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  #1  
Old 07-01-17, 01:34 PM
SirStanley SirStanley is offline
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St. Anthony's (NJ) closes

https://theringer.com/2017-basketbal...acy-3bdea1a5f0
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  #2  
Old 07-01-17, 01:41 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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OK, I'll be the first to say it...good riddance.

This school was a good example of selling your athletic soul doesn't make the school stronger.
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  #3  
Old 07-01-17, 02:32 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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Guess we could close Glenville than also.
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  #4  
Old 07-01-17, 03:01 PM
madworld madworld is offline
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“The moment he stopped coaching, [St. Anthony] would have closed, and that’s why he continued,” says Tom Konchalski, a high school basketball analyst. “This was saving lives. These are kids who, if they didn’t go to St. Anthony, they would then go to public school and been swallowed up by the streets.”
Pretty powerful quote- but thank goodness it's closed now
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  #5  
Old 07-01-17, 06:22 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madworld View Post
“The moment he stopped coaching, [St. Anthony] would have closed, and that’s why he continued,” says Tom Konchalski, a high school basketball analyst. “This was saving lives. These are kids who, if they didn’t go to St. Anthony, they would then go to public school and been swallowed up by the streets.”
Pretty powerful quote- but thank goodness it's closed now
I'm sure that is what Oak Hill, Findlay Prep and the other basketball factories think about their schools too.

IMO, the worst thing happening in HS sports is the growth of the sports factories. St Anthony was one of the very first to embrace this concept.
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  #6  
Old 07-01-17, 06:52 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA70PP View Post
Guess we could close Glenville than also.
I thought a closure of either Glenville or Collinwood was being discussed (?) Of course, with the presence and influence of Ted Ginn and the Glenville football program, I guess we all know which of the two will survive, if it ever comes to that.
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  #7  
Old 07-01-17, 07:02 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I'm sure that is what Oak Hill, Findlay Prep and the other basketball factories think about their schools too.

IMO, the worst thing happening in HS sports is the growth of the sports factories. St Anthony was one of the very first to embrace this concept.
Unlike either of those institutions, St. Anthony served a legitimate mission and inspired hope in the downtrodden and less-well-to-do in a really rough urban area. This is a huge community loss for reasons beyond basketball.

Last edited by nwwarrior09; 07-01-17 at 07:13 PM.
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  #8  
Old 07-02-17, 01:51 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
Unlike either of those institutions, St. Anthony served a legitimate mission and inspired hope in the downtrodden and less-well-to-do in a really rough urban area. This is a huge community loss for reasons beyond basketball.
Sorry, this is just a sore subject for me.

A school that boasts 150 Division I College basketball players in 45 years is not playing by the standard rules for High School sports.

High School sports is supposed to be let's play a game with students from my school versus students from your school. It's not supposed to be let's play a game. Tell me what the game is and I'll go out looking for the best players and bring them to my school so we can beat your school.

St Anthony may have been a fine academic institution but they corrupted the game of HS basketball.
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  #9  
Old 07-02-17, 05:13 PM
Myron Myron is offline
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You'll get some very defensive reactions to this from certain factions on this website, but we all know what you wrote above is true, Yappi. In fact, the combative, relentless, ultra-sensitive defensiveness of those who feel otherwise essentially verifies that what you say above is true.

I guess it's some karma that High School sports have gone one step past the recruiting high schools to the Findlay Preps, Huntington Preps, Oak Hills, IMGs, et al, ad nauseum that now recruit from the recruiting schools.

I bring this up on yappi.com periodically: I know my share of very successful, well-known coaches who have coached in the non-open-enrollment publics and also have been in the privates. To a man, they all--very quietly and off-the-record--acknowledge that it's a far easier ball game in the private school situation. FAR easier.
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Old 07-02-17, 06:33 PM
Curious One Curious One is offline
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Interesting to see so many worried more about the precious institution that is New Jersey HS basketball than they are about the kids who are losing a lifeline. I suggest a Yappi field trip to the St Anthony neighborhood to develop some humanity in those who are more worried about hoops! For many of these kids, St Anthony was a way out.

