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  #211  
Old 06-14-14, 11:35 AM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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Heaven Help Us is on HBO and it made me think again, do any of you really believe simply being a priest or nun makes you a good person? I don't. I'd rather be a person of no religion that acted as a good human being than a terrible person who used their religion as a shield. That's where common sense is lacking in this contract. Supporting gay rights, having pre marital sex, etc doesn't make you a bad person. A bad person is somebody who treats others in a rude, demeaning manner. I can point to several examples in my life of priests/nuns who sucked as people, but bc they abide by the rules of this contract they're better fit to teach our kids? I don't buy it, not for a second.
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  #212  
Old 06-16-14, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Nelson Van Alden View Post
Heaven Help Us is on HBO and it made me think again, do any of you really believe simply being a priest or nun makes you a good person? I don't. I'd rather be a person of no religion that acted as a good human being than a terrible person who used their religion as a shield. That's where common sense is lacking in this contract. Supporting gay rights, having pre marital sex, etc doesn't make you a bad person. A bad person is somebody who treats others in a rude, demeaning manner. I can point to several examples in my life of priests/nuns who sucked as people, but bc they abide by the rules of this contract they're better fit to teach our kids? I don't buy it, not for a second.
Sadly, this is exactly what the hardcore of the faith believe.
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  #213  
Old 06-16-14, 07:53 AM
cjb56 cjb56 is online now
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I've read this thread and I've seen the story on TV, online and in the newspaper.

Teachers are educators and role models. These particular teachers are teaching in private, Catholic schools, therefore they are signing a contract that they will adhere to the teachings of the Church in their daily lives. That is not an unusual demand to make of an educator and role model in a Catholic school setting. For every teacher they lose as a result of this, they will find teachers who will take their place. There is no controversy here. Any teacher who doesn't want to sign the contract is free to find other employment. Any parent who doesn't like it is free to send their kids elsewhere.
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  #214  
Old 06-16-14, 08:37 AM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Sadly, this is exactly what the hardcore of the faith believe.
I have to believe the quality of education has improved greatly as schools have shifted to teachers who are educators first. I'd much rather have a person with knowledge of a subject teaching than a priest reading from a text book.
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  #215  
Old 06-16-14, 08:39 AM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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Originally Posted by cjb56 View Post
I've read this thread and I've seen the story on TV, online and in the newspaper.

Teachers are educators and role models. These particular teachers are teaching in private, Catholic schools, therefore they are signing a contract that they will adhere to the teachings of the Church in their daily lives. That is not an unusual demand to make of an educator and role model in a Catholic school setting. For every teacher they lose as a result of this, they will find teachers who will take their place. There is no controversy here. Any teacher who doesn't want to sign the contract is free to find other employment. Any parent who doesn't like it is free to send their kids elsewhere.
I doubt it. Good teachers aren't easy to find, and what same person would sign this contract unless a catholic school was their last option? They're already getting paid little compared to public school teachers and now you want to restrict their personal life?
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  #216  
Old 06-16-14, 07:30 PM
ElderHockeyDad ElderHockeyDad is offline
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Originally Posted by Nelson Van Alden View Post
I doubt it. Good teachers aren't easy to find, and what same person would sign this contract unless a catholic school was their last option? They're already getting paid little compared to public school teachers and now you want to restrict their personal life?
So what you are saying is that teacher who live their lives according to this contract are not a good of teacher as those that won't? Most teachers in Catholic schools are there because it is their last option?
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  #217  
Old 06-16-14, 08:34 PM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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So what you are saying is that teacher who live their lives according to this contract are not a good of teacher as those that won't? Most teachers in Catholic schools are there because it is their last option?
Grasping at straws there. My point is the contract could lead to scrapping the bottom of the barrel for teachers. I think of it this way, would I want to teach at OLV or Rapid Run? At OLV you make 20% less a year, and have your life governed by this contract. The only pro is the discipline aspect, and that's not enough to outweigh the $ and freedom outside of school.

I believe this contract will act as a deterrent to attracting the best and brightest EDUCATORS. Elder will be ok, bc so many teachers are alumni and loyal to the school. However, I believe the grade schools across the city will be hurt by this.

Simply put, I'd rather a woman who was having Lesbian pre-marital sex and impregnated via invitro (assuming this was all done in private) teach my kid math if she has an education degree with a focus in mathematics, than a priest or nun with no expertise reading from a text book. I honestly do not see why a person's personal life impacts non-religious subjects, it does not make one bit of sense. If we want to religion and theology teachers to this standard, I think that makes a good deal of sense, but that's as far as I can go on that side of the fence.
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  #218  
Old 06-16-14, 09:26 PM
Sam Fischer Sam Fischer is offline
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Isn't this basically the same thing as the sterling deal? He signed a contract to conduct himself a certain way. Basically act the way the nba tell you to.

