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  #1  
Old 01-15-19, 07:08 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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NFHS and OHSAA With a Plea For Civility

It's time for something to change in regards to the way people act at sporting events.

https://ohsaa.org/NEDAB/News-from-th...chool-Athletes
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  #2  
Old 01-15-19, 07:57 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Not speaking for anyone elses experience but knowing our crowd rather well,... it's rarely the parents of the players.
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  #3  
Old 01-15-19, 11:55 PM
1 time 1 time is offline
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Again some schools have a policy that adults get 1 warning then they’re suspended for a half year. 2nd official offense they are suspended for 1 calendar year. Takes some ball@ for a school to do this. Most schools don’t have the ball@ to do this.
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  #4  
Old 01-16-19, 12:38 AM
Yellow_Jacket06 Yellow_Jacket06 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Not speaking for anyone elses experience but knowing our crowd rather well,... it's rarely the parents of the players.
That's generally what I've noticed as well. Not the parents or the student section. It's usually from former alum (most with no kids) who are still trying to live vicariously through the accomplishments of the current players/teams.
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  #5  
Old 01-16-19, 01:32 AM
FootballFan1795 FootballFan1795 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yellow_Jacket06 View Post
That's generally what I've noticed as well. Not the parents or the student section. It's usually from former alum (most with no kids) who are still trying to live vicariously through the accomplishments of the current players/teams.
Especially short guys with stubby arms ( Raider6309)
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  #6  
Old 01-16-19, 06:53 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by Yellow_Jacket06 View Post
That's generally what I've noticed as well. Not the parents or the student section. It's usually from former alum (most with no kids) who are still trying to live vicariously through the accomplishments of the current players/teams.
That finsihed my observation also. I might add, "hangers on." Kids or adults that wish some connection to a player can be very abusive towards officials. Rarely parents.

The fun ones are the ex jocks getting on the case of an official that was an ex jock at the same time or played for a rival. But the fun can be seen. It's generally amusing.
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  #7  
Old 01-16-19, 08:15 AM
Teddy_Westside Teddy_Westside is offline
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Again some schools have a policy that adults get 1 warning then they’re suspended for a half year. 2nd official offense they are suspended for 1 calendar year. Takes some ball@ for a school to do this. Most schools don’t have the ball@ to do this.
Absolutely!! I watch at some schools fans acting like fools and the A.Ds just sitting there doing nothing while their school gets embarrassed. They wont do a thing until the referees ask them to. Its not the refs job to police the fans, they have enough to worry about.
I get reacting to a call in the moment, but when fans are still reacting 5 minutes later and yelling insults and obscenities, that fan needs to be removed. Do your jobs ADs!!!!
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  #8  
Old 01-16-19, 10:03 AM
MSL MSL is offline
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The behavior of fans and coaches is certainly not blameless with respect to why officials are quitting at alarming rates and not being replaced.

However, not surprisingly, the OHSAA doesn't want to admit the other big problem-the "good ol' boys club."

Young officials put in years at the subvarsity level, go to camps, get hired for college basketball, get their Class 1, and yet can't crack the varsity ranks despite being more competent than many of the older guys regularly working varsity. At some point they decide it's not worth officiating lower-level games that they're overqualified for and they stick with college or just quit altogether.

If the deck is stacked against you no matter how much you invest in yourself, eventually you're going to get burnt out. If you work at a company and are constantly passed over for promotions, either you figure out what you need to do better or you go elsewhere.

I understand that assigners and coaches are more comfortable with officials that they've seen before. There's nothing wrong with that and there is something to be said for experience. However, it is a big problem when young, athletic, competent officials are consistently passed over for old guys with guts that struggle to get in position. And don't tell me it doesn't happen-it happens all the time.

I also understand that many people use "politics" as a crutch when they aren't as good as they think they. But to act like politics and the good ol' boys system do not bear a significant portion of the blame in why officials quit is just nonsensical. And until guilty assigners get the hint, I don't think it will matter what is done to fix behavior.
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  #9  
Old 01-16-19, 11:33 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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I'm not sure how or why we got to a point in society where the socially-acceptable norms of conduct go out the window in high school sports.

