can you not take Murray's 10.5 at his league meet. Remember moemanxc wanted Murray put on because he holds the GCL record with his 10.5.

Seek Up votes "No"
Lancermania votes "No"
skins99 votes "Yes"
HOW do moemanxc and impartial observer vote?
Right now the vote is 2-1 against putting him on.
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  #364  
Old 07-03-05, 08:30 PM
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I say we keep it uniform. Perhaps you ought to put an asterisk on the list saying that only FAT times were considered since it is a much more accurate measure for a race as short as the 100. Just like what Seek Up said we would have a rather large number of people at 10.74, 10.84 etc. conversions. I think that this actually is the most legit way and the guys who are truly the fastest in Cincy history wind up on the list.
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  #365  
Old 07-03-05, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lancermania
200 Meters Dash FAT
1. 21.04 1990 Mario Allmon Princeton GMC 1st
2. 21.64 1983 David Deering Mt. Healthy Sectional 1st
2. 21.64 1992 Hank Ray Sycamore GMC
4. 21.74 1992 Milan Barnes St. Xavier Regional Prelims
5. 21.82 1985 Chrales Kiser McNicholas Regional 1st
6. 21.84 1978 Vic Cass Purcell Regional 1st
7. 21.94 1980 Brian Mercer Forest Park State 5th
8. 21.94 2002 Cedric Powell Roger Bacon La Rosa’s 1st
9. 21.95 1989 Jude Johnson CAPE Regional 1st
10. 21.96 1987 Vince Clark CAPE Regional 1st
A couple of things here. I wanted to verify the conversion for 220 yard dash to 200 meter dash is -0.1 seconds. That would explain Vic Cass' 21.84 (21.7 - 0.1 + .24).

Assuming the above is true, I have a mark from one of the greatest athletes in Cincinnati history. In 1963 at the Miami Relays, Carl Ward of Taft blazed a 21.8, which would convert to a 21.94.

I noticed Brian Mercer of Forest Park ran a 21.8 in the state finals for 200 meters. Did he run a 21.7 in prelims or should his actual time be 22.04 (21.8 + .24)?

Milan Barnes' time was from the Princeton Inv.

Also, Charles Kiser's name is misspelled.
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  #366  
Old 07-04-05, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
A couple of things here. I wanted to verify the conversion for 220 yard dash to 200 meter dash is -0.1 seconds. That would explain Vic Cass' 21.84 (21.7 - 0.1 + .24).

Assuming the above is true, I have a mark from one of the greatest athletes in Cincinnati history. In 1963 at the Miami Relays, Carl Ward of Taft blazed a 21.8, which would convert to a 21.94.

I noticed Brian Mercer of Forest Park ran a 21.8 in the state finals for 200 meters. Did he run a 21.7 in prelims or should his actual time be 22.04 (21.8 + .24)?

Milan Barnes' time was from the Princeton Inv.

Also, Charles Kiser's name is misspelled.
I am going to fix these things.

Vic Cass goes to 21.81
Carl Ward goes to 21.91
Brian Mercer is off the list at 22.04
Milan Barnes effort has been changed to Princeton
Charles Kiser's spelling has been corrected.

I convert each yard mark individually using proportion.
For 200 meters it is 7920" for 220 yards over the time in yards and that is equal to 7872" for 200 meters over X. Then you cross multiply and solve for X. In Cass's case it is 7920 x X = 7872 X 21.7. That comes out to 21.57 + .24 = 21.81. Likewise Ward's comes out to 21.91.
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  #367  
Old 07-04-05, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by moemancc
I say we keep it uniform. Perhaps you ought to put an asterisk on the list saying that only FAT times were considered since it is a much more accurate measure for a race as short as the 100. Just like what Seek Up said we would have a rather large number of people at 10.74, 10.84 etc. conversions. I think that this actually is the most legit way and the guys who are truly the fastest in Cincy history wind up on the list.
moemanxc, we could have a list of quite a few more than ten at 10.74 if we opened up the can of worms that Seek Up wants to keep a lid on.

I went back to look at some honor roll lists to see who all ran 10.5 in a track meet besides Ray. It is quite a list.

