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  #31  
Old 06-13-18, 07:04 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ts1960 View Post
Thompson is Klay.
Draymond is definitely not a well above average offensive player, he has only avg 9.3 ppg in his career.
Draymond does a pretty dam good job of running the offense when he's a point forward and he is one of the leading assist guys on the team. His 9.3 ppg avg doesn't really tell the whole story.
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  #32  
Old 06-13-18, 07:07 AM
joesports joesports is offline
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While I don’t like it ... what I call the AAU mentality ... joining up with other stars to form a ‘super team’ ... is the new norm in today’s NBA ... it is only going to get worse ... so get use to it.
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  #33  
Old 06-13-18, 07:23 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Joe, super teams have been a thing since the inception of the NBA. Forcing your way to a team to form a super team has been around since Lew Alcindor. I have no idea why people try to act like super teams is a recent phenomena.

Edit: eh, probably wrong on the Alcindor bit. I don't think the Lakers were all that great that year. Nevertheless, super teams and forcing your way to a different team has been around for decades.

Last edited by Taco MacArthur; 06-13-18 at 07:43 AM..
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  #34  
Old 06-13-18, 07:33 AM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Joe, super teams have been a thing since the inception of the NBA. Forcing your way to a team to form a super team has been around since Lew Alcindor. I have no idea why people try to act like super teams is a recent phenomena.
Itís the norm now ... it was not then ... other than Alcindor ... name another from 1975 to 2005?
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  #35  
Old 06-13-18, 07:56 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
Itís the norm now ... it was not then ... other than Alcindor ... name another from 1975 to 2005?
off the top of my head, Kobe Bryant refused to play for Charlotte and forced them to trade him. Never been confirmed but it's rumored Shaq demanded a trade out of LA. Chris Webber forced a trade to Washington. Wilt demanded to be traded to the Lakers.
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  #36  
Old 06-13-18, 08:10 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Some call it the b1tch move, I call it smart. Why wouldnt you position yourself, in any endeavour, to give yourself the best possible chance of success?
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  #37  
Old 06-13-18, 11:11 AM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
off the top of my head, Kobe Bryant refused to play for Charlotte and forced them to trade him. Never been confirmed but it's rumored Shaq demanded a trade out of LA. Chris Webber forced a trade to Washington. Wilt demanded to be traded to the Lakers.
Sorry, but you are really reaching ... that these are the same thing as players getting together to form super teams ... yes, players have demanded trades before, but it was to leave a place ... Alcindor wanted out of Milwaukee, gave them something like 5 places he wanted traded to ... Shaq was traded because Kobe wanted him gone, Weber and Washington super team ... really? None of these are even close to what is going on now ... but none of that really matters, I liked the old way better, but I am not a hater for these guys teaming up ... I am smart enough to know this is the new reality ... if/when LeBron leaves ... I am going to say thank you, best of luck ... I just want something in return.
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  #38  
Old 06-13-18, 11:25 AM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Joe, super teams have been a thing since the inception of the NBA. Forcing your way to a team to form a super team has been around since Lew Alcindor. I have no idea why people try to act like super teams is a recent phenomena.

Edit: eh, probably wrong on the Alcindor bit. I don't think the Lakers were all that great that year. Nevertheless, super teams and forcing your way to a different team has been around for decades.
not on this level. Boston was a dynasty in the 60's. Jerry West and Wilt always got beat by them. They joined forces at the end of their careers and formed the greatest NBA team ever. Kareem actually beat that Lakers team in the finals. Kareem already a champ then joined the Lakers. The lakers weren't that good when Kareem came.
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  #39  
Old 06-13-18, 11:35 AM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
Some call it the b1tch move, I call it smart. Why wouldnt you position yourself, in any endeavour, to give yourself the best possible chance of success?
I get the mentality ... If I canít beat them join them ... I just liked the old mentality of, if I canít beat them, work harder so I can beat them the next time more ... I liked that when the Pistons (bad boys) couldnít get past the Celtics ... instead of Isaiah Thomas leaving & pairing up with other superstars he stayed and Detroit just kept getting better until they could win a championship ... I liked that when Michael Jordanís Bulls could not beat the Pistons, he stayed and Bulls just got better until they could beat them ... I know the only difference was the teams were more in control and now the players have taken control ... I just think it was more entertaining seeing teams make progress so they could overtake the previous champions ... now it seems players want more instant success and are less willing to work their way up ... I am not saying there is anything wrong with the new mentality ... just I liked the old way better.
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  #40  
Old 06-13-18, 11:57 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
Sorry, but you are really reaching ... that these are the same thing as players getting together to form super teams ... yes, players have demanded trades before, but it was to leave a place ... Alcindor wanted out of Milwaukee, gave them something like 5 places he wanted traded to ... Shaq was traded because Kobe wanted him gone, Weber and Washington super team ... really? None of these are even close to what is going on now ... but none of that really matters, I liked the old way better, but I am not a hater for these guys teaming up ... I am smart enough to know this is the new reality ... if/when LeBron leaves ... I am going to say thank you, best of luck ... I just want something in return.
Yeah, already noted the Alcindor bit. Shaq requested/demanded a trade because the Lakers wanted him to take less money and Shaq didn't like the direction the team was going, he wasn't traded because Kobe wanted him gone. Not a super team but Webber joined up with Juwan Howard and those two were two great young pieces. Washington didn't put anything around them. But you're right. I shouldn't have players have always forced trades to form super teams. I should have said players have always forced trades.