Most of you agreed with the ruling. Now you don't want another private place to do exactly what the nba did?
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  #219  
Old 06-16-14, 09:55 PM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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Isn't this basically the same thing as the sterling deal? He signed a contract to conduct himself a certain way. Basically act the way the nba tell you to.

Most of you agreed with the ruling. Now you don't want another private place to do exactly what the nba did?
Not really, conduct is a relative term. Sterling's contract didn't prohibit him from having an extramarital affair or really anything that limited the way he lived his life. Anyone would be fired from their job if they made remarks similar to those that became PUBLIC, that's the big differentiator. For instance, if a teacher accidentally shows a sex tape to her class, which did happen, she should be fired.
Making the comments/video in private shouldn't break any contract stipulation, it's when they become public that discharge become the best course of action.
Bottom line, keep the secular subjects secular and the religious subjects religious. I do not believe for one instance a teacher of math, science,etc. engaging in the "taboo" behavior outline in the contract should face consequences. I would be more concerned about any issues with alcoholism or drug use, those have the greatest ability to affect someone's work.
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  #220  
Old 06-17-14, 06:12 AM
Sam Fischer Sam Fischer is offline
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I find hard to believe that a person who doesn't 'believe' can teach the faith based subject effectively when most of it requires passion and faith. If a teacher teaches with a ho hum or 'this is bs' the kids will catch on.

I agree that you may be missing out on some great teachers, but it is a private school, they are big on religion.
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  #221  
Old 06-17-14, 06:27 AM
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No one is suggesting they hire atheists.
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  #222  
Old 06-17-14, 06:34 AM
Sam Fischer Sam Fischer is offline
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I am not sure how you can dissect any religion, pick out the parts you like, then still call yourself a believer. At that point it starts to become a whole new religion. Maybe that's what's needed.
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  #223  
Old 06-19-14, 09:16 AM
sideline89 sideline89 is offline
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Interesting article in light of the conversation.


http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06...d-pride-march/
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  #224  
Old 06-24-14, 09:02 PM
ElderHockeyDad ElderHockeyDad is offline
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This make sense to me:

http://lifeteen.com/catholics-care-a...myth-debunked/
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  #225  
Old 06-25-14, 02:00 AM
stxbomber43 stxbomber43 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Fischer View Post
I find hard to believe that a person who doesn't 'believe' can teach the faith based subject effectively when most of it requires passion and faith. If a teacher teaches with a ho hum or 'this is bs' the kids will catch on.

I agree that you may be missing out on some great teachers, but it is a private school, they are big on religion.
I can tell you for a fact that in my 12 years of Catholic schooling not once did the subject of in-vitro fertilization or homosexuality and the Church's position towards these come up. These contracts are excessive and not needed to ensure that kids are being raised in accordance with the values of the church, the important values that is.
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  #226  
Old 06-25-14, 11:18 AM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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Not to me. Contraceptives/birth control are necessary, even for married couples. It's financially irresponsible for most people to have 5,6,7 kids. Seriously, unless you're a millionaire how do you pay CATHOLIC school tuition for that many kids? It's basically 40k for one kid to go through HS. Grade school is what, maybe half that for 8 yrs. So roughly 60 k per kid for catholic education before they get to college? It's not doable for the vast majority of people. Shows how out of touch the church is.
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  #227  
Old 06-30-14, 12:46 PM
sideline89 sideline89 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nelson Van Alden View Post
Not to me. Contraceptives/birth control are necessary, even for married couples. It's financially irresponsible for most people to have 5,6,7 kids. Seriously, unless you're a millionaire how do you pay CATHOLIC school tuition for that many kids? It's basically 40k for one kid to go through HS. Grade school is what, maybe half that for 8 yrs. So roughly 60 k per kid for catholic education before they get to college? It's not doable for the vast majority of people. Shows how out of touch the church is.
No, it shows how out of touch you are about the Catholic Faith. For Married Catholics it would be morally irresponsible for them to use contraceptives. And if they plan on using them at the time of their wedding it actually makes the wedding null and void and it can be annulled. No one has to be a millionaire to have a large family. It takes a lot of love and patience but it doesn't require a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, some money is needed to make ends meet, but I know many large Catholic families and they take care of their kids temporal needs. Many of them home school their children to help keep their expenses down. And their kids turn out to be good, productive adults. It does take a lot of sacrifice on the married couples part, which is what love is all about.
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  #228  
Old 06-30-14, 12:49 PM
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Why would it be morally irresponsible? If contraception on the wedding night makes a marriage null and void, there aren't many married Catholics then and a lot of Catholic bastards out there.
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  #229  
Old 06-30-14, 12:54 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Fischer View Post
I find hard to believe that a person who doesn't 'believe' can teach the faith based subject effectively when most of it requires passion and faith. If a teacher teaches with a ho hum or 'this is bs' the kids will catch on.

