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  #1  
Old 01-28-16, 08:30 AM
ENA ENA is offline
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Proposal before the OHSAA board of control

Here is a proposal that has been brought before the OHSAA board of control:

State Qualifying procedure
This is taken from another thread but merits discussion, I think.

Let me Start by saying I am old fashioned and am very reluctant to change. I like balanced regionals and the clarity for qualifying the same (4) from each region to the State meet. It is simple, the kids, coaches, parents and fans all can figure it out and know what it takes to "get to state". I have never believed in season qualifying marks allowing one to make it to the big dance. Too many things can happen...injury, early peak, burnout, suspect timing/marks, gale force wind... between a midseason meet and the first week in June.
Also, IMO, Place is more important than time/height/distance.

However, I feel for the 5th place girl who ran 5:05 1600 in a DIII region as that same time would have been 2nd the next week, or the 56' boy shot putter who was 5th at a region, only missing 2nd by 5 inches, and would have been top 6 the next week. ...and I have seen examples of this in every event in every division.

Since our State meet has 9 lanes, and we are using lane 9 for the finals starting this year... why not use lane 9 for the semi-finals too?

Here's the idea...
Continue to qualify the top 4 in each event to the state meet. then allow the top 2 regional marks in each event an "at large" state birth. The will get lane 9 in the running events and make 2 flights of 9 in the throws and LJ.
I know that those regions with a negative wind or bad weather may cry foul, but they are NOT losing anything... top 4 still qualify. And we would see, if indeed, all these 5th places, in loaded regions are really able to make the podium. Why do this if I think it works well now? several reasons:
1. It will increase the quality of competition in some (few) events, but will NOT hurt the quality of any event
2. It will cost nothing to the OHSAA and will make money as the added kids will have parents/fans for admission, concessions and t-shirts
3. It will increase opportunity for kids.... possibility for 50+ kids from each division/sex or 300 more state qualifiers and will NOT decrease the opportunity for ANY kid from what is is now
4. will help the events where several kids drop the event (distance) to focus on a primary event.
5. Will add to the excitement - especially at Regional where the 5th/6th place let's up cause they are not top 4 - they shouldn't, but we've all seen it.
6. It's good for the sport... just for promotion if nothing else
7. I will NOT add any time to the State meet Schedule.
8. With 9 making the final in all events, then 18 entries, just makes more sense IMO
9. No problem with entries as the program, finish lynx and Hy-tec all would accomidate this set up well... It would be easy.


The only complaint would be from a person whose 5th place long jumper or 100 meter athletes was against a 20 mph headwind... but their chance was to be in the top 4. And several times over the past five years, those with a headwind had the best 5th place effort... including this year. Nothing would be taken away from the present system.

As I said... I like the present system and would NOT like it to change.
IN my old fashioned eyes, This set-up Keeps the present system in tact and adds to it. It is not a change, just an improvement - not perfect, but an improvement
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  #2  
Old 01-30-16, 10:33 PM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Well said
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Old 01-31-16, 09:15 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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The major hurdle in this is how to break the ties for HJ, PV. Many times there is going to be 2-3 if not 4 people from regions that have the same 5th place height. We were told friday that there is no way the OHSAA is going to let those tied athletes come and have 20 jumpers.

THe number of kids in an event HAS to be the same
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Old 01-31-16, 12:00 PM
madman madman is offline
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Flip a coin.

It's no different than making a decision based on competition results that occur under vastly different competitive settings.

BTW - if you can't tell, I am not in favor of this proposal at all.
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Old 01-31-16, 02:10 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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Cool

ccrunner609,
looking at past history, there would not be ties "many" times as if you go back to misses at lower heights from tied 5th/6th places I could not find any ties in the PV and only a couple in the HJ over the past 5 years' regional results. And going back on misses is how you break ties in those events. so you would just go back to the misses of the tied athletes from different regionals. Could still have a tie, but unlikely.


Madman,
I actually agree with you that qualifying on best Times or Marks is too varied due to conditions and facilities. That is why the Top 4 Still have to qualify to State. The proposal will not negatively effect this process. I did, however, agree with those who think that, on occasion, a 5th place effort is so good at a loaded region that that kid or relay could contend for a State title. And IF they or the regional are not really that good, then then we will see that too.

