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  #31  
Old 05-03-18, 09:16 AM
VVTommyBoy VVTommyBoy is offline
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Maybe things would have been different if the issue would have been raised prior to this century...maybe not. Perhaps the best we could hope for was more of an emphasis on equipment, rules and teaching to account for this.

Like the steroid users in baseball, most would do it all over again. I just don't see that many football players wouldn't want to still play if they could do it over ( with the current knowledge ). One of the good things is that medical people can make the decision instead of players and coaches but, even medical people will eventually allow them back into the games.
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  #32  
Old 05-03-18, 09:27 AM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fussandfeathers View Post
I think CTE is a big problem that football needs to deal with. But my only concern here is the samples for these studies. The brains that are being examined are most certainly going to have evidence of CTE because they already think they do...hence their participation in many of these studies. Think about the thousands and thousands of men who played football and stopped after high school or college that are not being examined. The samples used are so specific to the condition of CTE that we don't really know, in my opinion, the actual impact.
You can't test and examine for CTE (conclusively) until a person is dead.

While confirmation bias does exist, what you're speculating here isn't an example of confirmation bias in practice. There are umpteen peer-reviewed journals and publications on CTE and the studies concerning such. You aren't writing an article, having it reviewed and adjudicated, and getting it published if there is confirmation bias.
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  #33  
Old 05-03-18, 09:40 AM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bop View Post
I have never been a fan of youth tackle football. In most communities there are no checks and balances in place to ensure it is about the kids. Often these teams are coached by men who do not have the qualities of a good coach. If they did, they would be coaching for the local school district. It subjects kids to behavior that borders on abuse by some of these men, burns kids out early and apparently also is affecting their brains.
Ban youth tackle football, start them in 7th grade.
I agree 100% with this. Because OHSAA doesn't have jurisdiction over activities below seventh grade, there is no regulatory body beyond the district/organization itself to make sure the coaches are actually qualified and properly trained to both coach football and in possession of the wherewithal to recognize that a kid took a concussion. Additionally, power dynamics are an issue with youth football. A 10-11 year old kid that takes a hit to the head, is starting to hurt badly in the head and may be experiencing concussion(-like) symptoms has no incentive to tell the coach of such, because they're likely to be subjected to "don't be a p***y", "toughen up" or "get back onto the field." This is especially true if you're on a team that has 13-14 kids. Additionally, a kid that age has likely has no idea what a concussion actually is and therefore may underestimate the injury, thinking that they're "fine" and wouldn't want to let their teammates, coaches and parents down by sitting out the rest of the game. Seriously, when is the last time you saw a trainer or someone qualified to diagnose concussions on the sideline? /rhetorical. Maybe you might see one every once in a blue moon if you're in a large school's middle school program, but for the vast majority of youth football teams the only adults you'll see on the sideline are just a few dads coaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
I certainly don't want to put words into your mouth, but I'd agree that the research method leaves a lot to be desired. They took a SMALL sample of 211 players and chose one of 1,000 factors (did the person play youth football) into account and tried to extrapolate that information across an entire population.
N > 30 does not qualify as a "small" sample.
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  #34  
Old 05-03-18, 11:43 AM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Anchor View Post
Anyway that we can weed out the mentally weak at an early age, I am all on board. There is no place for those people in football.
The problem, though, is that football is apparently making them mentally weak later in life.
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  #35  
Old 05-03-18, 02:50 PM
Bigscarletandgrey Bigscarletandgrey is offline
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I can't believe anyone with any common sense is arguing with the study. Throw that study out and do you honestly think that it is good for young kids to be hit int he head over and over?
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  #36  
Old 05-03-18, 04:14 PM
Rangerfan Rangerfan is offline
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Report says: "Starting to play tackle football before age 12 could lead..."

So, naturally, when the local television station promoted the story, they included only video of the local high school football teams practicing/playing.

That said, I saw no reason for tackle football before junior high before this study.
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  #37  
Old 05-04-18, 07:49 AM
fantastic50 fantastic50 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dock View Post
I agree 100% with this. Because OHSAA doesn't have jurisdiction over activities below seventh grade, there is no regulatory body beyond the district/organization itself to make sure the coaches are actually qualified and properly trained to both coach football and in possession of the wherewithal to recognize that a kid took a concussion.

Seriously, when is the last time you saw a trainer or someone qualified to diagnose concussions on the sideline? /rhetorical.
This. At the high school level, it is often prohibited to have full-gear practice without a certified athletic trainer present. Collision sports, such as football and (checking) ice hockey, need to have qualified medical personnel on site to assess and treat these issues, and those staff need to have the authority to pull injured athletes from a contest (or practice).
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  #38  
Old 05-04-18, 08:40 AM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fantastic50 View Post
This. At the high school level, it is often prohibited to have full-gear practice without a certified athletic trainer present.
Prohibited by who? There is no such OHSAA rule.
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  #39  
Old 05-04-18, 10:58 AM
fantastic50 fantastic50 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Prohibited by who? There is no such OHSAA rule.
Correct. This would occur mostly at the district level, and perhaps also in some northeastern states, where athletic trainers are numerous. I don't know whether any Ohio districts currently require this, but I expect such regulations to spread, particularly because of fear of lawsuits.
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  #40  
Old 05-04-18, 11:52 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fantastic50 View Post
Correct. This would occur mostly at the district level, and perhaps also in some northeastern states, where athletic trainers are numerous. I don't know whether any Ohio districts currently require this, but I expect such regulations to spread, particularly because of fear of lawsuits.
Cost prohibitive
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  #41  
Old 05-04-18, 01:54 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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Add me to the group against tackle football at an early age. Be it 12 or 14, I think the developmental disparity between kids, despite the same age, make tackle football a major issue.

