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  #1  
Old 05-10-18, 11:24 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Inflated entries in conference and Districts

Coaches,

I am posting this as a coach that maintains some integrity by not putting garbage entries in for meets trying to get an advantage in lane assignments.

How bad is this issue for you? In our conference and district there are the usual suspects who put in ridiculous times for their kids. THey enter hand times or even career PR's that occurred 2 years ago.

What can be done about this?
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  #2  
Old 05-10-18, 11:45 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Coaches,

I am posting this as a coach that maintains some integrity by not putting garbage entries in for meets trying to get an advantage in lane assignments.

How bad is this issue for you? In our conference and district there are the usual suspects who put in ridiculous times for their kids. THey enter hand times or even career PR's that occurred 2 years ago.

What can be done about this?
Nothing with the coaches. The athletes will either run fast or run slower than the time. It is life. Kids will have good and bad days.

Don't laugh and chuckle about it either because you are laughing at kids.

I don't mind fast entries or slower entries.

I do the opposite for my kids so they get more rest between heats on purpose. If you calculate the data and estimate when the rest will be you can enter them faster or slower based upon the needed rest before or after. That is your call as coach.

I would not get worked up about it. It only affects the district entries. After that the kids are seeded based upon finish and time. The deserving will qualify.
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  #3  
Old 05-10-18, 11:49 AM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Coaches,

I am posting this as a coach that maintains some integrity by not putting garbage entries in for meets trying to get an advantage in lane assignments.

How bad is this issue for you? In our conference and district there are the usual suspects who put in ridiculous times for their kids. THey enter hand times or even career PR's that occurred 2 years ago.

What can be done about this?
I don't know that we'll ever be able to do it the way college does it where you either submit verifiable performances or suffer the consequences. A breakout performance at the weekday dual meet may not be easily verifiable.

Best thing you can do is call out other coaches for this and blackball them from attending meets that you host. Honestly though, I don't see it as a major issue unless heat winners automatically advance to finals. Kids still have to perform, regardless of their seed.
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Old 05-10-18, 12:18 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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sure it comes down to the kids but you cant say it doesnt affect kids in 800 rounds or 400's or 4x4 when you are bumped out of preferred lanes or you have hot heats that unbalance the meets semi finals.
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Old 05-10-18, 12:36 PM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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I remember at a previous school I coached at I had a couple decent 800 runners whom I had seeded at current season PRs, which somehow put them in the slow heat (ugh, as it was the county meet). The meet administrator called me over and said he made a judgment call to put the faster of the two in the fast heat regardless, which I (and the kid's parents!) appreciated. The other kid made the most of the slow heat. Ended up both placing. As a young coach, it's when I was first introduced to how ridiculous and inflated seeds can get.

Not sure if there's anything to be done, though. Dual meets are hard to check up on. Aggregators like Milesplit or Athletic.net aren't always reliable either. Blackballing coaches seems a bit much. At the district meet, anyway, I guess this kind of takes care of itself by way of qualifying out

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  #6  
Old 05-10-18, 12:58 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Why not start by requiring the meet and date that the time was recorded? That would help expose them.
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  #7  
Old 05-10-18, 01:04 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
Why not start by requiring the meet and date that the time was recorded? That would help expose them.
Too many variables involved here to make noise about this situation.

The good athletes always qualify out and move on. This NEVER effects the outcome of the district or regional.

If you can give me any instance where a coach inflated a time and it helped someone...I would love to hear about it.

Yes it did once upon a time when the time was not FAT and you qualified base upon time.

But now--seeding times do not matter at all except a lane.
And a lane does not help you on the high school first round level at the district level.
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Old 05-10-18, 01:16 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Too many variables involved here to make noise about this situation.

The good athletes always qualify out and move on. This NEVER effects the outcome of the district or regional.

If you can give me any instance where a coach inflated a time and it helped someone...I would love to hear about it.

Yes it did once upon a time when the time was not FAT and you qualified base upon time.

But now--seeding times do not matter at all except a lane.
And a lane does not help you on the high school first round level at the district level.
I disagree. Outside lanes in the 800-4x4 surely do
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Old 05-10-18, 01:44 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
I disagree. Outside lanes in the 800-4x4 surely do
800 prelims top 8 times advance to the final
4x4 top 8 times advance to the final

How does lane 1 help over lane 8?

