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  #1  
Old 11-30-15, 08:48 PM
runohio runohio is offline
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Keeping Track, Lacrosse and more

Will the OHSAA have two divisions next year for 120 boys Lacrosse teams even though in the past the OHSAA have said you need 150 schools sponsoring a sport to have an OHSAA championships and 250 schools sponsoring a sport to have two divisions. Yet, Track & Field which is one of the most diverse sports with their 16 events has only three divisions even though the National Federation of State High School Associations says Ohio has 759 schools which have a boys track and field team. .. YET, only has 3 divisions and the OHSAA says there should be four divisions if over 750 schools sponsor a sport. (note the OHSAA says you need to have 9 athletes on the track & field team to count the school as sponsoring the sport even though the OHSAA gave the 2015 Boys Division III Track & Field Championship trophy to a team which only had 7 athletes on their roster)

Keeping Track - http://runohio.com/index.php/feature...-keeping-track

More - http://runohio.com/index.php/feature...th-its-mission


www.runohio.com

Last edited by runohio; 11-30-15 at 09:19 PM..
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  #2  
Old 12-01-15, 01:34 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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great post.
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  #3  
Old 12-01-15, 09:12 PM
WWR Raider WWR Raider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runohio View Post

"OHSAA gave the 2015 Boys Division III Track & Field Championship trophy to a team which only had 7 athletes on their roster"


www.runohio.com
OHSAA didn't "give" the 2015 Boys Division III Track & Field Team Championship Trophy to Warren JFK. They earned it. They scored 48 points. More than any other team with 1, 2, 15, 20 or more athletes. I fail to understand your constant complaining about the fact that they only had 7 athletes on their roster. It's getting old. Move on...
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Old 12-01-15, 09:29 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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There will be 2 divisions in Lacrosse in it's first year "because the Lacross coaches already have 2 divisions" and the OHSAA feels like the schools that don't have it will begin adding teams to fill their ranks.
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  #5  
Old 12-02-15, 06:12 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Raider the complaint is not against Warren JFK. It is against an arbitrary rule that says that the team that won the state championship doesn't count as a team by OHSAA rules. Warren JFK happens to be the most recent and telling example for why that rule is a little bit ridiculous.
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  #6  
Old 12-02-15, 08:29 AM
long time coach long time coach is offline
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I agree track & field is the most diverse sport with their various events. If the city schools coaches and administrators would look at track and field the same way they did the charter student issue (and complain to the OHSAA) maybe we would have four divisions in track and field.
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  #7  
Old 12-02-15, 05:50 PM
runohio runohio is offline
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Thanks ccrunner609 and mathking.

No disrespect to Warren JFK - Chad Zallow is a great athlete and they deserve the trophy but the OHSAA should also recognize them as having the sport and count them in the number of schools which offer the sport....

How can the OHSAA not count their school or any school which scores in the District meet as having a team. Two years ago the National Federation of State High School Associations recognizes 788 boys track & field teams in Ohio. (Basketball at 799 would be the only sport with more teams)

Here is by my article in the previous RUNOHIO.

... the public address announcer at Jesse Owens’ Stadium, when introducing the boys’ Division III team champion stated, "It doesn't take a lot of athletes to make up a track team as Warren JFK with only seven athletes on the boys track team won with 48 points."

I would suggest that if a school scores in the District meet, it should be counted as a team, as it would then have a team score in the OHSAA post-season. If the total number of teams recognized by the OHSAA would increase to 750 teams, a fourth division would probably have to be added. Is this the reason the OHSAA does not count all teams in Ohio?"

More - http://runohio.com/index.php/feature...h-its-mission-
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  #8  
Old 12-02-15, 05:57 PM
runohio runohio is offline
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According to Rod O'Donnell's Keeping Track article in the current issue of RUNOHIO...

Last year 5,009 (169 boys teams and 160 girls’ teams) student-athletes participated in indoor track. With outdoor track following this winter sport, there is no additional cost for facilities, coaches, or equipment. Yet the OHSAA will not sanction the sport or even give it emerging sport status. - See more -
http://runohio.com/index.php/feature...-keeping-track
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  #9  
Old 12-03-15, 07:48 AM
AGK77 AGK77 is offline
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It is just sad indoor track has not been officially recognized and outdoor track should have 4 divions for sure.
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  #10  
Old 12-03-15, 08:14 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Dont let the OHSAA do anything with indoor track. THe coaches association isnt bound to their stupid rules and run a great meet with the OHSAA.
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  #11  
Old 12-03-15, 08:40 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Dont let the OHSAA do anything with indoor track. THe coaches association isnt bound to their stupid rules and run a great meet with the OHSAA.
100% agree. OHSAA can only screw up indoor track.