Last edited by Taco MacArthur; 06-13-18 at 12:33 PM..
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  #41  
Old 06-13-18, 12:52 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
Some call it the b1tch move, I call it smart. Why wouldnt you position yourself, in any endeavour, to give yourself the best possible chance of success?
True. He's the one laughing to the bank with 2 NBA Championships and 2 Finals MVPs. Looks like he made the right choice, however you want to classify the move.
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  #42  
Old 06-13-18, 12:57 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Malone and Payton joining up with Shaq and Kobe in LA was a ring-chasing move that didn't pan out. Boston's moves to get Ray Allen and KG to join Pierce was another - though Ray and KG came from the West so it wasn't joining a rival. The first big domino in the superteam race was LeBron and Bosh leaving their respective teams as the best player on each team and joining Wade a conference rival team.
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  #43  
Old 06-13-18, 03:18 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
True, it is worse because the Cavs team he left was no where near as good as OKC, and the Boston big 3 wasn't on the level of Golden State's at that point in their careers.
I get your point but there was no Warriors dynasty when Lebron did what he did. Three All Stars got on the phone and decided to go to Miami to win titles.
They also added some nice complimentary players to them.
When Lebron, Wade and Bosh decided to form a super team it was looked at in very similar terms to the competition at the time. Curry got on the phone with Durant and did the same thing. Let's go win some titles.
Lebron got the ball rolling and the Warriors took it up a notch.
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  #44  
Old 06-13-18, 03:21 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
Malone and Payton joining up with Shaq and Kobe in LA was a ring-chasing move that didn't pan out. Boston's moves to get Ray Allen and KG to join Pierce was another - though Ray and KG came from the West so it wasn't joining a rival. The first big domino in the superteam race was LeBron and Bosh leaving their respective teams as the best player on each team and joining Wade a conference rival team.
Sure it was. Lebron was in the Catbird seat and helped Miami construct a championship program,
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  #45  
Old 06-14-18, 04:59 AM
Levi Levi is offline
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Durant on the Cavs instead of LeBron would have folded like a cheap tent after losing game 1 against Indiana.

Easy for Durant to stick out when he plays with 2 of the greatest shooters of all time and a lot of other good players.

Durant going from a 55 win OKC team to a record setting 73 win GS team is a bit different than LeBron going from a 61 win Cavs team to a 47 win Miami team. Also LeBron didn't choke a 3-1 lead against Miami the year before.

Apples and Oranges...
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  #46  
Old 06-14-18, 08:27 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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The general idea is the same - let's team up to win Championships. You can talk apples and oranges all day, those moves were made for the exact same reason.
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  #47  
Old 06-14-18, 10:37 AM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post

Durant going from a 55 win OKC team to a record setting 73 win GS team is a bit different than LeBron going from a 61 win Cavs team to a 47 win Miami team. Also LeBron didn't choke a 3-1 lead against Miami the year before.

Apples and Oranges...
So Lebron, Wade and Bosh didn't try to form a Super team to win titles. They never had a press conference expressing this same sentiment in 2010. No matter how anyone from Cleveland tries to spin this the strategy is the same.