Fans who run their mouth at officials constantly are the same ones that say "kids these days" when young people are misbehaving or being disrespectful to authority; it's so hypocritical.

If you as an adult can't control yourself over "bad officiating" at a high school game, you're best off just staying home. You certainly shouldn't play the victim card when you're shown the door.

For all the people who think the ref shortage is due to "thin skin" on the part of officials rather than outrageous conduct of adults, you are part of the problem. If you can convince conferences to double the pay for officials and we still have a shortage, then maybe we can have a conversation about how officials need thicker skin. Newsflash: your admission to a game doesn't give you the right to act like a buffoon. If you don't want to get thrown out by a "thin skinned" official, don't act like a fool in the first place then pass the buck to someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL View Post
The behavior of fans and coaches is certainly not blameless with respect to why officials are quitting at alarming rates and not being replaced.

However, not surprisingly, the OHSAA doesn't want to admit the other big problem-the "good ol' boys club."

Young officials put in years at the subvarsity level, go to camps, get hired for college basketball, get their Class 1, and yet can't crack the varsity ranks despite being more competent than many of the older guys regularly working varsity. At some point they decide it's not worth officiating lower-level games that they're overqualified for and they stick with college or just quit altogether.

If the deck is stacked against you no matter how much you invest in yourself, eventually you're going to get burnt out. If you work at a company and are constantly passed over for promotions, either you figure out what you need to do better or you go elsewhere.

I understand that assigners and coaches are more comfortable with officials that they've seen before. There's nothing wrong with that and there is something to be said for experience. However, it is a big problem when young, athletic, competent officials are consistently passed over for old guys with guts that struggle to get in position. And don't tell me it doesn't happen-it happens all the time.

I also understand that many people use "politics" as a crutch when they aren't as good as they think they. But to act like politics and the good ol' boys system do not bear a significant portion of the blame in why officials quit is just nonsensical. And until guilty assigners get the hint, I don't think it will matter what is done to fix behavior.
There is certainly some truth to this, but even if officiating was a 100% apolitical meritocracy, I still think we'd have a shortage due to outrageous adult behavior.
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  #10  
Old 01-16-19, 03:48 PM
ThePrepGuru ThePrepGuru is offline
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It's common at many school districts to see the athletic director, principal, and superintendent all standing in the football or basketball facilities for high school varsity contests. And yet, it is a rarity for any of them to discipline fans, especially adult fans because most of these public school districts are trying to pass levies. It is even worse in the private schools, where every tuition payment counts toward the bottom line, and angering the wrong parent can result in the withdraw of one or more students from the school. It is good to finally see the state associations taking the lead in this initiative. Maybe the school administrators will develop some backbone now?
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  #11  
Old 01-16-19, 03:54 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePrepGuru View Post
It's common at many school districts to see the athletic director, principal, and superintendent all standing in the football or basketball facilities for high school varsity contests. And yet, it is a rarity for any of them to discipline fans, especially adult fans because most of these public school districts are trying to pass levies. It is even worse in the private schools, where every tuition payment counts toward the bottom line, and angering the wrong parent can result in the withdraw of one or more students from the school. It is good to finally see the state associations taking the lead in this initiative. Maybe the school administrators will develop some backbone now?
It is my understanding that Centerville recently had a team meeting, to include parents and the AD, to address the behavior of the fans (parents) during games. From what I've heard, they were told that fans would begin to be banned from games if the behavior continued.

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  #12  
Old 01-16-19, 03:57 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePrepGuru View Post
It's common at many school districts to see the athletic director, principal, and superintendent all standing in the football or basketball facilities for high school varsity contests. And yet, it is a rarity for any of them to discipline fans, especially adult fans because most of these public school districts are trying to pass levies. It is even worse in the private schools, where every tuition payment counts toward the bottom line, and angering the wrong parent can result in the withdraw of one or more students from the school. It is good to finally see the state associations taking the lead in this initiative. Maybe the school administrators will develop some backbone now?
It's going to take a lot more than a PSA from the OHSAA for behavior to change.