Right now the ambiguity of indoor track rules basically open up to track all year round without any penalty. No coaching rules, regulations or penalties.

No travel rules, no meet rules, no eligibility rules, etc.

At the same time, I don't believe coaches are breaking rules or pushing boundaries. Coaches are smart enough to know to give kids a good 2 weeks between seasons and then to start training gradually. The gradual training allows Ohio to compete with other states at the National level.

The best part of indoor track is that it is the only TRUE state meet in Ohio. If you really sit down and think about what it actually does...takes the BEST 18 times, distances etc. and brings them together regardless of region or district. The best 18 is much better than taking the best from the 4 corners of the state.

OHSAA would change this right away and throw a towel in the ring. Right now the coaches association OATCCC makes between 5-10,000 dollars on the indoor state meet with Akron making much more. There is no way OHSAA could make money on the indoor state meet.
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  #12  
Old 12-03-15, 10:13 AM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post



The best part of indoor track is that it is the only TRUE state meet in Ohio. If you really sit down and think about what it actually does...takes the BEST 18 times, distances etc. and brings them together regardless of region or district. The best 18 is much better than taking the best from the 4 corners of the state.



.

I agree that OATCCC does a great job w the indoor meet. It is close to being a "true" state meet, but not quite. They do not take the 18 best pet event in the case of a school having 3 (or more) of the top performers in an event. There is still a 2 athlete limit per school per event.
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  #13  
Old 12-03-15, 06:50 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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I agree that the OATCCC does a very good job with the State Indoor meet, but it is not close to a "True State Championship" in the sense that the top 18 kids in each event are not really there. Since many schools do not sponsor indoor track, it is only the top kids who's school has the sport AND some who qualify will not compete at the State Meet for other various reasons... including; 1) getting ready for outdoor track, ie not "competition ready" 2) being involved in basketball/wrestling. 3) coach/athlete not emphasizing indoor ... and more.

Her are some ideas:
-should the top 18 qualify regardless if one school has the top 4 pole vaulters... should all 4 get in?
-should a kid who is failing 5 classes get in even though they will not be eligible for outdoor?
-how about a "overaged" senior - say someone who will be 20 years old in April?
-What about a 17 year-old who dropped out of school so does not have a school representation?
-What about an 8th grade phenom?
-How about 2 relay teams from the same school if they qualify at the same meet?

A "True" State Championship may have to include all of these because there are examples of this over the past 5-6 years.

Here's one that gets me... a team qualifies in a relay with some 60 and 200 dash qualifiers plus a couple basketball players on a sunday meet in January. Then the b-ball team is in the tourney for the state meet, so the coach puts 4 slow runners in the relay at state where they get last just so 4 guys can "get the experience" and prevent a school from qualifiying at all.
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  #14  
Old 12-03-15, 08:10 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Are there schools that let an academically ineligible kid participate? Ours have the same standards for all activities, OHSAA or not. As for whether or not the indoor meet is a "true" championship or not, who cares? There are rules for participation and the team that scores the most points under those rules wins.
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  #15  
Old 12-03-15, 10:40 PM
madman madman is offline
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It's too easy to forget that at any level, the winner isn't necessarily the fastest person in the state, the country, or the world. They are merely the winner on that day, in that meet, under the rules governing that competition.

It is not infrequent that potentially the best athlete in a given event chooses not to participate in that event for a wide variety of reasons.

We can enthusiastically celebrate the victory of an athlete without reservation. Claiming they are the "best" in anything but that meet doesn't have much more validity than a poll - it will always be a matter of opinion.
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  #16  
Old 12-04-15, 08:06 AM
ENA ENA is offline
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Mathking,
Yes. We had an ineligible kid qualify to the State Indoor. He did NOT compete at the State meet because I would not declare him. However, he did compete well enough at the qualifiers to be int the top 10 marks... I think top 5. If he (or his parents register him and pay, how can we stop him) He and his folks thought he should get to compete at the State Indoor because he did qualify.
I am glad I stuck to my guns, but according to his parnets, Eye 89 and others the State Meet should be getting the Top athletes...regardless.

BTW, I have seen each of the scenarios that I posted earn potential qualifying marks (to be able to declare - top 25) for the State Indoor Meet. Now, I believe that most coaches would not declare those mark for the State meet and the website does a great job now of weeding them out by the deadline.