I'm a 35 year public school teacher and coach, but I've seen it personally
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  #11  
Old 07-02-17, 08:24 PM
member1 member1 is offline
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Watch the Street Stops Here and tell me how St. Anthony's is anything like Oak Hills or Findlay Prep . Yes basketball was the focus and many kids used that avenue for a path to college but to compare that small school in Jersey City to any of these "factories" of today is silly. Again watch that documentry and maybe your perception may change.
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  #12  
Old 07-02-17, 09:03 PM
kent16 kent16 is offline
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I'm pretty sure Hurley kicked out a few very good players..
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  #13  
Old 07-02-17, 09:08 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
St Anthony may have been a fine academic institution but they corrupted the game of HS basketball.
Agree to disagree. As somebody that's coached in an inner-city environment before and has seen what some of these kids go through growing up I'd much rather see them get a real chance at making a life for themselves than protecting the supposed sanctity of the game.
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  #14  
Old 07-03-17, 08:47 AM
EaglePride01 EaglePride01 is offline
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St. Anthony was definitely a polarizing school that drew plenty of detractors as well as admirers. An accurate assessment of the school probably lies somewhere in the middle. The program Hurley built certainly made it a basketball mecca for premier hoops talent in the tri-state area, but the school did a lot to serve the inner-city community it was in. The student body was 97% minority and low income, they charged tuition at a fraction of the cost as to what it takes to educate a student, and they boasted a 100% college acceptance rate for graduating seniors. Hurley used money generated by the hoops program to offset the substantial losses the school was taking just to keep the doors open a little longer. To compare the school to basketball factories like Oak Hill, Findlay Prep, etc. is not fair in my opinion.
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  #15  
Old 07-03-17, 11:30 AM
member1 member1 is offline
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Tri-state basketball is very different than what we have here in Ohio. A lot of times kids leave those rough situations and sometimes travel hours to attend catholic schools like St. Anthony, St. Benedict or the now closed St. Patrick in Jersey. Or some of the great Catholic powerhouse programs in NYC. Cardinal Hayes, Brother Rice(may be closed) and others. These are legit private schools that have missions set-up in major urban areas. Many of these schools are barely holding on. The contrast with the prep school movement as seen with the Findlay, Hunnigton and so on is the mission is basketball. Many times those schools don't have actually physical buildings. They partner with virtual academies or other local schools for academics.
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  #16  
Old 07-03-17, 01:45 PM
madworld madworld is offline
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I think the problem Is many are focusing on athletics as opposed to improving the lives of the kids that go to the school. You can Complain about those prep schools and some private schools and focus on athletics but the bottom line is some programs are in place with the idea of improving lives. I've seen it in public inner city schools and private schools. If you want to focus on "my team beating your team" go ahead, but Hurley created a better path for kids to find success in the future.
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  #17  
Old 07-03-17, 03:00 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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"Hurley created a better path for kids to find success in the future."

These things are difficult to challenge without someone strawmaning the argument into accusations that it is an argument against "private" education or "church run" education."

To be clear, I don't care WHO provides the education to my 70% "economically challenged, culturally diverse" neighborhood. I want it to be good.

If the Church can open schools in Guatamala, they can keep a school open within the neighborhoods of Jersey City, New Jersey. Why do they choose not to do that? The question should be asked until answered.


It's ingrained in us to think, "Priest," "Nun," "Church," "private" somehow equates to "doing it better" or at least more charitably but for me, some things do not add up.

No he Hurley, nor the the school "created a better path." At least no good case has been made for that. If the school had succeeded in its mission, the school would be FULLY endowed, even without the additional government monies that do come in to private schools. If they had even been as successful in producing NBA players, ones that were fully vested in the mission of the Church, a simple look at recent NBA contacts would imagine a world in which none of these schools ceased operation.

If St. Anthony's is to close it is only because the Chruch does not want it to continue operation. They are not willing to take "a loss," even when they themselves are so rich.

Where does the money go?

The "Church" continues to build schools in the richer burbs while closing down schools in the inner city. While open, they are sure to admit superior athletes and academics into those inner city schools and they would have us presume, produce superior value added and alums yet, the schools fail economically and there's no researched evidence that in general, they are providing superior education, retention or even counseling to the diverse populations of those constituents when measured on an equal, open enrollment basis.

In short, if you swap the athletic and academic players, there's not enough production to even presume the private schools would "win" either athletically or academically, let alone morally or culturally. If St. Anthony's had shown the success claimed, they would be a fully endowed, open enrollment school serving the poorest of the poor. They are not.