It also introduces hard contact among kids who haven't yet learned the concept of proper tackling. And that's before even getting into the 'quality' of the coaches at the youngest levels. Are their good or great coaches at that level? Yes. But, there's far too many that treat 9-year olds playing for fun as their Super Bowl.

Start early at flag football. It encourages learning routes, speed, etc. Two-hand touch is actually closer to learning 'technique' because it requires using both hands and squaring up the ball carrier to make the 'tackle' moreso than flag where you're just reaching with one hand (though it does encourage learning to aim for the waist, which is the best area to wrap-up a runner and truly tackle them.

Leaning in with the shoulder leads to lowering the head, which leads to shoddy technique, unsafe technique, and uses the head as a weapon.

And if that means making changes to the sport... well, that's been done before several times over. It can be done again. And football has still survived.
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  #42  
Old 05-05-18, 08:51 PM
my2sense my2sense is offline
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Judging from some of these posts, I am guessing that some people started playing tackle football about second grade.
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  #43  
Old 05-05-18, 09:14 PM
vamp2syd vamp2syd is offline
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How many children die from car accidents every year?

Maybe we should just stop driving.....
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  #44  
Old 05-05-18, 10:30 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post


Start early at flag football. It encourages learning routes, speed, etc. Two-hand touch is actually closer to learning 'technique' because it requires using both hands and squaring up the ball carrier to make the 'tackle' moreso than flag where you're just reaching with one hand (though it does encourage learning to aim for the waist, which is the best area to wrap-up a runner and truly tackle them.

Leaning in with the shoulder leads to lowering the head, which leads to shoddy technique, unsafe technique, and uses the head as a weapon.

And if that means making changes to the sport... well, that's been done before several times over. It can be done again. And football has still survived.
Say what? Reaching for a flag is in no way near proper technique for tackling, nor is two hand touch. the first thing that should hit a kid ideally is a shoulder pad, so I'm not clear as to what you mean when you seem to suggest that leaning in with a shoulder is bad.
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  #45  
Old 05-05-18, 10:33 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my2sense View Post
Judging from some of these posts, I am guessing that some people started playing tackle football about second grade.
Judging from the posts, I would say most didn't bother to read the article that fussnfeathers posted.... Over 20 experts who essentially dispute the recent findings in this area.
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  #46  
Old 05-06-18, 08:42 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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I started in the 3rd grade. I have coached at every level. I can tell you the game will be just fine and will more than likely grow having kids play flag football through 6th/7th grade.

Another reason why pee-wee is counter productive. Interesting story. City I live in started flag football 15 years ago. My youngest was the first class to go through this. The played flag 3rd and 4th grade and it was great. Roughly 10 teams per class. When they got to 5th grade it was the largest group to ever sign up for tackle football. Why? Because you had 10 QBs, 20 RBs, 30 WRs. Kids had a great experience playing and wanted more. Of course that all was ruined when some really tough dads thought it would be great to start a 3rd grade tackle football team. Once that happens kids feel the need to play tackle or quit. Fifteen years ago we had 4 5th grade and 4 6th grade pee-wee teams each with roughly 30 kids. Today, since 3rd and 4th grade football bottlenecked and pigeon holed kids at a young age our community has ONE team. Anyone with a brain can tell you that you have no idea who your running back or QB will be in the 3rd grade but that is what they are doing. So instead of 10 QBs and 30 WRs now you have ONE QB and ONE RB. That one RB is usually the kid who grew quick and will be roughly the same size in HS as he was as a 6th grader. Or the left tackle they pigeon holed because he was huge but was done growing as a 6' 170lbs. 6th grader. In pigeon holing kids at such a young age you lose so many kids that could otherwise help you out at the HS level.

I want as many kids out as I can get and flag helps that.
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  #47  
Old 05-06-18, 08:21 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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In hockey, it's fun watching the little buggers waddle skating with all that equip. In football? Yeah, flag makes MUCH more sense. Gets more kids over the intimidation factor also.

But they still put the fat kid on the line, regardless he/she has the best arm.
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  #48  
Old 05-07-18, 09:19 AM
Bigscarletandgrey Bigscarletandgrey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
How many children die from car accidents every year?

Maybe we should just stop driving.....
Plain stupid....
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  #49  
Old 05-07-18, 08:31 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Cost prohibitive
Lots of high schools already do.
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  #50  
Old 05-07-18, 08:35 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fantastic50 View Post
... perhaps also in some northeastern states, where athletic trainers are numerous. I don't know whether any Ohio districts currently require this,
You said it is "often prohibited." Now it's "perhaps" and "I don't know."

