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  #1  
Old 04-16-18, 06:35 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Milesplit Obsolete now?

We have been to 5 meets this year with our varsity and JV athletes.

Only 1 of our meets have been downloaded on Milesplit.

The other 4-all timed by Finishtiming.com are not on Milesplit.

I really don't see a purpose for Milesplit.

If they fail to poach times from timing companies what is the purpose?
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  #2  
Old 04-16-18, 06:54 AM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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If you want rankings from all of our meets go to
Www.trackstatsohio.com
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  #3  
Old 04-16-18, 12:29 PM
jktrack jktrack is offline
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Kinda agree. We are in the same boat. Some of our individual times are listed but not relays. Divisions/districts and regionals haven't been updated either.
And to think we're paying for this.
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  #4  
Old 04-16-18, 01:18 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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If the timing companies,finish timing,lightning, timer hub, etc are not exporting their data in a timely manner then Milesplit will be no more useful then Baumspage...
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  #5  
Old 04-16-18, 01:19 PM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
If you want rankings from all of our meets go to
Www.trackstatsohio.com
This is a nice list. Unfortunately, a lot of meets in Cincinnati are done by a different timing company, so now I have to check three different rankings to see what the team I root for has done this year.
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  #6  
Old 04-16-18, 01:21 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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I am going to start using D3Stats again...Stew where are you when I need you...
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  #7  
Old 04-16-18, 02:05 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctrackfan View Post
If the timing companies,finish timing,lightning, timer hub, etc are not exporting their data in a timely manner then Milesplit will be no more useful then Baumspage...
If Milesplit wants to charge people for the data aggregation service that they provide, then they can aggregate the data themselves. I feel no obligation to "export" the results of meets I'm in charge of other than to post them on the web for the athletes, coaches, and parents to view.
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  #8  
Old 04-16-18, 03:32 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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The collection of meets results on ohiomilesplit really are lacking, aren't they? In that case, I am just as well better off using baumspage. Wouldn't it be great if baumspage had a search feature where you could search for athletes, or schools, and it would bring up all the meet results for that search.
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  #9  
Old 04-16-18, 06:33 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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Prior to Milesplit, but during Baumspage explosion, I was the meet director for my invitational and league meets, and I made sure I sent results to all schools entered, the Columbus paper, local paper, and Baumspage. I would have sent the file to Milesplit as well, as it only takes an additional email address. I pay milesplit for their site same as most of you, but how hard is it as a host coach to make sure this information is sent to them? I would think schools involved in the meet would want this information to be posted and would ask for this to be done.

I guess it is easier to just karp about it.

Last edited by Run4Life; 04-16-18 at 08:49 PM..
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  #10  
Old 04-16-18, 06:55 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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I, understand what your saying...and by no means do the timing companies have any obligation to Milesplit....but without the companies Milesplit who charges money isn’t worth subscribing to....that’s why I long for the free sites like D3stats.....
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  #11  
Old 04-16-18, 07:46 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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I used to check milesplit regularly during both XC and track season. I can't remember the last time I looked at it during XC season. I also find myself looking at it less and less with each passing track season.

I've begun to realize I'm better off worrying about what my own school is doing rather than what others are doing. Now, I just need to remember to cancel my annual membership before it renews for another year. I've forgotten to do that for a few years now.

Heck, I did a 1-month subscription to Flotrack Pro in order to watch a few collegiate indoor meets during a particular 4-week window, and I forgot to cancel it before the next monthly cycle began. There are maybe 3 4-week windows during the year where Flotrack has anything I want to see, so the yearly subscription isn't worth it to me.
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  #12  
Old 04-16-18, 08:52 PM
Percidae Percidae is offline
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First, I will disclose that I am a milesplit subscriber. I am not a coach. I am a fan and have kids in distance programs. Without a site that acts as a one-stop-shop for results and value added data aggregation/search, the sport suffers, period. I have sensed from reading this board that there has been a general rise in performance as of late. I believe Milesplit has had a part in that. Kids, parents, fans use it to enrich their enjoyment of the sport. I am not saying that timing companies should feel compelled to adhere to a particular data format, but if I were a race coordinator with the experience I have had, milesplit conformance/cooperation would be a consideration I would use in choosing a timing company.