The best way to get Mom and Dad's attention is when little Johnnie doesn't get to play anymore. And that's probably what it will take before we see real improvement in behavior-games getting canceled every night.

It's sad, but it's been coming for awhile now. Schools have been complicit in allowing this nonsense to go on, and now they are paying the price.
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  #13  
Old 01-16-19, 04:09 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Are we going to get to the point where spectators will no longer be allowed to watch the games live?
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  #14  
Old 01-16-19, 04:10 PM
HardCorps HardCorps is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
It is my understanding that Centerville recently had a team meeting, to include parents and the AD, to address the behavior of the fans (parents) during games. From what I've heard, they were told that fans would begin to be banned from games if the behavior continued.

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I wonder if anything was said about whiny coaches.
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  #15  
Old 01-16-19, 04:12 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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I wonder if anything was said about whiny coaches.
That brings up the argument that a program, to include players, parents and fans, usually follow the lead of the person at the head of the program, i.e. the coach.

That's not a dig at Centerville and their coach, because honestly I know very little about him to make that claim. That was just a generality being made about how much influence a head coach can have over how an entire program represents itself.

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  #16  
Old 01-16-19, 04:38 PM
HardCorps HardCorps is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
That brings up the argument that a program, to include players, parents and fans, usually follow the lead of the person at the head of the program, i.e. the coach.

That's not a dig at Centerville and their coach, because honestly I know very little about him to make that claim. That was just a generality being made about how much influence a head coach can have over how an entire program represents itself.

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I agree with your point. There are a lot of coaches that put on a show whether they are passive aggressive about it to if they are a nut case.
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  #17  
Old 01-17-19, 09:34 AM
hoban2020 hoban2020 is offline
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NFHS and OHSAA With a Plea For Civility

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
Are we going to get to the point where spectators will no longer be allowed to watch the games live?

Or spectators can just go watch a game without acting out.


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  #18  
Old 01-17-19, 10:04 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
Are we going to get to the point where spectators will no longer be allowed to watch the games live?
It's happened....

https://www.abqjournal.com/1231723/p...la-valley.html

https://www.krqe.com/news/new-mexico...son/1491183507

https://www.whio.com/news/local/dayt...pbjW9aDAob9yI/
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  #19  
Old 01-17-19, 10:21 AM
HardCorps HardCorps is offline
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Originally Posted by hoban2020 View Post
Or spectators can just go watch a game without acting out.


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Lowering expectations is helpful too.
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  #20  
Old 01-17-19, 10:48 AM
JElder JElder is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
Are we going to get to the point where spectators will no longer be allowed to watch the games live?
Not necessarily, but we are getting to the point that athletics are going to be in real trouble in the next 10 years. Meaning there may not be any games to play or every school will have a Varsity only team because there's not enough officials to work the games.
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  #21  
Old 01-17-19, 12:26 PM
coltfan76 coltfan76 is offline
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What if referees just got better?
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  #22  
Old 01-17-19, 12:40 PM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Every community has an ethos and the values that community holds will vary from others in terms of what they value and the degree they value it. But if there is a general respect for all authority, sports is leisure and a means to an end, not the end itself, and there is an appreciation overall of others' efforts to provide this leisure and means to an end, then it seems that takes care of the problem. But of course not every community does respect authority or has it's perspective and priorities straight, so we get these ugly scenes and situations.

