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  #31  
Old 06-30-16, 10:35 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Was at US Club Soccer Regionals this weekend.

It was hot so coaches and refs agreed to water breaks each half. No problem there of course.

The thing I found odd was that the ref actually kept the clock running through both breaks, taking about 8 minutes off of a 70 minute game that was pretty even and ended 1-0.

I found that quite bizarre to lose that much time.

Is this normal?

I've done breaks before while reffing games but always paused the time or just broke the game down into quarters to make things easier.
Maybe because it was a tournament they wanted to keep things on schedule. I think I have seen it both ways over the years. It seems to me the individual league games the ref stopped the clock where in tournaments they kept it going to keep on schedule.
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  #32  
Old 06-30-16, 01:34 PM
kingpower kingpower is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Was at US Club Soccer Regionals this weekend.

It was hot so coaches and refs agreed to water breaks each half. No problem there of course.

The thing I found odd was that the ref actually kept the clock running through both breaks, taking about 8 minutes off of a 70 minute game that was pretty even and ended 1-0.

I found that quite bizarre to lose that much time.

Is this normal?

I've done breaks before while reffing games but always paused the time or just broke the game down into quarters to make things easier.
You NEVER stop the clock in a soccer game (unless it's high school). The ref should have kept notice of how long the break was and then added that amount of time to the end of the half on top of any other added time that was needed for injuries/substitutions etc.
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  #33  
Old 06-30-16, 01:57 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by kingpower View Post
You NEVER stop the clock in a soccer game (unless it's high school). The ref should have kept notice of how long the break was and then added that amount of time to the end of the half on top of any other added time that was needed for injuries/substitutions etc.
LOL. this ain't the world cup. In most youth soccer tournaments keeping on schedule is more important than the games...even at the larger ones. I have rarely seen stoppage time added in a tournament. Even seen a game end while an injured player is on the field waiting for medical staff to take them off on a stretcher to an ambulance.

If the directors are allowing for water breaks and excluding it in the game time, I am fine with with the ref stopping and restarting the clock. Accomplished the same thing really? And since the refs are doing multiple games in the same heat as the players, its better than them trying to remember if that break was 5 minutes or was that the game before...
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  #34  
Old 06-30-16, 02:14 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Maybe because it was a tournament they wanted to keep things on schedule. I think I have seen it both ways over the years. It seems to me the individual league games the ref stopped the clock where in tournaments they kept it going to keep on schedule.
It was the last game of the day at 530 so the schedule thing to me doesn't hold water. They were already behind about 30 minutes, perhaps because of water breaks, but what does that matter?

If you're gonna agree to water breaks, just set your time to quarters. That seems easy enough. Give em 90 seconds to run over and back. Problem solved.

One of the parents of the opposing steam even said the refs the day before added the time. He was clearly keeping time too and was shocked at how much time was left off. Our team lost so I was clearly more annoyed, but you could tell that even he thought it was pretty poor.
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  #35  
Old 06-30-16, 02:33 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
LOL. this ain't the world cup. In most youth soccer tournaments keeping on schedule is more important than the games...even at the larger ones. I have rarely seen stoppage time added in a tournament. Even seen a game end while an injured player is on the field waiting for medical staff to take them off on a stretcher to an ambulance.

If the directors are allowing for water breaks and excluding it in the game time, I am fine with with the ref stopping and restarting the clock. Accomplished the same thing really? And since the refs are doing multiple games in the same heat as the players, its better than them trying to remember if that break was 5 minutes or was that the game before...
It wasn't that hot. Maybe 85-88. Not 99 degrees or anything extreme. And the whole crew was off the game before.

We did get stoppage time in one of our earlier games, I think the ref crew for our last game just missed the boat on rules for this particular tournament. He did the subs much different, making the subbed player clear the field before the sub came on, and made every kick a ceremonial free kick. Every single kick. Each team was stopped at least once from taking them quickly.

If this were a rec game, whatever, but this was a tournament 2 states away with teams from the Dakotas to Kentucky. There should be a level of professionalism and especially continuity involved.

But I guess that's why we need more folks to step up and ref

Last edited by EastYoungstown; 06-30-16 at 02:46 PM..
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  #36  
Old 06-30-16, 02:49 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
It wasn't that hot. Maybe 85-88. Not 99 degrees or anything extreme. And the whole crew was off the game before.

We did get stoppage time in one of our earlier games, I think the ref crew for our last game just missed the boat on rules for this particular tournament. He did the subs much different, making the subbed player clear the field before the sub came on, and made every kick a ceremonial free kick. Every single kick. Each team was stopped at least once from taking them quickly.