I don't think any coach or kid will go into a regional final trying to get 5th place in hopes that it's better than the other regions' 5th places. All will still be shooting for Top 4.
If it helps one kid and hurts no one then who presently qualifies...isn't it worth it?

Flipping a coin has been mentioned for breaking ties, but I guess the OHSAA wants something more full proof.
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Old 01-31-16, 02:13 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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5th place ties would have to be broken in the vertical jumps at the Regionals in every case. You have to have a clear cut, no room for debate, method to select the qualifiers in the PV and HJ or the system is no good and falls apart.

ENA. there were 5th place ties at our Regional and a 6th place tie at another. The other problem I see is that the height progressions were different and that is a huge problem if you have a girl go 10'-0" but misses at 10'-6" for fifth and then at another Region they went 10'-0" to 10'-3" then 10'-6".
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Old 01-31-16, 02:30 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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to add fuel to Madman's thunder,,,
Another thing to consider is if there is a power outage or Lynx goes down, then then the effected running events at that region will not have any "at large" qualifiers as times are FAT.. Another reason why the Top 4 has to be kept.

Again, look at past results.
If we have this in place over the past five years, a few athletes and relays may have been up on the podium and some state-champioship contenders. I don't think very many. Most would have been well back in the State results IMO.
BTW sometimes the best 5th place efforts were in the regional with the worse conditions.... headwind, rain, poor facilities.

If it helps one track kid (who is in shape late May and give a great effort),,,, one track program (to get some PR for thier school/kids),,, and cost nothing and hurts no one who currently qualifies....Then why not do it?

I have to promote ALL Track athletes and the sport and Track and Field. I think it is equal to (or better than) any other HS sport out there.

Last edited by ENA; 01-31-16 at 02:46 PM..
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Old 01-31-16, 02:46 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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Psycho, there has been many ties withing a region, just not from different regions. Sometimes due to how that region progresses, but history does not indicate what progression is better. Sometimes the region that goes up in the PV by 4" would have gone and sometimes the one that went up 3". What way is better?

In the original proposal it was said that each region would have to break ties as for 5th/6th as they currently do for 4th/5th. usually a jump off. That was no problem for those who know the event... I know you know what I mean. The current problem is ties between different regions. That is what the district board is trying to solve because, god forbid, you have 4 guys who tied at 14' in the pole vault with the exact same misses all get 5th at different regionals.
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Old 01-31-16, 07:20 PM
long time coach long time coach is offline
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If there is a tie in the high jump/pole vault - Maybe they can go back to the District and the athlete with the best performance (height) can break the tie. Extra athletes at the State will increase the $$ as extra fans will attend.
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Old 01-31-16, 07:32 PM
madman madman is offline
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The purpose of the State Championship meet is not to get as many people as possible to participate. More =/= Better

The state tournament begins with the district championship. Everyone gets two participants per event. You earn your way based on heads-up performance with the exception of advancements based on FAT times from prelims to finals at each site. There is no lottery, no coin flip, etc. Finish in the top 4 at each level and advance to the next round of the tournament.

I fundamentally disagree that any additional athlete we can get to the state championship is a benefit, so the unfairness of allowing some to advance who had clear competitive advantages isn't warranted or desired.
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Old 01-31-16, 08:10 PM
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Do you remember when only 6 got on the podium. Or when cross country had separate individual races... Adding 2 more to the State Track & Field Championships and 5 teams and 20 athletes from the Regionals for Cross Country will not hurt the Championships. It will help balance the qualifiers from competitive Regionals and increase the money the OHSAA will make.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-16, 08:40 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madman View Post
The purpose of the State Championship meet is not to get as many people as possible to participate. More =/= Better

The state tournament begins with the district championship. Everyone gets two participants per event. You earn your way based on heads-up performance with the exception of advancements based on FAT times from prelims to finals at each site. There is no lottery, no coin flip, etc. Finish in the top 4 at each level and advance to the next round of the tournament.

I fundamentally disagree that any additional athlete we can get to the state championship is a benefit, so the unfairness of allowing some to advance who had clear competitive advantages isn't warranted or desired.
Disagree on all points. Ohio ranks 47th of 50 state on the % of HS athletes that get to their state meet in track. I bet it's just as bad in CC. Expanding divisions and the CHANCE to go to state will only deepen Ohio pool of talent
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Old 02-02-16, 02:02 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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I actually agree with madman on some points.