The Church has continually shown they are both not able to nor even willing to take on the challenge, not in America, not without ranking who they are willing to serve based upon their potential to eventually contribute to the pot. Or more succinctly,

Public schools teach ALL God's children. And they do it better. And that's a shaming on the Church schools. And both need to be better if we're not to become a feudal society.
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  #18  
Old 07-03-17, 03:04 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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These are the type of articles that solidify my opinion of St Anthony and all the other sports factories:

Quote:
Over at St. Anthony's -- the longtime rival of St. Pat's when Kevin Boyle coached the Celtics -- Hurley's club has 10 players with D-1 offers, including three African big men who should be piling up more offers in coming months and years: 6-10 Daniel Mading (who holds offers from Florida, UConn and Arizona State, among others), 6-11 Oscar Okeke and 6-9 Akuwovo "Savior" Ogeneyole. Mading and Okeke are members of the Class of 2017, while Ogeneyole is 2018.

They join the Georgetown-bound Mosely, 5-foot-11 transfer Asante Gist, 6-7 wing Kaleb Bishop and 6-foot guard Shyquan Gibbs to give the Friars a nucleus of strong talent. The Friars are also expecting Marial Mading, Daniel's younger brother and a talented point guard, to arrive soon from Australia.

https://www.sny.tv/college-recruitin...ches/153497006
When you are actively recruiting from 10 million people and still go outside the country to get more talented people, it's not about "the kids" anymore.

Some adults at these schools should have stepped in a long time ago and put a stop to these coaches from New Jersey private schools acting like they were college coaches.
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  #19  
Old 07-03-17, 04:16 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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Public and private schools are in separate associations in New York and New Jersey aren't they?
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  #20  
Old 07-03-17, 04:35 PM
hvs1717 hvs1717 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA70PP View Post
Public and private schools are in separate associations in New York and New Jersey aren't they?
I can't speak for Jersey but I grew up in New York. New York had the NYSPHSAA Championships (Public school), the PSAL Championship (Private Schools) and the CHSAA (Catholic school) championships. There was also the Federation championships where the public champions played against the PSAL champions.
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  #21  
Old 07-03-17, 08:52 PM
Myron Myron is offline
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I love the sports factories that have about twelve black kids in the entire school--each one an elite football, basketball, and/or track athlete--and crow about how it's part of their mission to "reach out to" and "extend an opportunity to" disadvantaged groups.
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  #22  
Old 07-03-17, 08:57 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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New York's all over the place.

Beyond the independent schools in New Jersey (i.e. Blair Academy, Peddie), all the schools are in one association. However, the public and private/parochial (non-public) schools compete in separate tournaments (they may come together for a "TOC" in some sports). The climate in New Jersey among the private schools is much more of an "open season" than it is in Ohio when it comes to recruiting.
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  #23  
Old 07-03-17, 10:36 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Basketball transfers got crazy when AAU ball got big. Every good team now is just an AAU team that all went to one school. You have to recruit to win state now. It's just a part of life now in HS sports. The schools that whine the loudest are schools that also recruit but lose to a school that recruits better
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  #24  
Old 07-06-17, 09:52 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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I'd be curious to know what the cost of a teaching staff is if there are more clergy in the classroom versus lay workers. There was a portion of the article that did reference fewer and fewer staff at St. Anthony's were formal clergy but did not directly add that to the equation when it came to the school's poor finances.
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  #25  
Old 07-07-17, 08:30 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by scbuckeye99 View Post
I'd be curious to know what the cost of a teaching staff is if there are more clergy in the classroom versus lay workers. There was a portion of the article that did reference fewer and fewer staff at St. Anthony's were formal clergy but did not directly add that to the equation when it came to the school's poor finances.
I don't think the accounting, or savings is going to be as straightforward as some might presume? Joining Clergy is not the vow of poverty some think. Teaching Priest (note: "Priest") can make some good cash on top of no soc sec payments, medical, even housing and food may be in the mix. Even third world, I've seen some living pretty high on the hog.

As the private schools do not generally address the high costs of Special Ed in anyway near the levels mandated by a public system, I doubt there would be a hugh savings if they could somehow magically find (cough had succeeded in their mission cough) enough clergy to fill the teaching and administrative positions.