So, how will this resolve? I don't see timing companies being the clearing house for all results data since they would have to get the cooperation of their direct competitors. If Milesplit could muster the resources, they could improve their data collection capabilities to accurately parse data from all formats.

Being in the telecom industry, I see some similarities with the Ma Bell breakups. The new companies played at their own levels, still had to get along with one another, and it was a win-win for both customers and the resulting companies.
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  #13  
Old 04-16-18, 09:43 PM
madman madman is offline
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There are so many different timing companies out there that there is no practical way to find results for every meet. I do appreciate Milesplit trying to be a site that aggregates results. It is a service that is still worth paying for. It can save me a significant amount of time in searching the internet for each individual meet result.

I also understand that the timing companies want additional traffic at their site as it affects the income they can make from advertising.

Maybe someone with the right vision and charisma can get everyone to work together where summaries/rankings of times, etc. can be found at milesplit and where readers would be linked to the timing sites for each complete meet result. That might increase traffic at each of the timing sites and provide a more useful service for everyone.
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  #14  
Old 04-17-18, 08:33 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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One possible solution would be for we coaches to work on creating our own site to do the data aggregation. It really is not that hard. But it takes time to go in an correct mistakes (incorrectly entered results, multiple spellings of one kids' name, etc.). If enough of us with the technical skills got together we might be able to put something together. For XC I collect results for every team we run against during the year, and select others. I am starting to do the same thing for TF, at least for the Central District D1, so that I can do a better job of seeding the District meet. Actually what would be great would be if everyone started using one site (like athletic.net) for meet entries and disseminating results. But every timing company needs to make the right decision for themselves.
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  #15  
Old 04-17-18, 12:54 PM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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This is an interesting topic and surprising to me. I have been highly interested in Milesplit for 7 years as I have had two kids (one year overlapping) go through high school and both run track and cross country (youngest is a senior now). There has never been a missed time for either of my kids in 7 years, including CC, indoor and outdoor track for any meet that had automatic timing.

Has something changed?
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  #16  
Old 04-17-18, 01:27 PM
madman madman is offline
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Finishtiming makes things as difficult as possible for milesplit to obtain results so that people are forced to the Finishtiming website. It's a business for them. I can't totallly disagree with their argument - why should milesplit benefit from their efforts. However, my feeling is that companies like finishtiming profit directly from contracts to do the timing. In my opinion, meet directors should agree to use a timing company only if they agree to provide results in a useable format to milesplit. It will never happen.

To some degree it's like flotrack. Once it's about dollars and not providing convenient access, every fan loses. We're headed backwards with regard to maintaining/generating a fan base. We had better access to more meets before flotrack went to a subscription service.
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  #17  
Old 04-17-18, 01:28 PM
madman madman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveCrossCountry View Post
This is an interesting topic and surprising to me. I have been highly interested in Milesplit for 7 years as I have had two kids (one year overlapping) go through high school and both run track and cross country (youngest is a senior now). There has never been a missed time for either of my kids in 7 years, including CC, indoor and outdoor track for any meet that had automatic timing.

Has something changed?

I would guess that you're not in the South/Central part of Ohio where Finishtiming dominates.
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  #18  
Old 04-17-18, 01:44 PM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madman View Post
I would guess that you're not in the South/Central part of Ohio where Finishtiming dominates.
Central Ohio. Finishtiming does a lot of the meets both of my kids have run in...results from them have always been posted to Milesplit and in a timely manner.
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  #19  
Old 04-17-18, 02:54 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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Coaches, Athletes, Parents, and Fans

This is to explain why our results are not formatted to Milesplits site. First of all Finishtiming is not associated with Milesplit. It is not our responsibility to provide results to them for their use. They are a pay site and have people pay them to see their rankings and they use (steal) results from timers. They figure putting our logo on the results is enough compensation for our work and then if we do not they tell all the coaches and parents to call and email us to ask why (thinking this will make us give them what they want).

We used to provide them with our results as a courtesy until we started getting calls and coaches coming to us (at the meet) saying our results were not right. They were already posted to milesplit before we were even done with the meet.

We have sponsors also that need to have traffic driven to them, so if everyone was going straight to milesplit then we were missing those people. We worked a deal (twice) with milesplit that they were to hold results for 48 hours and we would provide them with all results. They were told as soon as a result was posted before the 48 hour period it was over. It took approximately 1 week for them to break this agreement. We spent a lot of money to make our live results system work the way it does and it is a very easy system to use with mobile device or computer and is very fast. All meets that use our online entry system and use hytek to score their meet can see a complete rankings list at www.trackstatsohio.com . Our rankings site is free and coaches can add their athletes times even if they were not timed by us, by simply logging in and entering a leader entry.

