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  #31  
Old 08-07-17, 11:22 PM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
Is that really the proposal, to give the byes to teams in the middle instead of the top? I've never seen that anywhere before--the byes go the top in every state I'm familiar with that's using this system. I'm looking at Illinois's tournament from last year right now--16 played 17 and the winner played 1, 15 played 18 and the winner played 2, etc.
Not sure exactly what what he proposal is- just typically they don't have the two bottom seeds play each other first round. It's usually take the top one and play the bottom seed, then work your way to the middle. Obviously need to adjust for byes if the numbers aren't right for bracket to whittle down evenly. I haven't really seen the model you are describing- unless it is a "play in" type situation. The main advantage of being a higher seed is getting to play lower seeds- doesn't make much sense if 2 plays 5 and 15 plays 19 opening round for example.
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  #32  
Old 08-07-17, 11:45 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
You're really over complicating it. In a standard single elimination tournament with bracket seeding it is a snake type format used to place each team which starts with the 1st seed and ends with the last seed. The 1st seed is placed at the top, 2 is the placed at the bottom, 3 is placed at the bottom the furthest away from 2, 4 is placed at the top the furthest away from 1, 5 is then placed at the top the furthest away from 1 and opposite of 4, 6 is placed in the bottom the furthest away from 2 and opposite 3, 7 the goes to the bottom opposite 2, and 8 goes to the top opposite 1. This format of seed placement continues in this pattern for any number of total teams you have.

To figure out byes all you have to do is pretend to fill out the rest of the bracket with empty slots out to the next in the power of 2 series (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc). So say you have 9 teams, 9 would then be placed at the top across from 1, setting up 8 to play 9. Then the rest is empty out to 16. This effectively gives all the other teams a first round bye, or 8 and 9 get a play in game, depending on how you want to look at it.

Follow this simple format and you can fill out a seeded bracket for any number of teams someone can throw at you. From 3 (2 plays 3 and 1 gets a bye) to 200 (144 teams play in the first round and 56 teams get a bye). Now when you start doing double elimination and pool play tournaments, that's when things start getting more complicated. I used to know a website that would generate brackets for whatever type of tournament you wanted to set up based on the number of teams you had.
Regardless of the complication, the brackets matchups I show for a 12-team NCAA style bracket are correct. The #1 seed will not have the worst seeded team in their bracket.
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  #33  
Old 08-08-17, 12:40 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Look Ma No Hands View Post
Regardless of the complication, the brackets matchups I show for a 12-team NCAA style bracket are correct. The #1 seed will not have the worst seeded team in their bracket.
Depends on what your definition of "their bracket" is. The 12th seed is on the 1st seeds half of the bracket. A 12 team bracket would look like the below picture. In a 14 team bracket the lowest seed would be on the other half of the bracket from the 1st seed. The 4th and 3rd seeds would lose their byes and would play the 13th and 14th seeds respectfully. Yes, the 3rd seed plays the lowest seed in the tournament, but they also are forced to play an extra game over the higher 1st and 2nd seeds.

Assuming the highest seeds always win, in a properly seeded tournament the #1 seed will always have the easiest path to the final regardless of how many teams are playing.
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  #34  
Old 08-08-17, 12:53 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatElk View Post
High school sports were not created for the entertainment of a bunch of internet posters. It's a coach's job to put his team in the best situation to win. Understanding how the draw works is part of doing your job a a coach. Shame on the coaches who never figured it out. Their players paid for it, especially over the long run. Voting a competitor lower to avoid playing them is part of the strategy. It's not unethical. All the good coaches do it. The Centerville Staley and Zawadski were masters. More power to them.
Yes, it is unethical. It's not breaking any rules and certainly not illegal, but it's most definitely unethical.
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  #35  
Old 08-08-17, 06:55 AM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
I used to know a website that would generate brackets for whatever type of tournament you wanted to set up based on the number of teams you had.
This works very well. Single/double/triple elimination, seeded or blind draws, round robin, etc.

