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  #1  
Old 11-26-17, 02:06 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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7 Divisions really ?

Once again it is State Championship week. Marion Local in D-6 has not been seriously challenged yet in the play-offs ( that will change this week). Minster a team with 4 losses had one close game with Crestview otherwise next closet game was 20-0. Shouldn't it be very difficult to make it to a State title game unless you have a powerhouse football team. Believe 5 divisions are more than enough for football. I know that would make it tough on small schools but play-offs should be more challenging like it is in basketball.
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  #2  
Old 11-26-17, 02:21 PM
Msfootball Msfootball is offline
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I agree that 7 divisions is watered down. Take Marion Local in 2014 for example. The D7 playoffs were a forgone conclusion. Marion Local had crushed D5 Coldwater who crushed Canton Central in the Finals. It almost felt like Marion Local got cheated out of a real chance to test how good they could be. Would be nice to see 5 divisions again. Six maximum
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  #3  
Old 11-26-17, 02:28 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msfootball View Post
I agree that 7 divisions is watered down. Take Marion Local in 2014 for example. The D7 playoffs were a forgone conclusion. Marion Local had crushed D5 Coldwater who crushed Canton Central in the Finals. It almost felt like Marion Local got cheated out of a real chance to test how good they could be. Would be nice to see 5 divisions again. Six maximum
Trust me I am very appreciative of what ML and other small schools have accomplished with 6 and 7 divisions. However I definitely believe if their were 5 divisions this season ML and Kirtland would be playing for the D-5 title this week.
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Old 11-26-17, 02:30 PM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msfootball View Post
I agree that 7 divisions is watered down. Take Marion Local in 2014 for example. The D7 playoffs were a forgone conclusion. Marion Local had crushed D5 Coldwater who crushed Canton Central in the Finals. It almost felt like Marion Local got cheated out of a real chance to test how good they could be. Would be nice to see 5 divisions again. Six maximum
You can't base a need for changes on Marion Local. They beat Chaminade Julienne by 28 in week 1....CJ is D3 and made it to week 13 before losing to Trotwood by 30. Marion Local & Kirtland aren't typical D6 teams. Heck, I read somewhere that Marion Local dresses 85 guys. You can't punish all of D6 because of a couple powerhouses
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  #5  
Old 11-26-17, 02:55 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by tcgobucks View Post
You can't base a need for changes on Marion Local. They beat Chaminade Julienne by 28 in week 1....CJ is D3 and made it to week 13 before losing to Trotwood by 30. Marion Local & Kirtland aren't typical D6 teams. Heck, I read somewhere that Marion Local dresses 85 guys. You can't punish all of D6 because of a couple powerhouses
It is not just ML, Coldwater has also steamrolled in the play-offs and the MAC has dominated NW Ohio, it should be more competitive IMO.
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  #6  
Old 11-26-17, 03:50 PM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
It is not just ML, Coldwater has also steamrolled in the play-offs and the MAC has dominated NW Ohio, it should be more competitive IMO.
It's not like they are dominating because the rest of NW Ohio is bad...it's because the MAC are just that good. They would dominate no matter what region they are in, just like it happens once the playoffs get started. How about taking the MAC schools and moving them around the state. Let's put Coldwater in the far NW corner, we'll leave Marion Local in the Southwest, put Minster in the Southeast....and put them in the same division with Kirtland. Those 4 would make it to the Final 4 every year and nobody else would get to play. the MAC had 5 teams in the playoffs in 3 divisions. Heck, if the MAC teams were spread apart, they might get the entire league into the postseason
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  #7  
Old 11-27-17, 06:42 AM
Down The Road Down The Road is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msfootball View Post
I agree that 7 divisions is watered down. Take Marion Local in 2014 for example. The D7 playoffs were a forgone conclusion. Marion Local had crushed D5 Coldwater who crushed Canton Central in the Finals. It almost felt like Marion Local got cheated out of a real chance to test how good they could be. Would be nice to see 5 divisions again. Six maximum
It's too bad those teams that feel like they are not getting challenged could not have the opportunity to play up a division or 2 if they chose to. That would also let teams and programs in their region that are left every year to wonder what it would be like with out at MAC or perennial powerhouse in the region get a feel for the next level and some new blood in the state semi's. If there was a way to do it that would not get manipulated I think sorting teams by roster size in the 3 smallest divisions would create a truly competitive playing field. I do realize the pitfalls of that, but in a perfect world......
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  #8  
Old 11-27-17, 07:10 AM
Rangerfan Rangerfan is offline
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Originally Posted by Down The Road View Post
It's too bad those teams that feel like they are not getting challenged could not have the opportunity to play up a division or 2 if they chose to. That would also let teams and programs in their region that are left every year to wonder what it would be like with out at MAC or perennial powerhouse in the region get a feel for the next level and some new blood in the state semi's. If there was a way to do it that would not get manipulated I think sorting teams by roster size in the 3 smallest divisions would create a truly competitive playing field. I do realize the pitfalls of that, but in a perfect world......
Thinking that schools would choose to play up a division to challenge themselves is a fantasy. That would be like Amazon saying, "This business is getting too easy. I think we'll raise what we pay to our suppliers to make it more challenging."