We are a business and we have tried to add more and more experiences to the meets to make them more exciting for the fans and athletes alike. We have more items available to you than most do and have always added these things without raising prices for 15 years. We have started to get sponsors to help with our rising costs and if we give our results to another company this defeats our sponsorship.

Sincerely

Mike Chatfield

Finishtiming (Owner)
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  #20  
Old 04-17-18, 07:25 PM
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PantherVOR PantherVOR is offline
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I find this conversation amusing. Why should timing companies provide data to Milesplit so that Milesplit can turn around and sell it to others? That's like saying car part manufacturers should give GM all the parts it needs to build cars. If Milesplit wants the data they should negotiate a price for it with the services that generate the data. That might drive Milesplit's price a little higher but if you want reliable information in a timely manner it should be worth it to you.
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  #21  
Old 04-17-18, 07:59 PM
Altor Altor is offline
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Mike makes an interesting indictment by using the word "steal". Not sure that it's true theft, but is that data protected by copyright or some other intellectual property laws? Who owns this IP? Is it the timing company who made the original measurements or is it like medical and educational records that belong to the people who are being measured?

OK, I don't really think these fall under HIPAA or FERPA laws, but I do have a legitimate question about whether it's copyrightable.
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  #22  
Old 04-17-18, 08:05 PM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
Mike makes an interesting indictment by using the word "steal". Not sure that it's true theft, but is that data protected by copyright or some other intellectual property laws? Who owns this IP? Is it the timing company who made the original measurements or is it like medical and educational records that belong to the people who are being measured?

OK, I don't really think these fall under HIPAA or FERPA laws, but I do have a legitimate question about whether it's copyrightable.
Could a case be made that meet management owns the results since they hired the timing company to time their event and provide results?
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  #23  
Old 04-17-18, 09:06 PM
Percidae Percidae is offline
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Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
Could a case be made that meet management owns the results since they hired the timing company to time their event and provide results?
That is an excellent point. Before timing companies, it was the coaches that disseminated the results to local papers, correct? If meet organizers insisted the contracted timing company provide an electronic copy in a required format as a work product, then the organizer would then be responsible for distribution. As far as ownership, that may be a stretch. Since they are public events, usually public facilities, anyone could manually collect results and if they did that, I would think they would own those records.
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  #24  
Old 04-17-18, 11:02 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newton's Third View Post
Could a case be made that meet management owns the results since they hired the timing company to time their event and provide results?
Possibly but since we do not charge for electronic results the only thing meet management is paying for is a paper copy. The electronic version is in our proprietary live results system. If we were to use the standard hytek results or post them as a pdf then milesplit can easily get the results as they have written programs to do just this for them.
If milesplit was a free site, as it used to be, then taking results from timing companies websites would not be as big a deal and most might event send them what they need but if they are making money from their site and not paying the people "GIVING" them the info then how is that fair.
We have given a paper copy to a local newspaper if they are actually on site and ask for it also.
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Old 04-18-18, 05:51 AM
madman madman is offline
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Wow. So you're saying that if I hire Finishtiming to time my meet that you will only allow me to access the results through your site or a paper copy at the meet? In essence, the school doesn't own the rights to our meet results?

If Finishtiming and it's website were to cease to exist, then there were be no historical record of the meet unless someone held on to a paper copy they received at the meet?