https://www.printyourbrackets.com/

Last edited by TriangleMan; 08-08-17 at 07:25 AM.
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  #36  
Old 08-08-17, 09:00 AM
TheGreatElk TheGreatElk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Yes, it is unethical. It's not breaking any rules and certainly not illegal, but it's most definitely unethical.
Coaches don't feel this way. Part of the job. They expect it from each other. You're very wrong about this.
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  #37  
Old 08-08-17, 09:07 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatElk View Post
Coaches don't feel this way. Part of the job. They expect it from each other. You're very wrong about this.
How you feel about something doesnt change what it is.
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  #38  
Old 08-08-17, 10:25 AM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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As of now not all areas of Ohio are going to this method. NW is still using the same method as in past of allowing teams to place themselves where they want on the bracket. It would be nice if the ohsaa mandated some uniformity in how the districts do things.
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  #39  
Old 08-08-17, 11:17 AM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
Not sure exactly what what he proposal is- just typically they don't have the two bottom seeds play each other first round. It's usually take the top one and play the bottom seed, then work your way to the middle. Obviously need to adjust for byes if the numbers aren't right for bracket to whittle down evenly. I haven't really seen the model you are describing- unless it is a "play in" type situation. The main advantage of being a higher seed is getting to play lower seeds- doesn't make much sense if 2 plays 5 and 15 plays 19 opening round for example.
Assuming 16 teams:

1 plays 16
2 plays 15
etc.

If there are fewer than 16 teams, byes take the place of the missing teams.

If there are more than 16 teams, you need a play-in round where...

16 plays 17 (winner plays 1)
15 plays 18 (winner plays 2)
etc.
until you've used up all the teams.

If there are exactly 17 teams, which was the hypothetical I started with, the two bottom teams play each other. Otherwise they don't.
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  #40  
Old 08-08-17, 12:42 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Depends on what your definition of "their bracket" is. The 12th seed is on the 1st seeds half of the bracket. A 12 team bracket would look like the below picture. In a 14 team bracket the lowest seed would be on the other half of the bracket from the 1st seed. The 4th and 3rd seeds would lose their byes and would play the 13th and 14th seeds respectfully. Yes, the 3rd seed plays the lowest seed in the tournament, but they also are forced to play an extra game over the higher 1st and 2nd seeds.

Assuming the highest seeds always win, in a properly seeded tournament the #1 seed will always have the easiest path to the final regardless of how many teams are playing.
I'm confused why you think you're correcting me... Your attachment is exactly what I had written earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Look Ma No Hands View Post
In NCAA seeding of a 12-team bracket, #1 never plays winner of 11 v 12.

It goes:
1 v 8-9 winner
4 v 5-12 winner
3 v 6-11 winner
2 v 7-10 winner
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  #41  
Old 08-08-17, 05:11 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Look Ma No Hands View Post
I'm confused why you think you're correcting me... Your attachment is exactly what I had written earlier:
Again, I said that depends on what you mean by "their bracket." You said the 12 seed wasn't in their bracket. Read what I said when I addressed your original comment.
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  #42  
Old 08-08-17, 10:09 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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It is not just as simple as picking a spot in a bracket. For some coaches the bracket placement determines a time, if he wants to keep with a routine. Or it could set a location, as some districts are played in multiple early round locations. It could also have to do with his team's physical condition or end of season schedule. Injuries, last minute make up games, traveling for fans, or the opponent. In some areas of the state the entire district is held at the same site. Or the schools in 3 districts are all with in 30 miles. While in other districts schools may drive over 60 miles for their first game . There is limited uniformity because things are not the same for everyone in different areas of the state.
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  #43  
Old 08-09-17, 10:24 AM
serpico serpico is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
It would be nice if the ohsaa mandated some uniformity in how the districts do things.
I disagree. That would be like the NFHS mandating how the OHSAA runs its tourneys. Let the locals determine how to do things as much as possible. They are the ones with their fingers on the pulse of the schools.
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  #44  
Old 08-09-17, 11:59 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpico View Post
I disagree. That would be like the NFHS mandating how the OHSAA runs its tourneys. Let the locals determine how to do things as much as possible. They are the ones with their fingers on the pulse of the schools.
This is true. The sectional and district tournament games are organized and controlled by the local boards to best fit the schools they are dealing with. Once the games reach the regional level it is controlled more by the OHSAA.
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  #45  
Old 08-10-17, 10:08 AM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatElk View Post
High school sports were not created for the entertainment of a bunch of internet posters. It's a coach's job to put his team in the best situation to win. Understanding how the draw works is part of doing your job a a coach. Shame on the coaches who never figured it out. Their players paid for it, especially over the long run. Voting a competitor lower to avoid playing them is part of the strategy. It's not unethical. All the good coaches do it. The Centerville Staley and Zawadski were masters. More power to them.
I'm not referring to strategic voting. I'm referring to coaches that vote one team down because they are salty.
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  #46  
Old 08-10-17, 04:09 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy27 View Post
I'm not referring to strategic voting. I'm referring to coaches that vote one team down because they are salty.
Wouldn't that fall under your strategic voting?
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  #47  
Old 08-11-17, 11:49 AM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Wouldn't that fall under your strategic voting?
No. It would not. Not voting for a team where they deserve to be seeded just because you don't like the coach is not strategy.