Reggie Trimm - Forest Park - 9.6 100 yards 1976
Harry Foley - St. Xavier - 9.6 100 yards dash 1976
The above two convert to 10.5 adding the adjustment of 9/10.

Saunders - Priceton - 10.5 - 1984
Brown - Princeton - 10.5 - 1986
Snow - CAPE - 10.5 - 1986
Hardy - Aiken - 10.5 - 1986
Terry - Sycamore - 10.5 - 1989
Brown - Withrow - 10.5 - 1991
Ray - Sycamore - 10.5 - 1992
Rogers - Hamilton - 10.5 - 1994
Murray - Moeller - 10.5 - 1998
Myers - Hamilton - 10.5 1997

Need I go on. Ray is not unique in claiming to have run a 10.5 manual time. Most of these guys couldn't break 11.00 FAT if their lives depended on it as Seek Up would say.
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  #368  
Old 07-04-05, 09:52 AM
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Just for the record, I agree with only considering FAT for the 100. There are too many variables in manual timing that can make 3 or 4 tenths of a second difference. In other races that's not a big deal. But, in the 100 that's huge. I like the list the way it is.
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  #369  
Old 07-04-05, 10:22 AM
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i have changed my mind. while ray and a few others have backed up there hand times with very good fat's most havent so lets not ruin the list.
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  #370  
Old 07-04-05, 01:57 PM
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I have scored our top ten lists to see who are the greatest teams of all time. As expected, Princeton is the runaway winner. Seek Up, before you say the points don't add up to the proper totals, I only scored one relay per school and two per open event. I scored eight (10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1) but in some relay events I couldn't get eight schools, so I couldn't score eight in some relays. Thirty two schools have scored points off these lists. That's pretty impressive in my book. I counted Forest Park and Greenhills totals under Winton Woods because people who live in those communities now go to Winton Woods. I scored Lakota under Lakota East because Jason Lindsay, now the head coach at East was the coach at Lakota before the switch. I left Courter Tech and CAPE as is because there really aren't any single schools which replaced them.

Here they are--the all time top ten schools for Greater Cincinnati:

1. Princeton 115 1/5
2. Moeller 58
3. St. Xavier 57
4. Winton Woods 54½
5. La Salle 47 1/5
6. Colerain 35
7. Lakota East 31 1/5
8. Sycamore 26
8. Courter Tech. 26
10. Roger Bacon 23

Last edited by Lancermania; 07-05-05 at 08:18 AM..
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  #371  
Old 07-04-05, 02:03 PM
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I have restored Ben Bird's 188'4" in the discus since it is documented that is the city record in the events and since we also have Novak in the pole vault and Seitz in the high jump without meets, so I was looking for consistency.

I have put these results on a three page Microsoft Word file. All the open events and field events are in two columns to make it easier to update anywhere on the list. Anyone who wants to be mailed the file, send me your email in a PM.

Last edited by Lancermania; 07-05-05 at 08:17 AM..
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  #372  
Old 07-05-05, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up

800m - Mark Courtney ran a 1:54.72 at state, not 1:54 12 (he should get bumped from the list as a result)
I sent an email to Tom Stickey, AD at Purcell-Marion asking him about Courtney's time. He sent me a reply showing Courtney at this time:

800 Mark Courtney 1:54.2

Did he round up the 1:54.12 from the state meet? If he did, why?

Also, he says he sent this for the shot which we already had:

Shot Tom Hassel 60’ 4”

Last edited by Lancermania; 07-05-05 at 01:41 PM..
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  #373  
Old 07-05-05, 01:51 PM
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I just noticed that I had Purcell down for third in the 800 meters relay when I should have had them down tied for 1977 Colerain for second at 1:28.30. The changed has been made to page 10 of this thread and also on the Microsoft Word file.
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  #374  
Old 07-05-05, 07:59 PM
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A great mystery has been solved. Where did Eric Blaine of Wyoming run his 47.9 or did he even run a 47.9? The answer is yes, he did at the state meet on May 31, 1980. That time tied the existing Class AA state meet record. Wow!

I had a hard time finding it because it appears in the Monday, June 2, 1980 edition of the Enquirer on page B-2. Since that was the first year for meters at the state meet, there is no conversion needed for yards to meters, only manual to FAT giving Blaine a time of 48.14 and moving him from ninth on the list to fourth place on the 400 meters FAT list.