Girls
When kids are running 2:30-2:35 in a girls district qualifier in the 800?

Teams running 4:20 to qualify to the district final in the 4x4?

Both of these races are a joke in the prelims at the district level.

Boys
800 usually 2:08 makes it most district finals.
4x400 usually 3:28-3:35 makes it to the district finals.

No way will a lane help/hurt at this pedestrian level.

It's like using the blocks for a boy that runs a :57 quarter mile or a girl that runs a 1:06.

Why sweat over it.
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  #10  
Old 05-10-18, 02:22 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
I disagree. Outside lanes in the 800-4x4 surely do
The 800 at Districts should be serpentine-seeded for heat assignment in prelims, but a random draw for lane.
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Old 05-10-18, 03:25 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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I think part of inflated seed times comes from using a best recorded time, but that time was hand timed and thus inaccurate. Not sure how that would make an impact for events like the 4 by 400, or 800. But it certainly is a reason for 200s, 100's, 110 Hurdles, and perhaps the 4 by 100.
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Old 05-10-18, 10:37 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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EuclidAndViren, making a difference isnít just a matter of the top four making it to finals. It can simply mean a team unfairly in an outside lane that may have ended up in the finals and scoring doesnít make it to finals.
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Old 05-11-18, 06:38 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
EuclidAndViren, making a difference isn’t just a matter of the top four making it to finals. It can simply mean a team unfairly in an outside lane that may have ended up in the finals and scoring doesn’t make it to finals.
If they make it to finals then they are fast enough to qualify. Lane does not impact your time as much as people believe. I had a team win the 4x200 at the state meet in lane 8. I had a team second in the 4x100 in lane 2. I had a kid win the 1600 in lane 2 at the state meet.
I despise the weak mentality that sprinters formulate before a race dependent upon the lane. I have worked years into dispelling this notion with my team. When coaches bring it up for indoor, outdoor, sprinting and distance running, I 100% believe it's a weak mentality. In reality their team is just slow and will not make it anyway. Get over yourself, run fast and take care of business.
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Old 05-11-18, 07:19 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Why are lanes even seeded? The answer is because, on the average, the middle lanes are an advantage. This is a statistically demonstrable difference. Lane 4 produces the fastest times on the average. That advantage is not universal. Really tall athletes with long strides are at more of a disadvantage in the inside lanes, for example. But it is clear.

Yes, as a coach you shouldn't support it when athletes are worried about being on the inside or outside. It is possible to run well from there, and we all want athletes to develop the confidence to handle different situations. But saying that all of the differences between lanes are because of a weak mentality, or using examples of races won from inside or outside lane, is not only being insulting, it is putting forth a weak argument.

Last night I had a freshman running the 400 in the prelims at our conference meet. She has not run a lot of 400s. There was an error in the seeding (not sure how an automatic system did that) and she ended up outside despite having the #2 seed time. She has not run enough 400s yet to have a good idea of how to run the back stretch well. As a result she slowed down too much, until the #1 seed caught up with her. Then she sped back up. The #3 caught her on the turn, but she pulled away down the straight. Yes she made the final and should score in it. And yes, I think it is likely that she would have run a faster time if that #3 seed had been outside of her to start where she should have been. For a more experienced athlete maybe it doesn't matter so much. But saying it is weakness is rather insulting.

To summarize, yes, on the average the middle lanes are advantageous. That is why the fastest two athletes from the semi-finals get lanes 4 and 5 for the finals. So yes, when a coach intentionally gives a coach a wildly fast seed time that is a case of trying to gain advantage by lying.
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Old 05-11-18, 07:42 AM
starcatcher8 starcatcher8 is offline
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We had a situation on Wednesday evening where one of our boys in the 400 meter dash ran a 51.54 and did not get into the finals. Two runners from other schools with slower times got into the finals. This happened because runners advanced to the finals by finishing in the top two in their heat (3 heats were run) plus the next two fastest times overall. At next year's coaches' meeting in March at the host school we hope to get this changed to: the winner of each of the three heats plus the next five fastest times advancing.