If this were a rec game, whatever, but this was a tournament 2 states away with teams from the Dakotas to Kentucky. There should be a level of professionalism and especially continuity involved.

But I guess that's why we need more folks to step up and ref
That part bugs me....because that is usually only a single ref in the whole tournament that does this. If its a tournament rule then everyone follow it but the way it happens where it is just one game, it appears that the ref is just doing it because that is the way he likes it.

But by and large I don't get too critical of the way the refs handle the games usually. It's a thankless job and one that I haven't signed up for yet but may as my kids start leaving the house.
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  #37  
Old 06-30-16, 02:55 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
That part bugs me....because that is usually only a single ref in the whole tournament that does this. If its a tournament rule then everyone follow it but the way it happens where it is just one game, it appears that the ref is just doing it because that is the way he likes it.

But by and large I don't get too critical of the way the refs handle the games usually. It's a thankless job and one that I haven't signed up for yet but may as my kids start leaving the house.
Some refs think they are the star of the show, so they have to do some things differently to make themselves stand out. What they are really doing is disrupting the game.

I started doing it for a couple reasons:

-Coaching rec is the most thankless job in the world and parents are nuts
-I figure if I'm gonna be at the fields all day with several kids playing, I'm gonna make a few bucks
-My oldest plays at a club that travels a fair bit. Usually i can get games at the tournaments he plays in to help with the travel costs. At some places they will even give you a room for the weekend.
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  #38  
Old 08-22-16, 12:06 PM
Upper 90 Upper 90 is offline
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Ok, need help understanding item 2. Watched a 9v9 game Sat. I thought I understood it but now not so sure. Let's say someone heads the ball near the spot, where does the IFK take place?

1)If a player in a U11 (10 yrs. old) or younger age group match deliberately heads the ball in a game with any portion of their head, an indirect free kick
(IFK) is to be awarded to the opposing team from
the spot of the
infraction.

2) If within the goal area, the IFK should be taken on the goal area line parallel to the goal line at the point nearest to where the
infraction occurred
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  #39  
Old 08-23-16, 10:44 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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#2 is to say if the event happens within the six-yard box (more common terminology for "goal area"), the ball is moved outside of the six-yard box. It's the same application for any other indirect free kick, it can't be taken within the six-yard box.
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  #40  
Old 08-24-16, 11:23 AM
Upper 90 Upper 90 is offline
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Thanks. In the game I saw the heading occurred right around the spot or so. The ref moved the ball to the end goal line where the 18 box meets the goal line. Almost like a short indirect corner. I am thinking it should have been taken from the spot of the infraction. So for heading that happens in the goal box those should be moved out to the closest spot on the 18 box. Is that right?
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  #41  
Old 08-24-16, 07:42 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Upper 90,

If the violation occurred around the "spot" (i.e. the PK dot), the indirect free kick should have occurred right there. It's only when the infraction occurs in the six-yard box that you have to pull it out. At least that's my understanding.
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  #42  
Old 08-30-16, 08:48 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Question about the yellow card rule in HS:

How long does the player need to sit?

Can they come back in at the next available opportunity?

Thanks
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  #43  
Old 08-30-16, 07:45 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Question about the yellow card rule in HS:

How long does the player need to sit?

Can they come back in at the next available opportunity?

Thanks
In a high school game, the player that is given a yellow card must come out of the game (and sit for "one play"). He can come on at the next available substitute opportunity.

Many times you'll see kid come off for a yellow, and the coach put him right back at midfield for a substitution.
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  #44  
Old 09-02-16, 08:33 AM
cougarfan2 cougarfan2 is offline
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Here are some gems from a game last night
Center saw the game was lopsided early. Called for a running clock.
Then called for a water break that lasted 5 minutes while clock ran.
All to avoid an embarrassing game. It was 6-0 after 20 minutes.
All fair and observant in my opinion.

Then called a PK on a questionable contact made just outside the box
Keeper complained and was told "you looked bored so I thought you could use some action"
???
After the PK was scored the keeper punted the ball towards the center but really boomed it well past the center line.
Yellow card was then given. for? "Delay of game"
you ask for a running clock, take a water break under overcast skies and 75 degree weather and give a card for delaying a game?

