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  #31  
Old 01-23-19, 11:31 AM
BacktoBack BacktoBack is offline
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This is a deep discussion and I think there are a lot of layers.

Motion offenses should always be difficult to scout if run properly. I stress the last part of that sentence because effective motion offenses, as you climb the ladder of competition, rely on players ability to read the game and make good decisions in real time. This is a skill that most players have to be taught.

One of the biggest problems in the game of basketball is teaching and development in youth basketball. I don't want to debate the merits of AAU, travel, rec and all of that, but teaching at a high school level requires some kind of foundation of knowledge on the part of the players.

The best teams I have seen at a high school level year in and year out have a system in place. The young kids in the system are running a "shell" of the high school level system and there is a progression. This progression helps the kids learn how to play basketball, not just how to run plays and not just how to run up and down the floor. But it takes time, supervision, patience and often isn't super exciting. In addition, you will get your clock cleaned at younger ages when you play teams that have superior athletes and/or superior individual players. Like so many things in life, the teaching you do in youth basketball pays its real dividends down the line.

There is definitely a hierarchy among coaches in terms of their ability and willingness to teach. But there are a lot who I think would like to teach, but don't have kids with the basketball IQ to learn. I know this because I lived it as an untaught player and later as a learned coach. All I knew how to do was get up and down the floor running and jumping. I think back and it was a disgrace. We were taught virtually nothing. I think kids deserve better, but it really has to start on some level before high school.

A team full of kids who have been playing for 5+ years each, should easily be able to switch between sets in the way you describe. I'm just not ready to put it all on the high school coach. Youth BBall is not doing the job on the teaching end and I think the performances you are seeing are, in some ways, a result of that. Generally, youth basketball selects for the early developers, physically superior and most aggressive. These metrics change from 3rd-12th grade, and without knowledge, you have a court full of athletes who know how to eurostep, but can't defend a pick and roll.

I'll be interested to hear others thoughts on this. I am really down on high school bball because of it. I consider myself a big fan, but the low level of play is more and more disappointing to me.
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  #32  
Old 01-23-19, 11:36 AM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BacktoBack View Post
This is a deep discussion and I think there are a lot of layers.

Motion offenses should always be difficult to scout if run properly. I stress the last part of that sentence because effective motion offenses, as you climb the ladder of competition, rely on players ability to read the game and make good decisions in real time. This is a skill that most players have to be taught.

One of the biggest problems in the game of basketball is teaching and development in youth basketball. I don't want to debate the merits of AAU, travel, rec and all of that, but teaching at a high school level requires some kind of foundation of knowledge on the part of the players.

The best teams I have seen at a high school level year in and year out have a system in place. The young kids in the system are running a "shell" of the high school level system and there is a progression. This progression helps the kids learn how to play basketball, not just how to run plays and not just how to run up and down the floor. But it takes time, supervision, patience and often isn't super exciting. In addition, you will get your clock cleaned at younger ages when you play teams that have superior athletes and/or superior individual players. Like so many things in life, the teaching you do in youth basketball pays its real dividends down the line.

There is definitely a hierarchy among coaches in terms of their ability and willingness to teach. But there are a lot who I think would like to teach, but don't have kids with the basketball IQ to learn. I know this because I lived it as an untaught player and later as a learned coach. All I knew how to do was get up and down the floor running and jumping. I think back and it was a disgrace. We were taught virtually nothing. I think kids deserve better, but it really has to start on some level before high school.

A team full of kids who have been playing for 5+ years each, should easily be able to switch between sets in the way you describe. I'm just not ready to put it all on the high school coach. Youth BBall is not doing the job on the teaching end and I think the performances you are seeing are, in some ways, a result of that. Generally, youth basketball selects for the early developers, physically superior and most aggressive. These metrics change from 3rd-12th grade, and without knowledge, you have a court full of athletes who know how to eurostep, but can't defend a pick and roll.