I also believe that most coaches would not enter their team at two meets on the same day then wait for the heat-sheets to come out and choose the one to go to and "block" others from entering the meets.... but some do. AND most do not enter bogus (world class) times just so their kids can have the best heat/lanes...but some do.
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  #17  
Old 12-04-15, 10:26 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Keeping Track, Lacrosse and more

ENA, I am glad that our district policy about participation is clear. It saves me from even having to entertain a request. We also tell athletes they have to participate as part of the team if they want to be on the team. So no entering unattached or with a club team at other meets. Kids are encouraged to be on our team but welcome to compete for a club team indoors and then for us outdoors. When kids are ineligible indoors (we have only been doing indoor for four years) we encourage them to use the winter to hit the books and get eligible. But we have had one case where a kid ran on a club team. And then was not eligible for outdoor.
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  #18  
Old 12-04-15, 10:39 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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Kids cannot participate in the Indoor State Meet unless they are with a OATCCC member/coach.
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  #19  
Old 12-04-15, 10:48 AM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatornation View Post
Kids cannot participate in the Indoor State Meet unless they are with a OATCCC member/coach.
And a school sponsored indoor track team, so wouldn't all athletes have to meet the district's eligibility standards for extra-curricular activities?
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  #20  
Old 12-04-15, 03:11 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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We have kids who come to practice (3 days a week) and meet all eligiblity requirements who I enter in meets in there chosen events but they must tell me 2-weeks prior. Those are the only ones who I will declare for the State meet if they qualify. But kids (or their parents) can and do enter at regular season meets and put the school as their affiliation. We Have had middle school athletes and post HS athlete also do this. Not sure how to stop them other than telling them not to... ( I don't really mind if a MS parent wants to take a kid to an indoor meet). The entry procedure may be different for some meets, but I try to get my kids entered early as to not get locked out. Also have gone to a meet with a couple kids and found that I had to pay for a kid who entered on his own and did not show...but since he was from my school, i paid.
This usually happens when a kid wants to compete, but does not want to commit to 3 days a week practice.... only a few times in over 10 years.
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  #21  
Old 12-04-15, 10:05 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENA View Post
Mathking,

I also believe that most coaches would not enter their team at two meets on the same day then wait for the heat-sheets to come out and choose the one to go to and "block" others from entering the meets.... but some do. AND most do not enter bogus (world class) times just so their kids can have the best heat/lanes...but some do.
There are still teams that will enter 2 meets to see which is going to have better competition. That is one of the reasons some have went to a pay in advance formula. Most of us timers will communicate with each other if we think we have a duplicate team. We know who the ones are that try it every year.
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  #22  
Old 12-06-15, 07:31 AM
fanofrunning fanofrunning is offline
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Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
There are still teams that will enter 2 meets to see which is going to have better competition. That is one of the reasons some have went to a pay in advance formula. Most of us timers will communicate with each other if we think we have a duplicate team. We know who the ones are that try it every year.
Is there a software solution for seeding heats to keep it honest? If I knew how to code, I would write a program that would take the entrants' names for sprint events and query Milesplit's data for results for those runners and seed according to times. Ah whatever, it's a fantasy.
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  #23  
Old 12-06-15, 01:27 PM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Originally Posted by ENA View Post
I am glad I stuck to my guns, but according to his parnets, Eye 89 and others the State Meet should be getting the Top athletes...regardless.
.

ENA,
Good scenarios you laid out. To be clear on my statement, if you re read it I only suggest that for individual events that if 3 or more of the top 18 performers in an event are from the same school, that all those individuals have a chance to compete. I'm not suggesting anything deeper than that. Currently there is the 2 person athlete limit as during outdoor of course.

In no way did I intend my post to suggest the best 18 performers "regardless." Academics, age restrictions, school enrollment, etc are all legitimate qualifications from my point of view. Thanks for pointing out your interpretation of my previous post so I could clarify.
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Old 12-07-15, 10:20 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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To get the best people to the state meet for outdoor xc and to have it more fun for coaching there are a couple of scenarios that have credibility:

(1) time standards for postseason. We all know that colleges have this for NCAA Regionals and many conferences have it for the conference meet.

(2) Another intriguing situation is the number of athletes you are allowed to compete. I always like this scenario the best for track. It actually shows the true strength of a full team. The conference or are our case OHSAA would set a number of 30 or 35 as the # of athletes you are allowed to compete at the district meet. These # of athletes then are allowed to compete in up to 4 events. But the KICKER is you can decide how you put these athletes in the events. For instance, school A may be heavy in distance and they run 5 guys in the 3200 at the district meet. School B is heavy in sprints and they run 8 guys in the 100 meters at the district meet. School C is really good in the throws and has 5 SP and Discus guys.