I also think asst and head coach behavior has something to do with it. Coaches historically have "worked" officials. Some might say that they have a duty to try to gain any advantage they can within limits. But when they go into all kinds of histrionics on almost every call that goes against them, all game long, season after season and their assistants are throwing fits, their fans and players are taking cues from that - and that becomes their habit of how they watch games - and it tends to worsen over time because human nature is to keep pressing the limits of what is acceptable. FWIW
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  #23  
Old 01-17-19, 12:48 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by coltfan76 View Post
What if referees just got better?
That begs the question, are high school referees really as bad as fans like you imply they are? Are officials underperforming by officiating standards, or by fans' standards? Or does social media simply point out more controversial (right or wrong) officiating decisions than ever before, making it seem like officiating incompetence is up, especially when anti-official opinions of situations are simply wrong according to the rules?
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  #24  
Old 01-17-19, 12:53 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
Every community has an ethos and the values that community holds will vary from others in terms of what they value and the degree they value it. But if there is a general respect for all authority, sports is leisure and a means to an end, not the end itself, and there is an appreciation overall of others' efforts to provide this leisure and means to an end, then it seems that takes care of the problem. But of course not every community does respect authority or has it's perspective and priorities straight, so we get these ugly scenes and situations.

I also think asst and head coach behavior has something to do with it. Coaches historically have "worked" officials. Some might say that they have a duty to try to gain any advantage they can within limits. But when they go into all kinds of histrionics on almost every call that goes against them, all game long, season after season and their assistants are throwing fits, their fans and players are taking cues from that - and that becomes their habit of how they watch games - and it tends to worsen over time because human nature is to keep pressing the limits of what is acceptable. FWIW
The behavior of coaches absolutely has an effect on how his team's players and fans act.

The coaches that bellyache and want an explanation on every call that goes against them don't get much attention from me or most any other experienced official. And they know this-coaches aren't stupid. They're trying to get the next call. Sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't.

And good officials tolerate zero misbehavior from assistant coaches. Questions are fine, but an assistant "throwing fits" in my game will result in a bench warning or an immediate technical foul depending on severity.
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Old 01-17-19, 01:17 PM
coltfan76 coltfan76 is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
That begs the question, are high school referees really as bad as fans like you imply they are? Are officials underperforming by officiating standards, or by fans' standards? Or does social media simply point out more controversial (right or wrong) officiating decisions than ever before, making it seem like officiating incompetence is up, especially when anti-official opinions of situations are simply wrong according to the rules?
I was just trying to be funny but since you took the time to answer seriously, I'll save you seriously.

I've seen some really bad stuff this year.
Just a few examples:
1. In a freshman game at St. X, the ref had the ball in between the first and second free throw. Instead of throwing it back to the shooter, he stopped, and told the guard from St. X who was down low and the big man who was up by the shooter to switch spots so that he could rebound.

2. In a game at Anderson, score tied with a minute left, player from West Clermont drives and gets fouled. Ref raises his hand, lifts the whistle to mouth, then decides not to make a call.

3. Game at West Clermont, WC has the ball in the front court. Kid theirs a bad pass that sails into the backcourt. WC couch calls for and us awarded a time out while the ball is bouncing loose in the backcourt. WC was then given possession on the side after the TO.

I understand missing calls but those three were pretty blatant mistakes.
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Old 01-17-19, 04:07 PM
HardCorps HardCorps is offline
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Originally Posted by coltfan76 View Post
I was just trying to be funny but since you took the time to answer seriously, I'll save you seriously.

I've seen some really bad stuff this year.
Just a few examples:
1. In a freshman game at St. X, the ref had the ball in between the first and second free throw. Instead of throwing it back to the shooter, he stopped, and told the guard from St. X who was down low and the big man who was up by the shooter to switch spots so that he could rebound.

2. In a game at Anderson, score tied with a minute left, player from West Clermont drives and gets fouled. Ref raises his hand, lifts the whistle to mouth, then decides not to make a call.

3. Game at West Clermont, WC has the ball in the front court. Kid theirs a bad pass that sails into the backcourt. WC couch calls for and us awarded a time out while the ball is bouncing loose in the backcourt. WC was then given possession on the side after the TO.