The only mysteries left to solve appear to be Novak, Bird, Seitz, and Princeton's 1:27.8 and what meets they did their marks in.

Last edited by Lancermania; 07-06-05 at 09:43 AM..
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  #375  
Old 07-05-05, 08:40 PM
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Seek Up, you said that Jeff Robertson was spelled without a "t", so I changed it, but what about Tony? Is he Jeff's brother? Is he also spelled without a "t"? I'm referring to the Colerain relay team of 1977 in the 4 X 200 meters relay.
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  #376  
Old 07-05-05, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lancermania
I have scored our top ten lists to see who are the greatest teams of all time. As expected, Princeton is the runaway winner. Seek Up, before you say the points don't add up to the proper totals, I only scored one relay per school and two per open event. I scored eight (10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1) but in some relay events I couldn't get eight schools, so I couldn't score eight in some relays. Thirty two schools have scored points off these lists. That's pretty impressive in my book. I counted Forest Park and Greenhills totals under Winton Woods because people who live in those communities now go to Winton Woods. I scored Lakota under Lakota East because Jason Lindsay, now the head coach at East was the coach at Lakota before the switch. I left Courter Tech and CAPE as is because there really aren't any single schools which replaced them.

Here they are--the all time top ten schools for Greater Cincinnati:

1. Princeton 115 1/5
2. Moeller 58
3. St. Xavier 57
4. Winton Woods 54½
5. La Salle 47 1/5
6. Colerain 35
7. Lakota East 31 1/5
8. Sycamore 26
8. Courter Tech. 26
10. Roger Bacon 23
I actually had no intention of adding points. Once the lists have been made, people can tinker with them as they wish. Personally, I would not restrict a school to 2 individuals or 1 relay. This is an all-time list, so, to me, limitations make no sense. Without these limitations, I would guess Princeton makes a complete and absolute mockery of the field not just a complete mockery.
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  #377  
Old 07-05-05, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lancermania
A great mystery has been solved. Where did Eric Blaine of Wymonign run his 47.9 or did he even run a 47.9? The answer is yes, he did at the state meet on May 31, 1980. That time tied the existing Class AA state meet record. Wow!

I had a hard time finding it because it appears in the Monday, June 2, 1980 edition of the Enquirer on page B-2. Since that was the first year for meters at the state meet, there is no conversion needed for yards to meters, only manual to FAT giving Blaine a time of 48.14 and moving him from ninth on the list to fourth place on the 400 meters FAT list.

The only mysteries left to solve appear to be Novak, Bird, and Seitz, Princeton's 1:27.8 and what meets they did their marks in.
Good find on Blaine. Seitz shouldn't be too difficult. I am most concerned about tracking down the Princeton performance since it is the city record...
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  #378  
Old 07-05-05, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lancermania
Seek Up, you said that Jeff Robertson was spelled without a "t", so I changed it, but what about Tony? Is he Jeff's brother? Is he also spelled without a "t"? I'm referring to the Colerain relay team of 1977 in the 4 X 200 meters relay.
I took this straight from the Enquirer and the team members are listed on at least two occasions. You could verify with one of the Russo's, but thes two are not related as far as I can see.
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  #379  
Old 07-05-05, 09:53 PM
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Every list, at least those with conversions, should have a legend/note/etc. at the bottom explaining how times were converted. For example, for MT to FAT we would just put "add .24 sec". For yard to meter conversions, a message such as meters = yards x .9927 (or whatever the conversion factor is).

I only mention this b/c I envision this list being posted some place like Roncker's site and I want people to be able to easily figure out the original times.
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  #380  
Old 07-05-05, 10:07 PM
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Is Clermont Northeastern fair game for our lists?
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  #381  
Old 07-05-05, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
Is Clermont Northeastern fair game for our lists?
It is touch and go with this one.

1. The majority of the schools in their conferecne lie just outside the 30 mile limit, so I would have to say they don't meet criteria #1.