He also permitted "do overs" for incorrect throw ins

After the game apologized to keeper for "ruining your shutout" and said "I really should not have called that pk"

Lovely. And they wonder why they get the reputation they do at the HS level.
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  #45  
Old 09-02-16, 12:37 PM
therealfutbol therealfutbol is offline
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A good referee is hard to find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cougarfan2 View Post
Here are some gems from a game last night
Center saw the game was lopsided early. Called for a running clock.
Then called for a water break that lasted 5 minutes while clock ran.
All to avoid an embarrassing game. It was 6-0 after 20 minutes.
All fair and observant in my opinion.

Then called a PK on a questionable contact made just outside the box
Keeper complained and was told "you looked bored so I thought you could use some action"
???
After the PK was scored the keeper punted the ball towards the center but really boomed it well past the center line.
Yellow card was then given. for? "Delay of game"
you ask for a running clock, take a water break under overcast skies and 75 degree weather and give a card for delaying a game?

He also permitted "do overs" for incorrect throw ins

After the game apologized to keeper for "ruining your shutout" and said "I really should not have called that pk"

Lovely. And they wonder why they get the reputation they do at the HS level.
There are very and I mean very few good HS referees in the whole area. Most of them are dying to be part of the action, they think fans are there to watch them, they try to be funny and cute, and talk to this person and that person, unfortunately most of them have not played the game and don't even understand it, they are there for a little (and I mean little) exercise and a small pay check. The best referees, you never even know that they are there and that rarely ever happens. With all that said I would not want that job.
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  #46  
Old 09-06-16, 10:09 AM
soref soref is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealfutbol View Post
There are very and I mean very few good HS referees in the whole area. Most of them are dying to be part of the action, they think fans are there to watch them, they try to be funny and cute, and talk to this person and that person, unfortunately most of them have not played the game and don't even understand it, they are there for a little (and I mean little) exercise and a small pay check. The best referees, you never even know that they are there and that rarely ever happens. With all that said I would not want that job.
I wouldn't say that 5-1/4 miles in an 80 minute match is "little (and I mean little) exercise"
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  #47  
Old 09-07-16, 08:50 AM
therealfutbol therealfutbol is offline
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I think you are being generous

Quote:
Originally Posted by soref View Post
I wouldn't say that 5-1/4 miles in an 80 minute match is "little (and I mean little) exercise"
If you think these HS refs are running 5 miles a game, i think your distance measurement tool is BROKEN, as I travel and watch different games I will get you some pics of these guys, again not saying all but many don't look like they ran 5 miles in a season, I would say a 1/3 to 1/2 look like they are 6-7 months pregnant and I am talking about the guys. Give me a break!
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  #48  
Old 09-07-16, 11:10 AM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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I'm going to agree with you. There are many referees out there that need to either retire or get in better shape.

However, I notice that you are referring to the CRs. Well let me tell you, there are far more ARs that simply cannot keep up with the speed of the matches. It's embarrassing to the CR and other AR. Those are also the guys that get higher tournament assignments, too. For example, last year's DI Regional Final or State Semi played at Centerville had a larger AR that couldn't keep up with the speed of those kids. If I recall, there were several offside situations that were missed.

Whether players, coaches, fans, colleagues think I'm a good referee or not, I'll be damn sure that I bust my to keep up with the pace of play. It's an injustice to your partners and to the kids playing the game if you can't keep up with them. Yes, many guys out there do lackadaisical effort just to get paid. They are also USSF referees, too. They should be in great shape by the high school season. But they are not. Players, coaches, and fans have every right to b.tch when that kind of effort is put into a match.

Just an fyi, 5 and 1/4 miles is on the lower end of average for me for an 80 minute match. I'll make some bad and incorrect calls, no doubt, and I'll own up to them, but I won't cheat ya on my effort.
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  #49  
Old 09-07-16, 12:52 PM
soref soref is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealfutbol View Post
If you think these HS refs are running 5 miles a game, i think your distance measurement tool is BROKEN, as I travel and watch different games I will get you some pics of these guys, again not saying all but many don't look like they ran 5 miles in a season, I would say a 1/3 to 1/2 look like they are 6-7 months pregnant and I am talking about the guys. Give me a break!
Feel free to let me know what match you will be at each week and if I happen to have the middle I'll let you see my GPS or my "distance measurement tool" to check out my distance.