This problem arose when coaches submitted inflated times and one of the heats was stacked and it deprived our runner of a berth in the finals.
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Old 05-11-18, 07:52 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Why are lanes even seeded? The answer is because, on the average, the middle lanes are an advantage. This is a statistically demonstrable difference. Lane 4 produces the fastest times on the average. That advantage is not universal. Really tall athletes with long strides are at more of a disadvantage in the inside lanes, for example. But it is clear.

Yes, as a coach you shouldn't support it when athletes are worried about being on the inside or outside. It is possible to run well from there, and we all want athletes to develop the confidence to handle different situations. But saying that all of the differences between lanes are because of a weak mentality, or using examples of races won from inside or outside lane, is not only being insulting, it is putting forth a weak argument.

Last night I had a freshman running the 400 in the prelims at our conference meet. She has not run a lot of 400s. There was an error in the seeding (not sure how an automatic system did that) and she ended up outside despite having the #2 seed time. She has not run enough 400s yet to have a good idea of how to run the back stretch well. As a result she slowed down too much, until the #1 seed caught up with her. Then she sped back up. The #3 caught her on the turn, but she pulled away down the straight. Yes she made the final and should score in it. And yes, I think it is likely that she would have run a faster time if that #3 seed had been outside of her to start where she should have been. For a more experienced athlete maybe it doesn't matter so much. But saying it is weakness is rather insulting.

To summarize, yes, on the average the middle lanes are advantageous. That is why the fastest two athletes from the semi-finals get lanes 4 and 5 for the finals. So yes, when a coach intentionally gives a coach a wildly fast seed time that is a case of trying to gain advantage by lying.
Rubbish.

Lanes are seeded because when we had finish line judges and timers, it was easier to pick places if the leaders were in the middle of the track. You are using a logic loop where we purposely put the fastest runners in lane 4 and 5 and then saying those are the fastest lanes because the data says so.

With the prevalence of FAT, making it easier for the finish line is no longer necessary. I would not be against randomizing lanes a little more, though perhaps not complete randomization. I already do this for the meets I run indoors and I'm debating about doing it for early season outdoor meets when we know the entered marks are garbage.
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Old 05-11-18, 08:14 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Rubbish.

Lanes are seeded because when we had finish line judges and timers, it was easier to pick places if the leaders were in the middle of the track. You are using a logic loop where we purposely put the fastest runners in lane 4 and 5 and then saying those are the fastest lanes because the data says so.

With the prevalence of FAT, making it easier for the finish line is no longer necessary. I would not be against randomizing lanes a little more, though perhaps not complete randomization. I already do this for the meets I run indoors and I'm debating about doing it for early season outdoor meets when we know the entered marks are garbage.
The two of us have actually had this discussion before. Actually not at all rubbish. It is actually a provable and proven fact. This has nothing to do with the people in lanes 4 and 5 running faster than the people in the outside and inside lanes in an absolute sense. It is about athletes running faster when they are in those lanes relative to other lanes. It is remarkably easy to demonstrate in fact, because there is a natural experiment in place. Athletes run against each other a lot, and everyone runs the preliminary rounds under approximately the same conditions. So you can look at how individual athletes perform relative to what the "should perform" based on how they ran in the prelims and have run against the same individuals in other meets. In the 100 there really is not a meaningful difference between lanes. In the 200 and 400, however, there is a small but clear advantage for the middle lanes. It really should not be surprising. Almost everyone runs better running with others. If you are in the middle in a sprint you have people to chase and to push you at the start of the race.

Last edited by mathking; 05-11-18 at 10:46 AM..
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Old 05-11-18, 09:10 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Speaking of fast times. GMC 100m boys prelims on Wednesday. 11.03 doesn't make the finals of the conference meet. With a wind of 4.7 everyone runs fast.

For the guys that want state regulations and rules about entering times, how do you regulate wind aided times? Some of these guys have never broken 11.5 before this day. Do we ostracize the coaches that enter their kid in the 100 meters at district with a 11.04?