I'll be interested to hear others thoughts on this. I am really down on high school bball because of it. I consider myself a big fan, but the low level of play is more and more disappointing to me.
This is a great post. And I would add that the early developers, physically superior, and most aggressive are likely the kids who don't have the greatest IQ because they've been able to get away with less skill because of these attributes.

Then they get to varsity high school, and the physical aspect has caught up, and they are limited with skill. See it all the time.

And you are right, there are many layers at play:

* Focus on winning over skill development in grade school
* Inflexibility of coaches to go outside their comfort zone
* AAU culture of me over team
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  #33  
Old 01-23-19, 11:55 AM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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Agree there needs to be a level of competence at the youth level to filter up to high school. I have seen that in many of our local communities. True, there is too much "let the athletic 4th grader do whatever he wants" and then he is a washout down the line. What I have seen at the youth and middle school levels is an astounding lack of skill development....guys showing up in high school with poor shooting technique, posture, footwork and ball handling. Most middle school teams have 13+ kids and one coach. Too many kids to develop...too many kids to adequately teach. To run a true and effective motion offense at least 4 of your floor players have to be able to catch (!)...pass and aggressively cut with speed and footwork...but equally important, they need to be a threat on the catch to score the ball. To me it is a very difficult offense to rely on for those simple facts. Few teams have enough athletes to run it well...don't get me wrong, some obviously do. That said there is so much you can do with other looks! To my old eyes it seems coaches are needlessly complicating things...Teach your bigs proper footwork and finishing on the block...screening and the ability to use it properly seem to have vanished....teach good screening....most times I see a simple pick and roll with shooters ready to catch and shoot would work...or the old simple high/low with shooters in both corners....just simply passing and cutting never seems to work....especially if the defense doesn't chase cutters (Wyopming does a really good job at this on defense!)...
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  #34  
Old 01-23-19, 12:03 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
Agree there needs to be a level of competence at the youth level to filter up to high school. I have seen that in many of our local communities. True, there is too much "let the athletic 4th grader do whatever he wants" and then he is a washout down the line. What I have seen at the youth and middle school levels is an astounding lack of skill development....guys showing up in high school with poor shooting technique, posture, footwork and ball handling. Most middle school teams have 13+ kids and one coach. Too many kids to develop...too many kids to adequately teach. To run a true and effective motion offense at least 4 of your floor players have to be able to catch (!)...pass and aggressively cut with speed and footwork...but equally important, they need to be a threat on the catch to score the ball. To me it is a very difficult offense to rely on for those simple facts. Few teams have enough athletes to run it well...don't get me wrong, some obviously do. That said there is so much you can do with other looks! To my old eyes it seems coaches are needlessly complicating things...Teach your bigs proper footwork and finishing on the block...screening and the ability to use it properly seem to have vanished....teach good screening....most times I see a simple pick and roll with shooters ready to catch and shoot would work...or the old simple high/low with shooters in both corners....just simply passing and cutting never seems to work....especially if the defense doesn't chase cutters (Wyopming does a really good job at this on defense!)...
Also a very good post. I will add something that I think is very impactful:

No pick up games anymore. Pick up games, without any coaches, are the way most kids learned how to score. There was no pressure from coaches to do things the right way, you just went out and played. Over time, you realized what you could and couldn't do on the court.

There really isn't an avenue for kids to go out and find themselves as a basketball player. It's all structured today.
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  #35  
Old 01-23-19, 12:03 PM
coachablekid coachablekid is offline
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This is a great topic! I have always heard people say don't try to re- invent the wheel or don't make the game complicated. I am a fan of the game as well and too me it is good to re-invent the wheel and not to complicate the game. I am a defense type of guy, so I love to see good man to man, mixed up with the different zones. Offensively it so many variations of motion offenses and zone offenses that you can complicate the kids if you have too many.
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  #36  
Old 01-23-19, 12:32 PM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolPanther View Post
Also a very good post. I will add something that I think is very impactful:

No pick up games anymore. Pick up games, without any coaches, are the way most kids learned how to score. There was no pressure from coaches to do things the right way, you just went out and played. Over time, you realized what you could and couldn't do on the court.