On a decent size field and a fairly competitive match I will easily put in 5-1/4 - 5-1/2 miles during 80 minutes of play. Now, you do cover yourself by not lumping all refs in to your statement by saying "very and I mean very few" that live up to your standard of being an adequate referee but then say 1/3 - 1/2 you have an issue with. I agree with Phatneff in saying that there are quite a few referees in HS that don't look the part or don't put in the effort that the majority of referees you would normally see in the Spring on any given U16+ USSF match but those referees aren't committed to HS as they are to USSF so SOMEONE has to work the games. We beat this horse year in and year out but I have yet heard anyone come up with a viable solution or seen anyone put any effort towards correcting the problem we face.
Just do me a favor and don't lump almost all referees into a group that in all actuality is quite smaller than you try to make it out to be. The majority of the referees that I know and have worked with that are using a whistle on a varsity match are out there giving a great effort toward this game and as you stated not getting a very good paycheck for the job they are doing and the crap that they have to take from the coaches and the handful of know-it-all criticizing parents that do nothing but yell, and complain the entire game mostly about rules and management that they have no clue about.
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  #50  
Old 09-07-16, 02:14 PM
therealfutbol therealfutbol is offline
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I understand but

Quote:
Originally Posted by soref View Post
Feel free to let me know what match you will be at each week and if I happen to have the middle I'll let you see my GPS or my "distance measurement tool" to check out my distance.

On a decent size field and a fairly competitive match I will easily put in 5-1/4 - 5-1/2 miles during 80 minutes of play. Now, you do cover yourself by not lumping all refs in to your statement by saying "very and I mean very few" that live up to your standard of being an adequate referee but then say 1/3 - 1/2 you have an issue with. I agree with Phatneff in saying that there are quite a few referees in HS that don't look the part or don't put in the effort that the majority of referees you would normally see in the Spring on any given U16+ USSF match but those referees aren't committed to HS as they are to USSF so SOMEONE has to work the games. We beat this horse year in and year out but I have yet heard anyone come up with a viable solution or seen anyone put any effort towards correcting the problem we face.
Just do me a favor and don't lump almost all referees into a group that in all actuality is quite smaller than you try to make it out to be. The majority of the referees that I know and have worked with that are using a whistle on a varsity match are out there giving a great effort toward this game and as you stated not getting a very good paycheck for the job they are doing and the crap that they have to take from the coaches and the handful of know-it-all criticizing parents that do nothing but yell, and complain the entire game mostly about rules and management that they have no clue about.
Again I did not say everybody, I do appreciate you passion and your stand, here is a photo I took of one of those guys I am talking about, I blurred the face, but you are telling me this guy runs 5 miles a game? You might but I don't think he saw 5 miles in a long time, maybe 5 meals in a day but not 5 miles in a game.
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  #51  
Old 09-07-16, 09:45 PM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealfutbol View Post
Again I did not say everybody, I do appreciate you passion and your stand, here is a photo I took of one of those guys I am talking about, I blurred the face, but you are telling me this guy runs 5 miles a game? You might but I don't think he saw 5 miles in a long time, maybe 5 meals in a day but not 5 miles in a game.
Can you say which schools were playing? My guess is that it would be a DIII girl's game. That's one thing you haven't specified (or else I missed it)............what games are you watching. The better referees will be on the better games. DI has the majority of those games, but DII and DIII do have some decent games as well, just not as much.

Just an fyi.........soref was the CR for a DI State Final game last year, if I recall, and does college games as well as USSF games. I think he knows how much he runs each game.
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  #52  
Old 09-08-16, 09:10 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealfutbol View Post
There are very and I mean very few good HS referees in the whole area. Most of them are dying to be part of the action, they think fans are there to watch them, they try to be funny and cute, and talk to this person and that person, unfortunately most of them have not played the game and don't even understand it, they are there for a little (and I mean little) exercise and a small pay check. The best referees, you never even know that they are there and that rarely ever happens. With all that said I would not want that job.
If you did the job, you would have a lot more respect for it.

if you think it's bad now, wait til next year. The pay will drop drastically and you're going to lose some of the real good ones.
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  #53  
Old 09-08-16, 09:11 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealfutbol View Post
If you think these HS refs are running 5 miles a game, i think your distance measurement tool is BROKEN, as I travel and watch different games I will get you some pics of these guys, again not saying all but many don't look like they ran 5 miles in a season, I would say a 1/3 to 1/2 look like they are 6-7 months pregnant and I am talking about the guys. Give me a break!
I keep track. It's usually between 5 and 8.
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  #54  
Old 09-08-16, 10:42 AM
therealfutbol therealfutbol is offline
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I love how defensive you all are

Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
I keep track. It's usually between 5 and 8.
Read all what I wrote, I did not say all, I said a certain percentage, you want to insist all is great and that's why you lose credibility, the first step in fixing something is admitting there is a short coming, I wish I had a perfect solution, I don't. The only way it could possibly work if you get some of the good young players interested but they burn out quickly because of the junk they get from the parents. Not sure why you assume I did not ref because I did for years, was not worth it and that's why I stopped, I am almost 60 years old and been around the game pretty much my whole life, played it, coached it and refereed. You all elect to continue to do it and some do a good job but many don't and that's my point. The pic I sent was from a referee that did JVB high school game in the dumbest system on the planet the 2 man system (i understand short of refs), he could not keep up and looked like he might pass out at any moment. On another subject I did not attend the Mason Centerville game but was told a way too old of a gentleman refereed, could not keep up, game had to be stopped multiple times so he can run over and talk to the linesman because he could not hear and was not able to watch the play and keep an eye on either linesman, many times made calls while 30-40+ yards away from the play. Many of the parents that never complain were irate how unfit he was to referee such a high caliber game. You need to stop being so defensive and work on solutions, again you elect to be doing it, figure it out
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  #55  
Old 09-08-16, 07:25 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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The intention of "ask the ref" type threads is to discuss rules in terms of interpretations and applications, or for that matter certain mechanics/coverage questions. It is not to diatribe about specific officials or types of officials.

As a general point, there is a manpower shortage in terms of high school soccer officiating - as there is within almost all high school sports. Given that situation, resources will be allocated in certain ways to make sure all games get covered.

Unless and until there is more willingness for younger people to officiate the high school soccer games, these type of situations are going to happen. One solution I've heard floated around is a suggestion that each high school coaching staff has to have one of its members be a certified/licensed/registered (whatever verbiage you want to use) official - they could officiate games involving the other gender on non-game dates, if that caveat was needed to avoid conflicts. Just a way to bolster the pool.
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  #56  
Old 09-08-16, 08:22 PM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therealfutbol View Post
Read all what I wrote, I did not say all, I said a certain percentage, you want to insist all is great and that's why you lose credibility, the first step in fixing something is admitting there is a short coming, I wish I had a perfect solution, I don't. The only way it could possibly work if you get some of the good young players interested but they burn out quickly because of the junk they get from the parents. Not sure why you assume I did not ref because I did for years, was not worth it and that's why I stopped, I am almost 60 years old and been around the game pretty much my whole life, played it, coached it and refereed. You all elect to continue to do it and some do a good job but many don't and that's my point. The pic I sent was from a referee that did JVB high school game in the dumbest system on the planet the 2 man system (i understand short of refs), he could not keep up and looked like he might pass out at any moment. On another subject I did not attend the Mason Centerville game but was told a way too old of a gentleman refereed, could not keep up, game had to be stopped multiple times so he can run over and talk to the linesman because he could not hear and was not able to watch the play and keep an eye on either linesman, many times made calls while 30-40+ yards away from the play. Many of the parents that never complain were irate how unfit he was to referee such a high caliber game. You need to stop being so defensive and work on solutions, again you elect to be doing it, figure it out
All JV games have the 2-man system. You didn't answer the question, though. Was it DI, DII, or DIII?

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  #57  
Old 09-09-16, 06:47 AM
soref soref is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phatneff View Post

Just an fyi.........soref was the CR for a DI State Final game last year, if I recall, and does college games as well as USSF games. I think he knows how much he runs each game.
I had the 2012 DI match with Olentangy Liberty and Sylvania Southview.
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  #58  
Old 09-09-16, 06:52 AM
soref soref is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post

if you think it's bad now, wait til next year. The pay will drop drastically and you're going to lose some of the real good ones.

This is the first that I have heard about pay dropping and I'm interested in hearing what you have heard. Feel free to PM me your information if you don't mind.
FWIW if pay drops next year I will guarantee a drop off in higher level officials. The switch to ArbiterPay this year already has the majority of officials upset because of the tax implications so a drop in pay would make it worse. Why would I ref a HS Varsity match that pays $57 - $60 when I can ref a local NAIA, NJCAA or NCAA DII/DIII match and make anywhere from $160 - $190???
Indiana HS officials are making up to $150 to ref JV/V double headers.
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  #59  
Old 09-09-16, 07:32 AM
therealfutbol therealfutbol is offline
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D1 Centerville

Quote:
Originally Posted by phatneff View Post
All JV games have the 2-man system. You didn't answer the question, though. Was it DI, DII, or DIII?

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D1 in Centerville
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  #60  
Old 09-09-16, 08:03 AM
phatneff phatneff is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soref View Post
I had the 2012 DI match with Olentangy Liberty and Sylvania Southview.
My bad. I thought you had a DI match last year, too.
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