Also, coaches voting for their friends' teams higher than they deserve is also not really coaching strategy either.

Also, league loyalty (the most common occurrence of inappropriate voting) is not strategy either. When league coaches block-vote their teams to higher seeds to "take care of their own" is not strategy. Unless you consider not pissing off league coaches whose teams will kick your team's butt the next few years for not voting them ... a strategy.
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  #48  
Old 08-11-17, 09:41 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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That is all strategy. It may not be yours but it is a strategy as defined by a plan of action to accomplish something.
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  #49  
Old 08-11-17, 10:17 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
That is all strategy. It may not be yours but it is a strategy as defined by a plan of action to accomplish something.
No.
A stategy is a plan to help your team succeed.

Voting with a bias (for a friend, against your enemy, for your league-mate) is not a plan to help your team succeed.

Now, if a coach votes in a way SOLELY to help his team win, that is a strategy. Its not right, but IT IS A STRATEGY, because it is a plan to help his team win. The coach SHOULD NOT vote that way (but OFTEN does). The coach SHOULD vote for the best teams, in order. That's what he is supposed to do.

So voting in a manner to help your team succeed is a strategy.
But voting with a bias (for a friend, against an enemy, for a league-mate when it is not warranted), is not only wrong, it is not even a strategy... because the vote is not cast to improve his team's chance of success.
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  #50  
Old 08-11-17, 10:26 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Those are your strategies. In your examples the voting coach's strategy was to hurt another coach. He was successful from your examples.

Last edited by spirit454; 08-12-17 at 04:35 AM.
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  #51  
Old 08-30-17, 12:32 PM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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Does anyone know when ohsaa comes out with the district sites and teams for basketball?
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  #52  
Old 08-30-17, 01:24 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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The good news is that a middle tier team will get one win on their homecourt or the lower seeded team will have a shot. Those 90-35 games should not happen anymore.
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  #53  
Old 09-08-17, 09:36 AM
MrGMC MrGMC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Look Ma No Hands View Post
No.
A stategy is a plan to help your team succeed.

Voting with a bias (for a friend, against your enemy, for your league-mate) is not a plan to help your team succeed.

Now, if a coach votes in a way SOLELY to help his team win, that is a strategy. Its not right, but IT IS A STRATEGY, because it is a plan to help his team win. The coach SHOULD NOT vote that way (but OFTEN does). The coach SHOULD vote for the best teams, in order. That's what he is supposed to do.

So voting in a manner to help your team succeed is a strategy.
But voting with a bias (for a friend, against an enemy, for a league-mate when it is not warranted), is not only wrong, it is not even a strategy... because the vote is not cast to improve his team's chance of success.
It does help your team succeed though. If everyone in the league bumps each other up, the seeds are higher. Therefore, voting with a league bias helps your team.
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  #54  
Old 09-11-17, 12:20 PM
farnsworth420 farnsworth420 is offline
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Not sure if this is also going hand in hand with the seeding, but a running clock will be instituted when a team is up 35 in the second half.
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  #55  
Old 09-12-17, 06:47 AM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farnsworth420 View Post
not sure if this is also going hand in hand with the seeding, but a running clock will be instituted when a team is up 35 in the second half.
Where would I find documentation of this change?
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  #56  
Old 09-12-17, 07:54 AM
farnsworth420 farnsworth420 is offline
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http://www.ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sport...emo-9.1.17.pdf
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  #57  
Old 09-12-17, 08:33 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by farnsworth420 View Post
This link says it is a proposal. Was it voted on?
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  #58  
Old 09-12-17, 08:49 AM
farnsworth420 farnsworth420 is offline
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looks like it is being voted on sept 21st
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  #59  
Old 09-12-17, 10:02 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Running clock at 35pts and I would say game stops at 50. Although the running clock may do some good, the coaches that this is trying to stop may keep pushing the button.
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  #60  
Old 09-12-17, 10:13 AM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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I can imagine a conversation like this at the scorer’s table.


Ok, the differential is 36, we’re in running-clock mode.

Team B just hit a three, now at 33, back to stop-the-clock mode.

Team A pushed it back to 36, back to running-clock mode.

What’s the score now? 64-25? What’s that spread?

Hold on, let me get my calculator out. I was never good at math.

And on, and on….
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