People don't want to consider the possibility that these schools have failed. For at least five decades the private Catholic (run) schools have actively poached and cherry picked from the primary public system in order to feed the diminishing populations of their over-built secondaries. For at least three decades they have been closing elementaries to the deference of the higher profile secondaries.

Speculation but I think it's a fair question to ask the alums of these inner city private schools that for so long have poached, why they did not become vested in the mission? Maybe the simple asking of the question will get a few of those alums to rethink and remember their values. What is more important, a fifth McMansion and gold lame baby seats for their own kids or the religious and public OR private academic education of a 7 year old living without Winter heat in the old neighborhood?


Instead of increased efforts towards proselytization and sharing the word, private schools attempted to complete rosters by poaching and cherry picking from the public systems and raise revenue by politicing public money. They seriously and selfishly harmed the synergy in their feeder schools and in the public systems, particularly in the inner cities with their high rate of special ed, counseling and vocational training needs (all the higher cost aspects of education not addressed by secondary "Catholic" schools).

To pick a decade, I'd say 50s-60s would be about the time the private Catholics began to over build and move out of the Central ethnic cities and abandoned their mandates. It's killing both systems, when by now, the private Catholic, if they had indeed succeeded in their mission, would be fully endowed, nearly free schools serving the neighborhoods that gave them birth. So it's still on my mind, where's the money going? Is the revenue generated by the high schools being used for other means and when a school hits a diminishing return, is it abandoned for higher returns? The economics of these schools, do not make sense. Hell, one good basketball player, let alone a few CEOs could boost a school into economic security. Why do the alums not value the education supplied by their alma maters or is it the changed diversity of the neighborhoods in which the schools lie?


These schools have failed to generate a self sustainable clergy. They have sacrificed mission at the developmental ages for the more high profile secondary. They have failed to keep their alums, Catholic or not, vested in the supposed mission. They have failed to generate endowment.

They have failed.
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Old 07-07-17, 05:24 PM
Looseball Looseball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
I don't think the accounting, or savings is going to be as straightforward as some might presume? Joining Clergy is not the vow of poverty some think. Teaching Priest (note: "Priest") can make some good cash on top of no soc sec payments, medical, even housing and food may be in the mix. Even third world, I've seen some living pretty high on the hog.

As the private schools do not generally address the high costs of Special Ed in anyway near the levels mandated by a public system, I doubt there would be a hugh savings if they could somehow magically find (cough had succeeded in their mission cough) enough clergy to fill the teaching and administrative positions.

People don't want to consider the possibility that these schools have failed. For at least five decades the private Catholic (run) schools have actively poached and cherry picked from the primary public system in order to feed the diminishing populations of their over-built secondaries. For at least three decades they have been closing elementaries to the deference of the higher profile secondaries.

Speculation but I think it's a fair question to ask the alums of these inner city private schools that for so long have poached, why they did not become vested in the mission? Maybe the simple asking of the question will get a few of those alums to rethink and remember their values. What is more important, a fifth McMansion and gold lame baby seats for their own kids or the religious and public OR private academic education of a 7 year old living without Winter heat in the old neighborhood?


Instead of increased efforts towards proselytization and sharing the word, private schools attempted to complete rosters by poaching and cherry picking from the public systems and raise revenue by politicing public money. They seriously and selfishly harmed the synergy in their feeder schools and in the public systems, particularly in the inner cities with their high rate of special ed, counseling and vocational training needs (all the higher cost aspects of education not addressed by secondary "Catholic" schools).

To pick a decade, I'd say 50s-60s would be about the time the private Catholics began to over build and move out of the Central ethnic cities and abandoned their mandates. It's killing both systems, when by now, the private Catholic, if they had indeed succeeded in their mission, would be fully endowed, nearly free schools serving the neighborhoods that gave them birth. So it's still on my mind, where's the money going? Is the revenue generated by the high schools being used for other means and when a school hits a diminishing return, is it abandoned for higher returns? The economics of these schools, do not make sense. Hell, one good basketball player, let alone a few CEOs could boost a school into economic security. Why do the alums not value the education supplied by their alma maters or is it the changed diversity of the neighborhoods in which the schools lie?