The purpose of the State Meet is NOT to get as many people possible to participate. That is true.
BUT what IS the purpose of the State Meet?

I think the proven purpose of the State meet is:
1. To get representation from each region to the State tourney. This is true for every sport that the OHSAA sponsors.
2. To crown a "State Champion" (team and Individual)
3. To name "All-Ohio" representatives or academic All-ohio" usually through the sport or coaches' association.
4. To provide equitable (fair) opportunities to Student-athletes
5. to advance/ reward those teams and/or individuals who perform at a high level at the end of their season.

others may think the following is the Purpose of the State Meet...I do not,
1. to make more money.... or at least to not lose money
2. To promote the sport/athletes to the media, community, schools, etc.
3. Compete with other states in terms of competition, meet management, college recruitment, etc.
4. To have the "best" in each event compete against each other.
5. a few other purposes.

The proposal does NOT allow for a "coin flip" or lottery, but a "high-quality" mark at a time that is "on the day" when the athlete or relay needed to be "on". If you look at history, you will see that every regional would have representation.
And, although having random additional qualifiers would NOT benefit the State Meet, IF YOU LOOK AT HISTORY, Having additional quality qualifiers, would be a benefit in terms of depth, compeitition and quality marks.
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Old 02-02-16, 09:20 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I'm not going to pooh pooh the proposal, but I do have things that I do not like about it.

Live results would have to be very precisely coordinated between the four Regional meets. They could not allow results to be posted until all of the same events are completed. This would also force each Regional to have to have the exact same time schedule and order of events. The boys shot could not be held at 3 of the Regions on Thursday and at the 4th on Saturday.

I would think that in the vertical jumps, the height progressions would have to be exactly the same at each Regional up until there are 4 clear qualifiers through.

I don't like that 5's or even a 6th can get through to the state, but the same is not the case from Districts to Regionals.

I don't like that 4 kids did their job and eliminated other competitors only to have 2 get be un-eliminated.

Weather conditions at the sites could play a huge roll. Even just pits that jump better or tracks that run faster will now make a big difference. I've been to a Regional site that had a long jump pit that just jumped terrible. Nothing wrong with the facility, it just jumped bad year after year. None of that matters when it is strictly place.

All that said, I do not have a better proposal other than a 4th division. I hate that we qualify prelims to finals strictly on times. Not sure if it's happened, but the fact that someone can win their section and not qualify through goes against my upbringing. I was one of those athletes that could only run a 4:30 1600m if there was a 4:31 in the same race, but the kid that ran a 4:20 had to settle for second place cuz I was going to run a 4:19. I was like that in every event I did.

I would most likely vote in favor of the proposal because it does not really take anything away from anyone.
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Old 02-02-16, 09:32 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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to me the 5th place finisher that get the at large qualifier is the one that is closet to 4th.
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Old 02-03-16, 08:35 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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cc609....NOOOO. We had a year where our #5 was way behind the top 4 in a race, but her time would have put her in the top 2 or 3 at all the other Regionals. We went 1,2,3,4 at the state meet. While I'll argue that she needed to be top 4 at the Regional, she clearly should make it before someone that ran a closer 5th in a slower race. This would be the one time where time is more important than place.
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Old 02-03-16, 12:54 PM
silverfish9 silverfish9 is offline
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ccrunner609 "The major hurdle in this is how to break the ties for HJ, PV. Many times there is going to be 2-3 if not 4 people from regions that have the same 5th place height. We were told friday that there is no way the OHSAA is going to let those tied athletes come and have 20 jumpers."

In that instance why wouldn't you just revert back to the top 4 from each region? If 18/19 are tied, then you just allow 17, if 17/19 are tied we revert back to current 4 from each region allowed.
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Old 02-03-16, 08:56 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Because the whole thing depends on every event having the same number of qualifiers. They have to break all ties through 6th place at each regional. If not, and you take more kids or less kids in the PV or HJ, then team titles could be affected and it's just not fair to have events that don't qualify the same to the state meet.
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Old 02-03-16, 09:25 PM
Altor Altor is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Because the whole thing depends on every event having the same number of qualifiers. They have to break all ties through 6th place at each regional. If not, and you take more kids or less kids in the PV or HJ, then team titles could be affected and it's just not fair to have events that don't qualify the same to the state meet.
It still doesn't work.