And there are lots of athletic trainers in Ohio too.
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  #51  
Old 05-08-18, 09:19 AM
HTHS8670 HTHS8670 is offline
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Long before any studies or any other factors came into play, I have always believed that youth football is a waste of time and effort. Having coached a great number of years of high school football, I have found that the bad habits and techniques that youth football participants bring to the high school are more detrimental than anything they could learn by playing youth football. My personal preference is to get a 9th grader who has never played contact football, a veritable blank slate, and teach him from scratch. I have never seen anything in youth football or for that matter in junior high football that even slightly looks like the game we are trying to teach in high school. Let kids burn out on all the other sports and come to 9th grade hungry to play football.
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  #52  
Old 05-08-18, 09:52 PM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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Originally Posted by vamp2syd View Post
How many children die from car accidents every year?

Maybe we should just stop driving.....
That is the most ridiculous statement Iíve ever read on yappi.
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  #53  
Old 05-08-18, 09:55 PM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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When do the MAC schools start playing tackle?
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  #54  
Old 05-08-18, 10:38 PM
JohnnyComeLately JohnnyComeLately is offline
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It is my understanding that Coldwater doesnít start until 8th grade.
Not 100% sure. But I believe it starts around then


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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  #55  
Old 05-09-18, 03:07 PM
fantastic50 fantastic50 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
You said it is "often prohibited." Now it's "perhaps" and "I don't know."

And there are lots of athletic trainers in Ohio too.
I am hedging a bit because it has been 15+ years since I was a practicing ATC, and that was not in Ohio. The district where I worked, Wake County NC (Raleigh & suburbs) requires athletic trainers to be present at any practice where football gear is worn, in-season or out-of-season (link). There has been a strong push in that state for decades to get an athletic trainer in every school, but they're still not quite there. Most mid-sized & large schools there do have one, typically someone who also teaches either health/PE or biology.
The teacher/athletic trainer model, while it can burn out folks quickly, is fairly cost-effective, as schools only have to pay an extra coaching stipend, rather than an extra full salary. Some schools contract with a PT clinic instead, and have an athletic trainer on campus through the afternoon & evening that way.

The northeast produces more athletic trainers than any other part of the US, so it's no surprise that it also has the highest percentage of schools who have one.

Having an athletic trainer does have a cost, but not having one can be very costly, if a life-threatening emergency happens and it isn't properly handled. My first year on the job, the next school down the road, which did not have an athletic trainer, tragically lost their captain & student body president, when he collapsed at practice and died of a heat stroke. The lawsuits went on for six years, and ended up in the state supreme court. After that, the school found the money to hire a ATC.
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  #56  
Old 05-09-18, 08:13 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Lots of high schools already do.
If they require them to cover varsity full gear practices, they will have to cover the Frosh, JV, 7th, & 8th grade full gear practices as well.

Not gonna happen.
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  #57  
Old 05-09-18, 09:33 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringer2 View Post
When do the MAC schools start playing tackle?
Delphos has four midget football teams with kids from both DSJ and Delphos Jefferson combined . I think Parkway has midget football, too. The rest start in 7th grade.
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  #58  
Old 05-10-18, 07:59 AM
fantastic50 fantastic50 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
If they require them to cover varsity full gear practices, they will have to cover the Frosh, JV, 7th, & 8th grade full gear practices as well.

Not gonna happen.
In the large district that I mentioned, they do have to cover JV as well, but there are no freshmen teams in NC. With few programs having more than 150 boys (9th-12th), varsity and JV often practice simultaneously, on the same field or adjacent fields. You raise a good point about middle schools, though; they rarely have athletic trainers.
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  #59  
Old 05-11-18, 12:58 PM
Starkbuck Starkbuck is offline
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I think that we will see the end of youth tackle football much sooner than many want to accept. There is no reason that the kids cannot be taught how to play a game like football without full contact. Reducing contact in youth sports is not detrimental to the development of tough kids and is actually one way to increase the participation levels. Additionally you have so many unqualified coaches at the youth level, and even beyond, that are not teaching proper techniques etc. Since that problem will not be going away anytime soon given the difficulty in funding and locating quality coaches, your next best solution is reduce the amount of trauma inflicted on these kids.

As a parent, former player and coach, I am not sure I want my son playing this sport today and he will not play tackle football until middle school. For those who are saying "We did it and turned out just fine", please realize that game today is not even close to what you had then. Players are stronger, faster and the game is far more violent than ten or twenty years ago. There have been great strides made in protective equipment, but those protections are somewhat negated by the bigger, faster and stronger kids playing the sport.
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  #60  
Old 05-14-18, 02:16 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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^^^
I agree with everything you say except this:

"...the game is far more violent than ten or twenty years ago."

I don't agree with that. There was FAR MORE "full go" in practice than there is now. Some teams never go "full go" during a practice week today.

But I agree with everything else you posted and your point is well-taken.
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