There really isn't an avenue for kids to go out and find themselves as a basketball player. It's all structured today.
I agree but...there are still pick up games around...I belong to the Y and I see tons of pick up going on at Finneytown, Blue Ash and down at Central...You just have to want to go! And also realize like our old school days: You will be playing with not only high school kids but college guys and young adults which intimidates these kids I suppose. Back in my day all comers played and winners stayed...what a thrill it was when a good team asked you to run with them . I have seen many kids in these games with terrific skills. Then, I see them play in a boring high school game where their scoring ability is totally stymied by a terrible half court offense. Further, while I am not a fan of the AAU system in general (Much of it stinks, even though I coached for several years in it) at least I see some of these kids get to show their ability more and have a little fun, take some shots, get out on the break...
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  #37  
Old 01-23-19, 12:38 PM
HardCorps HardCorps is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Real game situation where I was sitting behind the bench of a girls team that was just getting dominated by the defense who was clearly fully aware of how their opponent ran their offense.

The coach started calling time outs early, mid way in first quarter, and kept telling the girls they were not running the offense correctly, but to keep working at it "Just like we practiced". This was a regional semi final by the way, both teams had 20 plus wins on the season.

A few more empty possessions and nothing changed. I thought good, halftime is here, changes will be made, and we will see a better game second half.

Well, they ran the same offense again, were shut down again, and the game quickly slipped out of control. That is the epitome of saying I come with a plan and will not deviate from it. I don't think it is arrogance as much as misplaced confidence.
Speaking of timeouts, I watch a lot of good teams throughout the season and coaches are time-out crazy. If there are time-outs, they definitely do not go to waste which is fine. With that being said, I rarely see a coach allow his point guard to run the show as the team prepares for a final shot. That is not a skill hardly any coaches facilitate.
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  #38  
Old 01-23-19, 12:39 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Or outside. We lived at the outdoor courts.

And I agree on the skills comment. Is it that kids don't have the skills, or they aren't allowed the freedom to use them? Too much structure. Let them free!!!
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  #39  
Old 01-23-19, 12:54 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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AAU and select basketball is the scourge of the sport.

Parents dumping thousands of dollars into the pockets of con artists with the hope of Little Johnny or Little Suzie getting a full ride somewhere.....

Meanwhile, nobody knows how to play basketball. Can't score, can't shoot, can't pass, can't rebound....

You had to play like a team on the playground or your team was out, and potentially done for the day.....

That's doesn't happen with the garbage that's being played in the summer now......

That's why the sport has suffered.
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  #40  
Old 01-23-19, 02:22 PM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
AAU and select basketball is the scourge of the sport.

Parents dumping thousands of dollars into the pockets of con artists with the hope of Little Johnny or Little Suzie getting a full ride somewhere.....

Meanwhile, nobody knows how to play basketball. Can't score, can't shoot, can't pass, can't rebound....

You had to play like a team on the playground or your team was out, and potentially done for the day.....

That's doesn't happen with the garbage that's being played in the summer now......

That's why the sport has suffered.
Some of that is true...there are many shady programs and crazy parents out there to be sure...but some of it is decent basketball...several local high school coaches coach (Coach Price from Oak Hills is one) as do some former college players. Unfortunately, if a kid has any desire to play beyond high school he/she is forced down that road. College coaches pay attention because it is during their off season, it gathers supposedly good players in one spot and it showcases talent more...college coaches aren't interested in how well a kid can run a 2 minute set of "chin" (shot clock)...they want to see shooting, running the floor, IQ and believe it or not defense to some degree...and at the time this is the system in place...too bad it is for profit. There are some nice kids and nice teams out there playing because they love to play not because they are a future "meal ticket"
for a family.
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  #41  
Old 01-23-19, 07:29 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Don't disagree at all about specific coaches and their methods that work.... My comments, as most are on here take the entirety (nationally) into consideration.