These schools have failed to generate a self sustainable clergy. They have sacrificed mission at the developmental ages for the more high profile secondary. They have failed to keep their alums, Catholic or not, vested in the supposed mission. They have failed to generate endowment.

They have failed.

A lot of Catholic high schools are surviving and thriving (three in the immediate Dayton area). Education expense, like everything else, is constantly increasing.
Those that succeed either are located in very affluent areas, like Alter, or they are really successful at raising money, like CJ. At a school like CJ the alums really do buy in and support the mission. Why don't the "poaching" comments also apply to public schools who obviouslt recruit like Wayne? I don't ever hear anyone accusing CJ or Carroll of recruiting. Alter football gets accused occasionally, but pretty much all of their basketball players have always come from catholic grade schools. For every Moeller there seems to be a Wayne.
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Old 07-08-17, 08:02 AM
Termite2 Termite2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
...............................

As the private schools do not generally address the high costs of Special Ed in anyway near the levels mandated by a public system, I doubt there would be a hugh savings if they could somehow magically find (cough had succeeded in their mission cough) enough clergy to fill the teaching and administrative positions.

..................................

Odd, the best schools for special need students in this area are catholic; they even have students that the local public school districts pay* for them to attend.

* or more accurately, the feds and state
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Old 07-08-17, 09:57 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by Looseball View Post
A lot of Catholic high schools are surviving and thriving (three in the immediate Dayton area). Education expense, like everything else, is constantly increasing.
Those that succeed either are located in very affluent areas, like Alter, or they are really successful at raising money, like CJ. At a school like CJ the alums really do buy in and support the mission. Why don't the "poaching" comments also apply to public schools who obviouslt recruit like Wayne? I don't ever hear anyone accusing CJ or Carroll of recruiting. Alter football gets accused occasionally, but pretty much all of their basketball players have always come from catholic grade schools. For every Moeller there seems to be a Wayne.
Mine is a topic in general, to challenge the notion that St. Anthony's and private school that have followed a similar model really are a "success." It was not an endictment on individuals or specific schools.


To remind, in my first post I noted, I don't care who supplies the education to my neighborhood. I want it to be good. I want it to be stable. Now given that my neighborhood has an extremely high poverty and working poor population, doesn't that sound like the priority of service you were brought up with, in Church? We used to have a nicely balanced duel system of public and private elementaries. The Church abadoned first the elementaries and middle schools to put their money into the higher profile Secondaries, none of which reside in the neighborhood. That's not "success."

Whether a public school "poaches", is irrelevant to what the Church does.

It IS the job of a public school to let everyone in. It is the job of the Public system to perform the job without triaging demographics they will permit entrance. It is the job of the Public to close if it's no longer needed. Likewise, I want them to do it well and with stability. Most certainly I would challenge any organization whose operation or intent is to prevent or inhibit or otherwise damage the ability of education being provided to ALL God's children, even if that damage is being done by private schools run by the Church.

Either do the job, or get out of the way of those trying to do the job. But certainly don't "close," and abandon those most in need for those most in luxury and try to call yourself a "success."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Termite2 View Post
Odd, the best schools for special need students in this area are catholic; they even have students that the local public school districts pay* for them to attend.

* or more accurately, the feds and state
Why is that "odd?" I don't doubt you. I don't challenge you. I don't even feel a need to find evidence that might challenge you. But if it's true then isn't it as it should be? If they have filled an educational need that the local Public Service is not able and that's not by inhibiting the Public Service in anyway, then isn't it as it should be? Not "odd?"
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  #29  
Old 07-08-17, 11:41 AM
Myron Myron is offline
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Good stuff, eastisbest
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  #30  
Old 07-08-17, 12:08 PM
Termite2 Termite2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
...............................
Why is that "odd?" I don't doubt you. I don't challenge you. I don't even feel a need to find evidence that might challenge you. But if it's true then isn't it as it should be? If they have filled an educational need that the local Public Service is not able and that's not by inhibiting the Public Service in anyway, then isn't it as it should be? Not "odd?"
If it is true? Unfortunately; know it to be true.
Odd that you are unaware that there are catholic special needs schools; in Cincinnati, there is St Rita's, St Joseph Villa, St Aloysius, Linden Grove or The Springer school and there are some private Christian schools also that specialize in special needs students.
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