I understand missing calls but those three were pretty blatant mistakes.
I think the new mantra is, it is just part of the game. It could be worse and you could be watching a NCAA game and there is a terrible call and some big time announcer watches the same replay as you and either does not say a thing or agrees with a bad call.
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  #27  
Old 01-17-19, 04:24 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Must be the area I live in but I have never seen " over the top behavior from any fan ", coaches yes fans no, and I go to quite a few bball games. However can' t believe someone would quit being a zebra just because some fan is heckling him. If their is a shortage in refs. IMO it has more to do with people are just lazy today and don't want to run up and down the court.
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Old 01-17-19, 04:39 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by coltfan76 View Post
I was just trying to be funny but since you took the time to answer seriously, I'll save you seriously.



I've seen some really bad stuff this year.

Just a few examples:

1. In a freshman game at St. X, the ref had the ball in between the first and second free throw. Instead of throwing it back to the shooter, he stopped, and told the guard from St. X who was down low and the big man who was up by the shooter to switch spots so that he could rebound.



2. In a game at Anderson, score tied with a minute left, player from West Clermont drives and gets fouled. Ref raises his hand, lifts the whistle to mouth, then decides not to make a call.



3. Game at West Clermont, WC has the ball in the front court. Kid theirs a bad pass that sails into the backcourt. WC couch calls for and us awarded a time out while the ball is bouncing loose in the backcourt. WC was then given possession on the side after the TO.



I understand missing calls but those three were pretty blatant mistakes.
1) Not exactly sure what you're saying happened so won't comment.

2) It's the ref discression to call a foul or not. The ref may have felt a foul was coming and his initial response was to begin to call, and then changed his mind when he didn't see it. He also could have initially thought to call a foul and in that brief second was able to reassess what he saw and pull back before blowing the whistle. That's not an "bad call", that's just his decision. But you're a fan in the stands, you're going to see it how you want to.

3) When the whistle blew is not when the ref heard and acknowledged the timeout . I see this all the time, especially as a coach myself. Fans think when the whistle blew that's when the timeout was heard by the ref. When in fact it was heard prior and then acknowledged with the whistle. I'm thinking the ref heard the timeout call before the loss of possession and gave it to the coach. But again, you're a fan in the stands, you're going to see it how you want to.

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  #29  
Old 01-17-19, 04:41 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
Must be the area I live in but I have never seen " over the top behavior from any fan ", coaches yes fans no, and I go to quite a few bball games. However can' t believe someone would quit being a zebra just because some fan is heckling him. If their is a shortage in refs. IMO it has more to do with people are just lazy today and don't want to run up and down the court.
Wow, you've really never seen out of control fans? Man, you need to get out more. I've seen over the top fans at every level, from 5 year olds to the pros and every age in between, plus every sport.

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  #30  
Old 01-17-19, 05:44 PM
coltfan76 coltfan76 is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
1) Not exactly sure what you're saying happened so won't comment.

2) It's the ref discression to call a foul or not. The ref may have felt a foul was coming and his initial response was to begin to call, and then changed his mind when he didn't see it. He also could have initially thought to call a foul and in that brief second was able to reassess what he saw and pull back before blowing the whistle. That's not an "bad call", that's just his decision. But you're a fan in the stands, you're going to see it how you want to.

3) When the whistle blew is not when the ref heard and acknowledged the timeout . I see this all the time, especially as a coach myself. Fans think when the whistle blew that's when the timeout was heard by the ref. When in fact it was heard prior and then acknowledged with the whistle. I'm thinking the ref heard the timeout call before the loss of possession and gave it to the coach. But again, you're a fan in the stands, you're going to see it how you want to.

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1. The ref repositioned the home team's players to hello then rebound in a free throw situation.

2. Not sure what would have made him change his mind after he saw the initial contact, maybe he didn't think the West Cleaning player hot the for hard enough. Maybe he realized that it was a the ball game in the last minute and he didn't want to hurt the home team. Maybe he realized that both Anderson players that committed fould on the play has 4 fouls. But you're the red and you'll make excuses for other refs.

3. The pass was thrown from the baseline. The coach didn't ask for the timeout until the ball bounced in the backcourt. But again you're the ref and you'll just excuse fellow ref behavior. BTW, that call benefited my team so I'm not looking at it from a fans perspective, I'm looking at from a not a moron perspective.
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