If you've coached long enough, you understand that this is part of track and field. Imagine if we had to seed kids in XC? Times are skewed with variables up the wazzoo. It is part of the sport. Similar with football, basketball, soccer or baseball stats. Johnny averaged 27 ppg in basketball this year, why isn't he going D1? Because he played in the sisters of the poor league and those kids couldn't tie their shoe laces. Sarah scored 38 goals this year in soccer and wasn't all state. Well she played against schools that have never seen a soccer ball in northwest Ohio where they don't have soccer.

1 Asa Hodrick 12 Sycamore 10.75 4.7
2 Julian Wagner Lakota West 10.89 4.3
3De'yon Brown 10 Middletown 1
4Jon Malek Sycamore 4.4
5 Jaymon Penn 11 Mason 10.94 4.3 1
6Enoch Brookins 12 Princeton 4.7 1
7 Jason Watkins Lakota West
8Josh Wright Mason 11.03
9 Jj Davis Colerain 11.03 4.4
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Old 05-11-18, 10:45 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Speaking of fast times. GMC 100m boys prelims on Wednesday. 11.03 doesn't make the finals of the conference meet. With a wind of 4.7 everyone runs fast.

For the guys that want state regulations and rules about entering times, how do you regulate wind aided times? Some of these guys have never broken 11.5 before this day. Do we ostracize the coaches that enter their kid in the 100 meters at district with a 11.04?

If you've coached long enough, you understand that this is part of track and field. Imagine if we had to seed kids in XC? Times are skewed with variables up the wazzoo. It is part of the sport. Similar with football, basketball, soccer or baseball stats. Johnny averaged 27 ppg in basketball this year, why isn't he going D1? Because he played in the sisters of the poor league and those kids couldn't tie their shoe laces. Sarah scored 38 goals this year in soccer and wasn't all state. Well she played against schools that have never seen a soccer ball in northwest Ohio where they don't have soccer.

1 Asa Hodrick 12 Sycamore 10.75 4.7
2 Julian Wagner Lakota West 10.89 4.3
3De'yon Brown 10 Middletown 1
4Jon Malek Sycamore 4.4
5 Jaymon Penn 11 Mason 10.94 4.3 1
6Enoch Brookins 12 Princeton 4.7 1
7 Jason Watkins Lakota West
8Josh Wright Mason 11.03
9 Jj Davis Colerain 11.03 4.4
This is a good example why state qualifying based purely on times rather than head to to head competition is a bad idea. This year weather conditions have not been conducive (in general) to fast times. But right now the weather is warming up and all of a sudden times are dropping. Think about how upset you would be if you didn't make it to the state meet because your last meet was into a 4.7 head wind while kids who ran with the same wind at their backs got to go. And before anyone says "Just make it so it has to be a wind legal time" ask yourself how you'd feel if you crushed a bunch of athletes head to head during the season and never got to run a FAT, wind-legal race so you didn't get to do to the state meet.
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Old 05-11-18, 11:27 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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just to throw this out there.....400 world record is in lane 8.
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Old 05-11-18, 12:11 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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First, for League and/or District meets, coaches who knowingly put bogus times, either slow or fast, are trying to beat the system and get their kid an advantage. I will question their integrity even if they do it because"every one else does it". Integrity is doing it right despite everyone else.

Secondly, test show that the outside lane is the "fastest" due to the turn in the 200 and 400 dashes. a calibrated machine was used to prove that , on a 8-line track, with the exact same effort lane 8 is the fastest, then lane 7, lane 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, . Now, the human factor (psychological - biomechanical) does make a difference. some kids like to see the compition and some prefer to run scared, some like a sharp turn, some don't. BTW - the Machine test showed the on the straight away all lanes are then same. I have the article about the report buried in my file at home somewhere.
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Old 05-11-18, 12:19 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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From a biomechanics standpoint, lane 8 should be the fastest lane for most athletes for a 200 or 400. It is the least curved. And the way that race played out, lane 8 was probably advantageous, since he just ran away from them. But proving that it is possible to set a record or to win out of lane 8 or lane 1 is not the same thing as showing that there is no advantage in the middle lanes.