Fifth place at all four regionals is the same height and all four have no misses. How do you propose to break this tie?
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Old 02-03-16, 09:55 PM
Wadz06 Wadz06 is offline
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Just invite everyone and hand out trophies to all. You have to perform on that day, in those conditions and place in top 4, PERIOD! I could care less if it was a hurricane, blizzard or heatwave. Life doesn't care those are the rules, live with it!
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Old 02-03-16, 10:04 PM
Wadz06 Wadz06 is offline
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Why does the schools even put up with OSHAA? They are not part of our school system, they are not public servants, state schools should just boycott them and devise their own system which benefits the kids and schools. OHSAA is just as crooked as any any unchecked group in power.
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Old 02-04-16, 07:17 AM
Shoemaker_Levy Shoemaker_Levy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENA View Post
And, although having random additional qualifiers would NOT benefit the State Meet, IF YOU LOOK AT HISTORY, Having additional quality qualifiers, would be a benefit in terms of depth, compeitition and quality marks.
Being fairly new to Ohio, I'm not sure if my opinion carries much weight, but I would be in favor of having more individuals qualify for states. I agree with other posters that using 5th or 6th place regional performances can be difficult.

In Virginia, you can qualify based on your performance during the regular season or the post-season. The VHSL averages the time/height/distance that earns an athlete All-State honors from the previous five meets, and if an athlete betters that mark at an invitational, districts, or regionals, they earn a spot at the state meet. This helps with competitive balance between regions and gives individuals who would be competitive at the state meet, a chance to earn their way to Columbus.

Something to chew on anyway.
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Old 02-04-16, 09:06 AM
madman madman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadz06 View Post
Why does the schools even put up with OSHAA? They are not part of our school system, they are not public servants, state schools should just boycott them and devise their own system which benefits the kids and schools. OHSAA is just as crooked as any any unchecked group in power.
Schools choose to join the OHSAA or not, but if you want to compete in OHSAA events, then you must be a member.

As long as people are involved, there will always be problems. Creating another group isn't going to fix that.
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Old 02-04-16, 10:23 AM
ENA ENA is offline
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This is the reason(s) for this proposal. IThis came from 3 Primary events.
Number 1.
Over the past 15 years or so, many coaches and fans approached me about Ohio's State meet and how to improve it. there were many opinions and ideas. .As I was elected to Represent my district in the OATCCC I welcomed imput about Issues with our sports
Many were based on what other State's do; some were based on what Ohio had done in the past.
some were on how to use technology better, some was to increase participation, some were to increase competitiveness, Some were to make (more) money, Some were to increase opportunities of kids, schools, coaches and/or fans.
I did not agree with most of them. Like Psycho, Madman and some others, I am a little "old school" and think we have the best State Meet around... But I listened. Playing devils advocate in most cases still left me with the belief that many of the concerns were legit. To REPRESENT Their ideas properly, I felt compelled to work on ways address some concerns. I had to leave my personal agendas out of it even though most of the concerns were based on other's agendas. So, If It helps ONE kid or school from the other side of the State to bring the sport into the limelight, of just have some more pride AND does not hurt any other school or disrupt what currently is good about our sport Then, to me, it is a "no brainer"

#2
In the late 90's and early 2000's I had two younger cousins from different States who qualified to their State meet and now have memories that they will carry with them forever. A girl cousin from WVa (Doddridge county School) was "ALL-State" in the 4 x 200 and the shuttle hurdles (yes, the Shuttles are contested at their state meet), With times that kids that I coached ran that some year and did not get the joy of competing at the State meet.
Also, a boy cousin, qualified to the Illinois State Meet (Freeburg High School) in the 800 and 4 x 800 by running a certain standard. there were about 30 teams that made the State Meet in the 4 x 800 and almost that many in the 800. Again, our 4 x 800 rean alot faster and had 3 faster 800 runners who did not get to State in Ohio. Now, I did not complain that the standard was "to high" in Ohio in the 800, 4 x 8, or 4 x 200 or that the Shuttles were not offered by the OHSAA. I did not complain that things were "too easy" in those states...But, I would also not complain if Kids at my school would have been State qualifiers for their efforts.