I agree that you may be missing out on some great teachers, but it is a private school, they are big on religion.
Lol isn't that 99% of Catholics?
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  #230  
Old 06-30-14, 01:02 PM
cjb56 cjb56 is online now
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Lol isn't that 99% of Catholics?
No, but it's almost all of you Elder and lads, it seems.
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  #231  
Old 06-30-14, 01:50 PM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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No, it shows how out of touch you are about the Catholic Faith. For Married Catholics it would be morally irresponsible for them to use contraceptives. And if they plan on using them at the time of their wedding it actually makes the wedding null and void and it can be annulled. No one has to be a millionaire to have a large family. It takes a lot of love and patience but it doesn't require a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, some money is needed to make ends meet, but I know many large Catholic families and they take care of their kids temporal needs. Many of them home school their children to help keep their expenses down. And their kids turn out to be good, productive adults. It does take a lot of sacrifice on the married couples part, which is what love is all about.
Dude, you're are living in a bubble. Wages haven't kept pace with inflation over the last 30 years. Meanwhile, tuition everywhere has skyrocketed. I'd rather save $ by having 2 kids and sending them to Elder, than having 6 or 7 kids and being forced to send them to Oak Hills. And you didn't even mention college. Not everyone has to go, but you better get damn good at a trade if you want to make a decent living. There's the way things should be and there's the way things are, and it's my personal belief your approach is irresponsible in today's economic climate.
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  #232  
Old 06-30-14, 02:55 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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There are other ways to responsibly limit the number of children you have without the use of the various birth control methods that the church doesn't support. But if you are Catholic and you use contraceptives/birth control you're going against church teachings and are therefore sinning. It doesn't matter how financially irresponsible it can be.
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  #233  
Old 06-30-14, 04:21 PM
Nelson Van Alden Nelson Van Alden is offline
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There are other ways to responsibly limit the number of children you have without the use of the various birth control methods that the church doesn't support. But if you are Catholic and you use contraceptives/birth control you're going against church teachings and are therefore sinning. It doesn't matter how financially irresponsible it can be.
And that's why the faith is outdated and for Sideline's point about home school, how in god's name could 1 person teach 6 diff't kids at 6 diff't grade levels, it's inefficient. It seems Catholic education in the past had some priorities that were out of whack. I just can't fathom how a family of 6 kids with one working parent could make ends meat unless that parent pulled in 300 K/ yr, minimum. The cost of education is a much, much, higher % of a family's income than it was 40-50 yrs ago, when big Catholic families were common.
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  #234  
Old 06-30-14, 04:48 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
There are other ways to responsibly limit the number of children you have without the use of the various birth control methods that the church doesn't support. But if you are Catholic and you use contraceptives/birth control you're going against church teachings and are therefore sinning. It doesn't matter how financially irresponsible it can be.
What are the other ways, out of curiosity?
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  #235  
Old 06-30-14, 05:03 PM
LEONARD LEONARD is offline
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What are the other ways, out of curiosity?
Yeah, besides abstaining pretty sure the only method is the uhh well just say "pulling your troops out of the combat zone" and still even then your playing a numbers game.
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  #236  
Old 06-30-14, 07:02 PM
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Yeah, besides abstaining pretty sure the only method is the uhh well just say "pulling your troops out of the combat zone" and still even then your playing a numbers game.
Um, no. The church doesn't support the withdrawal technique. I believe it still support Natural Family Planning.
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  #237  
Old 06-30-14, 07:09 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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What is NFP?
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  #238  
Old 06-30-14, 09:51 PM
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What is NFP?
Not For Protestants.
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  #239  
Old 07-01-14, 07:58 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nelson Van Alden View Post
And that's why the faith is outdated and for Sideline's point about home school, how in god's name could 1 person teach 6 diff't kids at 6 diff't grade levels, it's inefficient. It seems Catholic education in the past had some priorities that were out of whack. I just can't fathom how a family of 6 kids with one working parent could make ends meat unless that parent pulled in 300 K/ yr, minimum. The cost of education is a much, much, higher % of a family's income than it was 40-50 yrs ago, when big Catholic families were common.
There are a lot of church teachings that are outdated, this isn't one of them. I understand your argument but there are other ways to limit the amount of children other than contraceptives/birth control. NFP being the big one and obviously abstinence.
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  #240  
Old 07-01-14, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
There are a lot of church teachings that are outdated, this isn't one of them. I understand your argument but there are other ways to limit the amount of children other than contraceptives/birth control. NFP being the big one and obviously abstinence.
I think it's completely outdated. I get the sex out of wedlock position, but why is it a sin for a married couple to use a condom or birth control?
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