What you might see is schools moving up if they felt the higher division is easier (such as schools fleeing division six to avoid Marion Local).
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  #9  
Old 11-27-17, 07:35 AM
Down The Road Down The Road is offline
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Originally Posted by Rangerfan View Post
Thinking that schools would choose to play up a division to challenge themselves is a fantasy. That would be like Amazon saying, "This business is getting too easy. I think we'll raise what we pay to our suppliers to make it more challenging."

What you might see is schools moving up if they felt the higher division is easier (such as schools fleeing division six to avoid Marion Local).
I don't disagree, but I just wanted to throw out an option for those that are disappointed with the lack of competition .
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  #10  
Old 11-27-17, 09:38 AM
Mikefln Mikefln is offline
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Originally Posted by Rangerfan View Post
Thinking that schools would choose to play up a division to challenge themselves is a fantasy. That would be like Amazon saying, "This business is getting too easy. I think we'll raise what we pay to our suppliers to make it more challenging."

What you might see is schools moving up if they felt the higher division is easier (such as schools fleeing division six to avoid Marion Local).
In PA it works both ways. Aliquppia would be 1A based on enrollment which is the smallest division but they choose to play up to 3A for better competition as they would win the statetitle almost every year in A, hell they almost do that anyways in 3A.

In district 10 a group of schools in 4A moved up to 5A to avoid playing Erie Cathedral Prep. They knew they would never advance in the state playoffs at 5A but they just wanted to compete for the district title as ECP only lost 1 in the past decade.
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  #11  
Old 11-28-17, 09:19 AM
joelmama joelmama is offline
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One option would be to allow schools to play "up" if they choose to. Marion Local could probably still make to the title game in D4 or D3 let them choose before the season starts to play there. Maybe Kirtland would do move up to D4 so they could have a regional battle with Perry for instance. Nobody would be forced to but a team could flex their muscles for a year if they wish.
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  #12  
Old 11-28-17, 09:24 AM
Con_Alma Con_Alma is offline
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Originally Posted by joelmama View Post
One option would be to allow schools to play "up" if they choose to. Marion Local could probably still make to the title game in D4 or D3 let them choose before the season starts to play there. Maybe Kirtland would do move up to D4 so they could have a regional battle with Perry for instance. Nobody would be forced to but a team could flex their muscles for a year if they wish.

The OHSAA allows this in wrestling. One team has chosen to do so this year.
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  #13  
Old 11-28-17, 09:33 AM
Starkbuck Starkbuck is offline
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Why eliminate any divisions? Why not institute a rule that if a team wins their division one year, they are given the choice to move up or stay in their division the following year. If they win a second year in a row then they are required to move up one division the following year and so on. This would eliminate any sort of competitive imbalance in the current format.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-17, 11:45 AM
Rangerfan Rangerfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkbuck View Post
Why eliminate any divisions? Why not institute a rule that if a team wins their division one year, they are given the choice to move up or stay in their division the following year. If they win a second year in a row then they are required to move up one division the following year and so on. This would eliminate any sort of competitive imbalance in the current format.
First, if a teams wins a title, why would they voluntarily move up? Do they feel better if they win D4 instead of D5? Or would the coach/AD get ripped if next year the team is not quite as good and moving up denied their kids the opportunity to participate in the playoffs?

Second, the mandatory moving up was already voted down by member schools. Why? What if you have a couple of stud players lead you to a title their junior and senior years? Why should the players in future years have to pay for the success of now graduated players?

Last edited by Rangerfan; 11-28-17 at 03:12 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-27-17, 09:41 AM
big medicine big medicine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Down The Road View Post
It's too bad those teams that feel like they are not getting challenged could not have the opportunity to play up a division or 2 if they chose to. That would also let teams and programs in their region that are left every year to wonder what it would be like with out at MAC or perennial powerhouse in the region get a feel for the next level and some new blood in the state semi's. If there was a way to do it that would not get manipulated I think sorting teams by roster size in the 3 smallest divisions would create a truly competitive playing field. I do realize the pitfalls of that, but in a perfect world......

So in a system where it was felt needed to create a seventh division because schools with 600 boys walking the halls couldn't talk enough guys into going out for football to be competitive with bigger schools, you propose to handicap schools with say 150 boys because 85 of them went out for football ?

But I could see this gaining traction in the future, probably along side some sort of success penalties. After kicking private schools out, the focus will next fall on the successful public programs. Instead of studying, emulating, and out working them, it will be decided that it would be much easier to just legislate some sort of handicapping system, bumping them up divisions until they become one of the masses, damn site easier way to level the playing field by some people's thinking.