There are good programs, but as a whole, the summer/select sports have been a detriment to the sports involved from a High School standpoint. It shows the last 10 years in baseball and basketball alone and is headed that way in volleyball (due to too many teams)
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  #42  
Old 01-23-19, 08:59 PM
OldSchoolPanther OldSchoolPanther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Jock and Chad View Post
Some of that is true...there are many shady programs and crazy parents out there to be sure...but some of it is decent basketball...several local high school coaches coach (Coach Price from Oak Hills is one) as do some former college players. Unfortunately, if a kid has any desire to play beyond high school he/she is forced down that road. College coaches pay attention because it is during their off season, it gathers supposedly good players in one spot and it showcases talent more...college coaches aren't interested in how well a kid can run a 2 minute set of "chin" (shot clock)...they want to see shooting, running the floor, IQ and believe it or not defense to some degree...and at the time this is the system in place...too bad it is for profit. There are some nice kids and nice teams out there playing because they love to play not because they are a future "meal ticket"
for a family.
What does Coach Price do that others don't? Not questioning, just curious what his methods are. I hear this all of the time about him.
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  #43  
Old 01-23-19, 09:31 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Don't disagree at all about specific coaches and their methods that work.... My comments, as most are on here take the entirety (nationally) into consideration.

There are good programs, but as a whole, the summer/select sports have been a detriment to the sports involved from a High School standpoint. It shows the last 10 years in baseball and basketball alone and is headed that way in volleyball (due to too many teams)
In terms of the select, elite teams and such that kids are starting at ayoung and younger age...

My theory.....I dont see the HS sports any better than they were 20 plus years ago when I played. I really dont. They should be much, much better with all of them playing all of these elite travel select etc

What is the disconnect?

Practice time At thebaseball level, I see them playing 3 to 4 times more games per year than we did, but they practice significantly less because of so many games. Our ole HS coach, whom they are writing a book about and soon to be released in FEB, would have a practice before or after games when the weather was good and we were playing almost every day because when you play you miss out on the small details of the game that will win, or lose, you a big game.
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  #44  
Old 01-23-19, 11:24 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
What is the disconnect?
You nailed it below.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Practice time At thebaseball level, I see them playing 3 to 4 times more games per year than we did, but they practice significantly less because of so many games.
Same thing happens with basketball as we have seen with baseball.

All games. No teaching.

The game has suffered
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  #45  
Old 01-24-19, 01:18 AM
1 time 1 time is offline
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Most of those posts are right on and good luck at changing most of that
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  #46  
Old 01-24-19, 01:28 AM
CedarBuck92 CedarBuck92 is offline
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Maybe I should restate my earlier comment.
I have no issues with coaches having a system that they like to teach. But they need to be flexible within that system. Some years the PG can best facilitate from the top of the key and others he needs to be allowed to drive and kick.
My biggest issue with the current coach at my HS is his obsession with taking the "best" shot. This leads the boys to pass up open and very makable shots to keep passing the ball trying to find the best shot. and lots of turnovers.
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  #47  
Old 01-24-19, 07:30 AM
Sports Jock and Chad Sports Jock and Chad is offline
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Originally Posted by CedarBuck92 View Post
Maybe I should restate my earlier comment.
I have no issues with coaches having a system that they like to teach. But they need to be flexible within that system. Some years the PG can best facilitate from the top of the key and others he needs to be allowed to drive and kick.
My biggest issue with the current coach at my HS is his obsession with taking the "best" shot. This leads the boys to pass up open and very makable shots to keep passing the ball trying to find the best shot. and lots of turnovers.

My thoughts exactly and the reason I started this thread. We are losing many of the great facets of the game due to some type of mass conformity
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