Seriously?
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  #26  
Old 04-18-18, 07:34 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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How is that any different than the only historical record of a meet being in the team's old scorebook?
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  #27  
Old 04-18-18, 08:25 AM
Percidae Percidae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
Possibly but since we do not charge for electronic results the only thing meet management is paying for is a paper copy. The electronic version is in our proprietary live results system. If we were to use the standard hytek results or post them as a pdf then milesplit can easily get the results as they have written programs to do just this for them.
If milesplit was a free site, as it used to be, then taking results from timing companies websites would not be as big a deal and most might event send them what they need but if they are making money from their site and not paying the people "GIVING" them the info then how is that fair.
We have given a paper copy to a local newspaper if they are actually on site and ask for it also.
Correct me if I am wrong, which I don't think I am because I just tried it, but the raw results are free content on Milesplit. It is only the value added capabilities and some content that has nothing to do with meet results that are exclusive to paying members.
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  #28  
Old 04-18-18, 09:18 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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there are many purposes of milesplit.
I NEVER thought that a primary purpose was to "pouch the times from timing companies" or off of baumspage for that matter.
I always thought that the main purpose was to promote the sport and the athletes/teams and to give some information about to parents/fans/coaches.
The virtual meets and rankings give people things to look at and to discuss, but is NEVER going to be the gospel... Neither will finishtiming, deltatiming, baumspage or any other site. Still, better than driving across the State to find newspapers that are not reliable either. Although, I did enjoy eating at some small-town diners on Sunday mornings.
Many of the marks have always been suspect at least to downright bogus at times.... this is due to hand-held times being recorded as FAT, mismeasuring in the field event, metric marks listed as english and even college marks in the HS rankings. No matter where you find results, will it help your athltes jump or throw higher/further, run faster or improve their technique? Also, If a kid is listed in 5 individual events and in 3 relays, they probably will not be in all those events at a conference or district meet.
and... if a kid is listed as running 10.49 in the 100 at a tri-meet after school (along with sub 11 by 3 others) in 40 degree weather, and 12.11 a month later at the conference meet, then you might not want to accept that they are a 10.5 100 meter runner.

Milesplit is only Obsolete if you think that it is supposed give you all results AND results before a meet takes place.
Now, I wish milesplit was free as well, but I would never do what they do without being compensated. Personally, I could take it or leave it, but that was true when it was free as well.

I still get most of my results from baumspage, but realize they are only as good as those entering marks or timing.
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  #29  
Old 04-18-18, 09:28 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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A couple of different thoughts here. The first is that there is no way that the data itself belongs to the timing company unless the contract were to specifically state that, and even then I doubt a court would sustain the company owning the data. On the other hand, the company can certainly own their publication of that data. So I am definitely going to make sure that going forward, an electronic copy of the results is ours for our home meets. (All of our recent meets have been timed by TimingFirst, and they have great customer service are great about access to the results in any form we need, so it is not an issue for us. When we had FinishTiming they were also perfectly accommodating. So this is not a dig at any timing companies we have used.)

When Altor mentioned FERPA my first thought was that he is correct, these probably don't fall under that. Then I stopped and looked at our guidelines (those online trainings we have to do at the start of every school year are coming in handy). I still don't think these would constitute educational records, but we have procedures in place to make sure that kids names are not associated online with the school if the parents don't want them to be. So maybe FERPA might apply. This is not a big deal if I am publishing results (I know if there is a student whose results we can't publish) but if those results are the property of the timing company, I wonder if they too need affirmative permission from each parent/student to publish the student names associated with their schools? Likely if the contractual relationship makes the results the property of the school that isn't an issue. The timing company is providing posting as part of their service to the school. An interesting question.

Back to the topic at hand. What coaches, fans and athletes really want are rankings that include accurate, complete results. I completely understand why timing companies did not want to cooperate without compensation when Milesplit went to a for pay model. Milesplit was profiting off of their work without providing them any compensation. Furthermore, Milesplit was trying to use public pressure to force the timing companies to do more work for Milesplit. As run4life indicated, if anyone has a responsibility for posting the results or getting them into the right hands, it is the coach of the home team. I do still think that we coaches could probably set up our own aggregation site. Maybe OATCCC could host it? I am confident that most timing companies are going to be willing to provide the host school with an electronic copy of the results, and it wouldn't be that hard to write a set of scripts to pull the data out from those if coaches uploaded it.
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  #30  
Old 04-18-18, 10:31 AM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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Originally Posted by madman View Post
Wow. So you're saying that if I hire Finishtiming to time my meet that you will only allow me to access the results through your site or a paper copy at the meet? In essence, the school doesn't own the rights to our meet results?

If Finishtiming and it's website were to cease to exist, then there were be no historical record of the meet unless someone held on to a paper copy they received at the meet?

Seriously?
The pdf file we would give you for your records would be exactly the same as the printout. What I am saying is that we provide LIVE results at the meet and print them if needed for your announcer. If host wants a pdf copy we send to them but we do not provide them to milesplit or anyone else for that matter.
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