#3
With the State Indoor meet qualifying the top 16 (now 18) marks in each event, many think that it is "better" than the outdoor meet in many ways. I DO NOT think this! But, I can see how some would think this. Afterall:
-it is not what region you come from as all qualifiers could come from 9 schools in the same county.
-whoever is the fastest (farthest, highest) will make it
-it is a "true" State Championship
(Although some say that it would be better if we allow more that 2 from a school or allow some type of conversion from a 200-meter track to a 300 meter)
-The OATCCC makes some money and manage the meet better thatn the OHSAA does the outdoor meet.

These are the main reasons for the proposal. There are a few other aspects that it helps.... Remember, It is a COMPROMISE that helps with many concerns and does not disrupt the current system. The time schedule is not changed and the top 4 from format is the same.
In fact, it goes in line with a 2-day meet that will include 4 divisions at jesse Owens track. I will put that schedule on here in the next week or so.

Those who say "why not just let everyone in and give them a ribbon" must not have read or understands the proposal.
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Old 02-05-16, 10:47 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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ENA, what is the snag with the proposal? Is it the PV/HJ issue? How do we solve that problem or any of the other objections?
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Old 02-05-16, 02:57 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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According to "the powers that be", the board of control and the OHSAA really like the proposal but the verticle jumps (HJ/PV) are the problem. Even if you break all ties through 6th place by rule (misses, jumpoff as needed) you could have all 5th places be exact ties. Note: over the past 5 years, this did not happen in the PV and may not have happened in the HJ, I just don't know how many misses at lower heights came from different regionals and jump-off were only done for 4th place ties. I am a history guy, and if you look at the past, you will see that most of the time the best two non-qualifying efforts at the regionals would not make the final or score at State (with the same mark as regionals). However, i had to concede that every year, in EVERY division, there would be a couple efforts that would impact the state meet and on occasion could even WIN. Look at the 4th place regional efforts that won the next week.
-I was told that if one event qualifies 18 spots, then ONLY 18 spots will be for every event.
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Old 02-05-16, 03:21 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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According to "the powers that be", the board of control and the OHSAA really like the proposal but the verticle jumps (HJ/PV) are the problem. Even if you break all ties through 6th place by rule (misses, jumpoff as needed) you could have all 5th places be exact ties. Note: over the past 5 years, this did not happen in the PV and may not have happened in the HJ, I just don't know how many misses at lower heights came from different regionals and jump-off were only done for 4th place ties. I am a history guy, and if you look at the past, you will see that most of the time the best two non-qualifying efforts at the regionals would not make the final or score at State (with the same mark as regionals). However, i had to concede that every year, in EVERY division, there would be a couple efforts that would impact the state meet and on occasion could even WIN. Look at the 4th place regional efforts that won the next week.
-I was told that if one event qualifies 18 spots, then ONLY 18 spots will be for every event.
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Old 02-05-16, 03:23 PM
ENA ENA is offline
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BTW - some on the OATCCC are working on a "tie-breaker" system for the HJ/PV which includes:
1. All regions going up by the same increments (There should be no need in starting at the same height as high level jumpers will pass, then start at their chosen mark either way)
2. Going back to misses at all regions
3. Heights of the top 4..... and about 3 other things.
- they ARE working on it and are alot smarter than me.

Also, no need on Starting at the Exact same time as All Athletes and coaches will be competing with their regional....and will have to get "top 4". If a ' coach looks at the other three results and tells their kid "All you have to do is vault 13" 6" to get the best 5th place"...That would put that kid at a disadvantage IMO as now they are going for a mark. Definately not an advantage as they know not what the top 6 in his region will do. Coaches must still have to preach "TOP 4"

Interestingly, If the field events were on the metric system like track events were, there would probably be no worries with ties, but the general public and many others (including me)would not have a clue
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Old 02-07-16, 01:49 AM
Altor Altor is online now
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Originally Posted by ENA View Post
Interestingly, If the field events were on the metric system like track events were, there would probably be no worries with ties, but the general public and many others (including me)would not have a clue
How can this be true? A centimeter is less precise than a 1/4 inch. Ties would be more likely (except in the discus, 2cm < 1 inch).
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Old 02-08-16, 08:20 AM
ENA ENA is offline
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Altor,
Ties may be more likely in the same Region, but since the top group would be more likely to use passes to optimize their jumps within their region, ties based off of misses and jumping at the heights from different regions would be less likey. And ties from the same region would be broken through the normal procedure. (jump off/misses).

Again, NO ONE would be jumping for 5th place in a region.
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