2. They did go to Lockland for the DII meet.

3. The school is 32+ miles from downtown Cincinnati, so they are out.

They only make one of the two criteria required.
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  #382  
Old 07-05-05, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
I took this straight from the Enquirer and the team members are listed on at least two occasions. You could verify with one of the Russo's, but thes two are not related as far as I can see.
I found the names in the 1977 honor roll listed in the Enquirer. The Colerain team was first team all city. Tony is spelled with a "t".
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  #383  
Old 07-05-05, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
Good find on Blaine. Seitz shouldn't be too difficult. I am most concerned about tracking down the Princeton performance since it is the city record...
I have emailed Meibers at Lockland with no response. I have left messages on his voice mail at Lockland with no response. Tonight I called his father who gave me his son's unlisted number at home who gave me Meibs unlisted number. I left a message on his voice mail wher he lives. He knows what we want. Let's hope he answers for the sake of the kids who were on that relay.

I have also called Karl Kaufmann at home twice. The first time I got not answer. Tonight his line was busy all night. Can he have online dial-up service? Oh my!!! I'm going to keep trying on this one.
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  #384  
Old 07-05-05, 11:36 PM
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Jeff Ross of Lakota did 7'½" at the Edgewood Relays. This is better than his 7'¼" at the district, so I have made the change.
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  #385  
Old 07-05-05, 11:42 PM
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I have gone through all the field events and put in the real compter typed fractions not 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 which moemanxc and Seek Up put on their lists. Here is where you find the fractions on your computer. All involve holding down the alt key and punching in four numbers while holding down the alt key. When you release the alt key the fraction will appear.

¼ = alt + 0188
½ = alt + 0189
¾ = alt + 0190
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  #386  
Old 07-05-05, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
Every list, at least those with conversions, should have a legend/note/etc. at the bottom explaining how times were converted. For example, for MT to FAT we would just put "add .24 sec". For yard to meter conversions, a message such as meters = yards x .9927 (or whatever the conversion factor is).

I only mention this b/c I envision this list being posted some place like Roncker's site and I want people to be able to easily figure out the original times.
I agree. I think I have made errors in the conversions based on what the NFSHSAA says as Rule 3-9-4.

National Federation of State High School Associations
Rule: 3-9-4 ...Electronic or digital timers which measure one one-hundredth of a second must be used. However, unless it is a fully automatic system, times registered in one one-hundredth of a second shall be rounded up to the next tenth of a second. (Example: 10.42 will be recorded as 10.5 unless a FAT system is used.) If FAT and manual times must be integrated, the hand-held times shall first be rounded up to the slower one-tenth of a second. Then a conversion factor of .24 must be added (i.e., MT +.24 = FAT)

The problem has occurred where I have converted yard times to meters and then to FAT. When I did the proportion solving problem, I left the answer in hundreds of a second which cannot be gotten from a manual time according the rule of the National Federation of State High School Athletic Associations. I should have rounded up to the next tenth my answers when I converted yards to meters.

Last edited by Lancermania; 07-06-05 at 12:01 AM..
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  #387  
Old 07-06-05, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
Good find on Blaine. Seitz shouldn't be too difficult. I am most concerned about tracking down the Princeton performance since it is the city record...
Things have really changed at UC's library since I was there the last time. When I first starting going in 1994, you had to put 10 cents in the machine to get a copy of the microfile. Then when I went years later, the copies were free. Today, you can't get copies of the micorfile. You have to have a student ID and scan the copy into a computer, the leave the microfilm area, go the the computer room where there are printers and print the file. What I did was send the file via email to my home computer. I have sent Seek Up a copy of the microfilm file, so he can see the I am not trying to jive him on Blaine.
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  #388  
Old 07-06-05, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seek Up
I actually had no intention of adding points. Once the lists have been made, people can tinker with them as they wish. Personally, I would not restrict a school to 2 individuals or 1 relay. This is an all-time list, so, to me, limitations make no sense. Without these limitations, I would guess Princeton makes a complete and absolute mockery of the field not just a complete mockery.
I just went with the rules of a normal track meet. If the majority of the committe thinks I should just score the top eight, I'll do it.

skins99 - vote
moemanxc - vote
impartial observer - vote.
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  #389  
Old 07-06-05, 05:48 AM
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works for me, top eight is how it is scored at most meets
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  #390  
Old 07-06-05, 04:20 PM
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I agree, although with it being a top ten list it does seem somewhat silly to leave off places 9 and 10.
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