I personally like #2 because it will fill in many of the gaps of the weak districts. Every year there are very strong districts and regionals in certain events due to the population-socio-economic dispersement of the state of Ohio. The three common dispersements of districts are suburban, rural or urban. With these the quality usually dips in certain events and surges in others. But with the ability to control your events coaches can make it more fun and more quality.
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Old 12-07-15, 11:02 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
To get the best people to the state meet for outdoor xc and to have it more fun for coaching there are a couple of scenarios that have credibility:

(1) time standards for postseason. We all know that colleges have this for NCAA Regionals and many conferences have it for the conference meet.
Time standards will never work for Ohio high school. The NCAA is able to do this as they have mandated that all meets must be fully automatic timed. Hand times are not allowed in any event except the 3000 steeplechase and longer events. This would mean that every meet that is held would have to be fully automatic and schools cannot afford to do that for every meet.
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Old 12-08-15, 10:53 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
Time standards will never work for Ohio high school. The NCAA is able to do this as they have mandated that all meets must be fully automatic timed. Hand times are not allowed in any event except the 3000 steeplechase and longer events. This would mean that every meet that is held would have to be fully automatic and schools cannot afford to do that for every meet.
Teams would have to adjust their schedule. We arent a big school and dont leave our county for track meets and every single one of our invites we attend are FAT. That can be accomplished by any school.

Sure schools have to spend more for meets but some schools shouldnt be running meets anyway.
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  #27  
Old 12-08-15, 02:50 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Keeping Track, Lacrosse and more

It really depends on school size and location. For a lot of districts in the east and southeast the cost of automatic timing could be prohibitive. It would disadvantage any area where most of the facilities are older. For us, going to standards would be a clear advantage. We compete at mostly good venues. We don't have nearly as much inclement weather as they in the NE. This season we are even going to have our home dual/Tri meets auto timed. (Thank you Timing First.) Our invite has been for a long time. (Thank you Finish Timing. The finish line display board is one of the best improvements in a long time.)

I still don't want to do it. One big reason is that it is only occasionally that we are in the hunt for a state title. But we are more often than not in the district title hunt. We haven't won a regional while I have been the head coach but we have been close a couple of times. Even if they kept the district and regional meets (and really, why would you?) they would not be the same if they were not the path to the state meet. I like the directness of competing directly for your chance to advance. I enjoy balancing a lineup to try to get as many kids advancing as possible.

And here is a thought? Is the best athlete the one who ran the fastest time or had the farthest throw during the season? Or the one who does the best on that day? I don't think there is a clear answer to that question. Particularly with athletes competing in vastly different circumstances during the season. So I don't think either method is likely to get all the best athletes to the state meet. Just my two cents. I don't think there is one right or wrong answer here.
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Old 12-08-15, 02:52 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Keeping Track, Lacrosse and more

Just reread a couple earlier posts. For track I don't think one method is intrinsically better than another. For the record, timing standards for CC would be bad in my view. If you think here are too many flat, fast courses now....
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  #29  
Old 12-09-15, 12:28 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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I agree that time standards fir CC would be outlandish. There are not even stardards for CC for college (NCAA, NAIA) or internationally.

Even for Track and Field it would encourage some to chase marks early in the year and allow those who were at their best in April to take spots of those who may be better than them "when it counts" in Late Mate and June. AND for field events many coach would seek meets with favorable winds or Facilities to have "inflated" marks. ie. decline in the HJ approach or SP landing area, head wind in disc, tailwind for PV, or even the surface type.
Also, if a kid were injured, having standards would encourage some to come back too soon so they could qualify or a kid could make the standard and then get injured so you would have a kid looks like a world beater in april, only to limp through at the State meet.

That is why I think that the qualifiers or "at large" qualifiers should have to do it at the end of May. So the District or Regional (which should have to have FAT and quality field facilities) should be the place. The "Top 4, plus 2 more" proposal addresses this along with several other thing that will help at the State Meet. We are still working on compromises for the regional and district levels. The regular season and league meets has to go by what works for the teams and host facility... - timing, events, affordability.
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Old 12-10-15, 08:44 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Time standards make absolutely no sense when everyone starts out at the Districts already. Just because the results at the Districts and Regionals do not play out perfectly and some kids do not advance does not make the next round any less.
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