I remember the first time I looked at the evidence around this, back in 2010. One of the interesting things I found was that the effect size of the differences was really small for lanes 3-5, but lane 6 was almost .015 slower than the average of the other three for 200 meters. Which would seem to indicate that being able to see the other "fastest" runners is an advantage.
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Old 05-12-18, 09:04 PM
coachwhitman coachwhitman is offline
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Can't we just use some freakin common sense

I think we all should know the difference between an educated guess at the beginning of the season where most are doing so and purposely trying to gain an unearned advantage during the championship portion of the season. Saying that seed inflation is just a part of the sport is just pure bull. Cheating kids out of the hot heat happens all too often and "coaches" who do it purposely and regularly shouldn't have any place in the sport. Honor and integrity do count and saying that it all just works out is disingenuous at best. What's even worse than that practice are the meet directors/managers who pass the buck and won't do anything about it. Quite obviously, there are variables that can legitimately be taken into account in the conversation, but why would should we as coaches be expected to abide shady seeding practices?? Get the heck out of here with that crap. It's just not that hard to do it right. But, what do I know?
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Old 05-12-18, 11:07 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachwhitman View Post
I think we all should know the difference between an educated guess at the beginning of the season where most are doing so and purposely trying to gain an unearned advantage during the championship portion of the season. Saying that seed inflation is just a part of the sport is just pure bull. Cheating kids out of the hot heat happens all too often and "coaches" who do it purposely and regularly shouldn't have any place in the sport. Honor and integrity do count and saying that it all just works out is disingenuous at best. What's even worse than that practice are the meet directors/managers who pass the buck and won't do anything about it. Quite obviously, there are variables that can legitimately be taken into account in the conversation, but why would should we as coaches be expected to abide shady seeding practices?? Get the heck out of here with that crap. It's just not that hard to do it right. But, what do I know?


Well said coach.
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Old 05-13-18, 08:31 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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This topic was brought up at our conference meet and even our AD's are discussing it because a few schools are so bad at it that everyone is complaining.
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Old 05-13-18, 09:28 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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We have gone to times only advancing instead of place plus next "x" by time. So, who cares? We don't seem to think that running with faster competition makes kids run faster, so what does it matter which heat you start in? After round one, at the District, none of it matters anyway. The argument that lane matters in the 800 is a joke. Lane does not matter in the 800 on up unless you make it matter by not knowing how to race. Below the 800, I think it does matter, but since we just have kids running against the clock and not competition, I don't worry about it much. I am of the belief that first place should always be rewarded, but I'm in the minority, I guess.

We have a boy that ran 9:19 in the 3200. Legit time. Got Mono the next week and now is iffy. Say he can run 9:45 now. Where do you put him and does it matter?

I have a pole vaulter that has a season best 9" higher than his next best vault and his average height is a foot lower than his best. What do I put in and does it matter?

It only matters 100 up to the 400 and the sprint relays. Field events only matter for PV and HJ and only because they determine opening height by the entries. I usually put what my kid can do on an average day and not their all time best or even season best.
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Old 05-13-18, 09:38 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I have a pole vaulter that has a season best 9" higher than his next best vault and his average height is a foot lower than his best. What do I put in and does it matter?
His most consistent height or distance is the entry mark requested for the district meet for field events. Yes it does matter for the reason you specified. The games committee needs to know where to set the bar.

For most throwers and long jumpers, it probably does not matter. But, the event judges and head field judge would like to know if they should be expecting record measurements.
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Old 05-14-18, 03:21 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Our coach never puts in better times, always worse. I'm not sure the strategy there, but it is dishonest, so to me, not acceptable.
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Old 05-14-18, 04:26 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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I've seen relay teams win events out of the slow heat because the entry mark was so far off. That doesn't resonate well with me either.

Also, entering your vaulter at 6'0 and then have her pass to 6'6 is not acceptable either. I don't want to hear complaints about why the vault is taking so long if we can't set an accurate starting height.
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Old 05-14-18, 05:06 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
This topic was brought up at our conference meet and even our AD's are discussing it because a few schools are so bad at it that everyone is complaining.
Come on, name the schools. Lets make the week before Districts even more interesting!



Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
just to throw this out there.....400 world record is in lane 8.
Not many HS kids can run 100 meters in 11 seconds, let alone 400 meters. lol
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