As to some feeling there is a lack of competition in the playoffs, I don't know what the answer is there. But one thing I have noticed is how hard it is for many of the good programs to schedule out of conference games. What if a system was devised that next years first game, (or two, three, years down the road for logistical purposes) were determined by playoff advancement. Say if you go out in week 11, you open with a team that also lost week 11 in your region,( if not a league mate and already on the schedule) and so on. Say you go all the way and win state, you open with the runner up of the division up ( again providing they are not a league mate and already on the schedule).
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  #16  
Old 11-26-17, 02:31 PM
ctowner ctowner is offline
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Agree that 7 divisions is too many. Like six. Five? Think about how many fewer titles MAC would have if only five divisions. IMO.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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  #17  
Old 11-26-17, 02:34 PM
Vinegar Vinegar is offline
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You can say watered down....or, you can say "same number of teams" in each Division. (Except DI)

Take your 1 team out of D6 or D7 and do you feel the same way?
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  #18  
Old 11-26-17, 02:38 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by ctowner View Post
Agree that 7 divisions is too many. Like six. Five? Think about how many fewer titles MAC would have if only five divisions. IMO.

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True MAC would have fewer Championships but play-offs games would be much more competitive.
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  #19  
Old 11-26-17, 02:48 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Tough to argue that the football playoffs in Ohio are "watered down" when football is the only sport in Ohio high school sports in which all team DON'T make the playoffs....
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  #20  
Old 11-26-17, 02:52 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is online now
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Should be two three divisions
AAA Mentor vs PC
AA Trotwood vs Steubenville
A Marion Local vs Kirtland
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  #21  
Old 11-26-17, 02:56 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
Should be two three divisions
AAA Mentor vs PC
AA Trotwood vs Steubenville
A Marion Local vs Kirtland
I think 4 like basketball. Make that 5.
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  #22  
Old 11-26-17, 02:58 PM
big medicine big medicine is offline
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One thing to remember about too many watered down divisions, it was not the small schools calling for increasing divisions. It was the " small " DI schools saying they could not compete with the big boys.
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Old 11-26-17, 03:34 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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One thing to remember about too many watered down divisions, it was not the small schools calling for increasing divisions. It was the " small " DI schools saying they could not compete with the big boys.
Because the difference between the biggest D1 and smallest Di was 3x the enrollment. 3x. How many other divisions can say the same?
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Old 11-26-17, 04:02 PM
Rangerfan Rangerfan is offline
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Originally Posted by lambeau fields View Post
because the difference between the biggest d1 and smallest di was 3x the enrollment. 3x. How many other divisions can say the same?
d7
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  #25  
Old 11-27-17, 10:27 AM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
Because the difference between the biggest D1 and smallest Di was 3x the enrollment. 3x. How many other divisions can say the same?
There were considerable disparities enrollment wise on the other end of the spectrum, too. Compare Marion Local to say... Portsmouth Notre Dame? That’s a 3x enrollment disparity most years.
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  #26  
Old 12-16-17, 07:47 PM
raising4daughters raising4daughters is offline
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Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
Because the difference between the biggest D1 and smallest Di was 3x the enrollment. 3x. How many other divisions can say the same?
Bingo. The simple answer is to have a roughly fixed % difference between the largest and smallest schools in a division. Somewhere around 40-50% makes sense. That way, with Ignatius and X at roughly 1,200 boys, the smallest D1 would have 800-900. My town's school was a small D1 who had to go up against Ignatius who had nearly twice the enrollment.

The biggest paradigm to get over is the fixation on having the same number of schools in a division. Dumb. Population isn't distributed evenly, so why should division sizes.

There are more small schools, so have 5 divisions with a couple hundred in D5 but only 20-30 in D1.
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  #27  
Old 11-26-17, 04:09 PM
Jaws31 Jaws31 is offline
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It's really easy for those who have nothing to do with the game to say that there are too many divisions. 7 divisions hurts noone and quite frankly doesn't water down anything. As populations in certain areas of tge state decline you need the 2 smaller divisions in order for those communities to have something to play for. And before everyone starts with the "D7 doesn't mean anything", stop. Go tell the players, coaches, families and communities of Minster and Cuyahoga Heights that their game is meaningless. Even D6 for that matter.
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  #28  
Old 11-26-17, 04:29 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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I live in a mostly rural area. Over the last 20+ years area schools have fluctuated between D4, 5, 6 and 7, with one school closing and another being reduced to 8-man this year. Quite frankly, D1, 2 and for the most part D3 are just other divisions in the state. Couldn't care less about them for the most part.
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  #29  
Old 11-26-17, 04:49 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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7 Divisions is a complete joke. Let's just make it 21 divisions. What's the difference?
Division 7 champ...right...
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  #30  
Old 11-26-17, 05:21 PM
dograt dograt is offline
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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
7 Divisions is a complete joke. Let's just make it 21 divisions. What's the difference?
Division 7 champ...right...
I agree! and 14 weightclasses in wrestling is way too many. Let's just have 3 wrestling champions! And why do track runners have all those damn distances anyway...100,200,400,800,mile,2mile...blah, blah, blah. You're either fast or slow. Just a 100 and a mile should do it. Don't even get me started on swimming different distances AND strokes!
Bah humbug! I'm against anything that gives more kids success!
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