Lebron stacked the deck and went to Miami to win titles and Durant went to Golden State to do the same. Both were a collective effort between star players to get it done.
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  #48  
Old 06-14-18, 10:46 AM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
The general idea is the same - let's team up to win Championships. You can talk apples and oranges all day, those moves were made for the exact same reason.
But but but Golden State Won more games in 2016. Therefore Pat Riley, James, Bosh, Wade and company did not form a super team in 2010 to win titles.
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  #49  
Old 06-14-18, 05:59 PM
cjb56 cjb56 is offline
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Alcindor/Kareem got his first title in Milwaukee after they acquired the Big O from the Cincinnati Royals. The Bucks couldn't get it done with just Alcindor, and the Royals had some great teams with Big O and Jerry Lucas, but couldn't get past Boston. Kareem couldn't get another title until Magic came to LA. Bottom line...you need more than one superstar, except in very rare cases, such as a young Seattle team beating a loaded Washington Bullets team back in the day.
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  #50  
Old 06-14-18, 06:49 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Durant on the Cavs instead of LeBron would have folded like a cheap tent after losing game 1 against Indiana.

Easy for Durant to stick out when he plays with 2 of the greatest shooters of all time and a lot of other good players.

Durant going from a 55 win OKC team to a record setting 73 win GS team is a bit different than LeBron going from a 61 win Cavs team to a 47 win Miami team. Also LeBron didn't choke a 3-1 lead against Miami the year before.

Apples and Oranges...
The Thunder went from 55 wins to 47 without Durant, and those Cavs went from 61 wins to 19 without LBJ - and back from 33 (Kyrie's 3rd season) to 53 wins when LeBron returned.

Durant seems to find it harder to be the best player than LeBron does.
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  #51  
Old 06-15-18, 04:44 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
Some call it the b1tch move, I call it smart. Why wouldnt you position yourself, in any endeavour, to give yourself the best possible chance of success?
It comes down to whether or not one places greater value upon winning without a contrived advantage, really. Winning on a "level playing field". I have more respect for what the Yankees have done recently than when they just bought finished products in free agency. Any dumbazz with a fat check book can do that.

Even with a hard salary cap, as I believe all sports should have as soon as LeBron retires or leaves Cleveland , one can tip the scales by working under his own market value like Brady has done in NE.
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  #52  
Old 06-16-18, 06:52 AM
Levi Levi is offline
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Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
So Lebron, Wade and Bosh didn't try to form a Super team to win titles. They never had a press conference expressing this same sentiment in 2010. No matter how anyone from Cleveland tries to spin this the strategy is the same.

Lebron stacked the deck and went to Miami to win titles and Durant went to Golden State to do the same. Both were a collective effort between star players to get it done.
Point is Golden State coming off of 67 and 73 wins were already a superteam. Durant went to a team that had two finals appearances including one Championship.
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  #53  
Old 06-17-18, 11:18 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
He think he has averaged 9.3 ppg for his career because he couldn't score more, or because he didn't need to score more?
Yeah, it's pretty clear Draymond fills a role for the good of the team that stats can't quantify.

He could maybe do more elsewhere, but then again, it's the attention paid to so many others that gets him the room to do what he does. Anthony Bennett, if he had had Draymond's drive and brain, could have maybe filled a similar role in today's NBA. Without the pace and floor spacing, though, those physical "tweeners" that lack raw speed get eaten up. Remember how they once started with Bogut, and then slipped Draymond in depending on opponent personnel and a heat check of their own back court ?

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 06-17-18 at 11:29 AM..
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  #54  
Old 06-17-18, 11:25 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Point is Golden State coming off of 67 and 73 wins were already a superteam. Durant went to a team that had two finals appearances including one Championship.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious that LeBron/Kyrie Cavs had cracked the code, Kerr and the Warriors recognized it, and they all deferred to Durant to regain the top status that they lucked into in '15. The year that Love and then Kyrie fell to injuries in the playoffs would have been the year they solved the riddle, and it really would be 2 Cavs, 2 Warriors after the Durant add. If not for the OKC collapse in '16, maybe Durant resigns in OKC ? Then the Warriors easily could have 0 Titles.

Timing is everything.
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  #55  
Old 06-18-18, 10:46 AM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Point is Golden State coming off of 67 and 73 wins were already a superteam. Durant went to a team that had two finals appearances including one Championship.
Point is Miami was still a player formed Super Team no matter how Lebron or his base tries to spin the narrative. Wade had his ring just like the Warriors had theirs. Bosh was icing on the cake and Miller was the Miami version of Kerr.
Could be argued Miami plucked all stars from two teams while the Warriors got one.

Wait until Durant talks Trevor Ariza into the fold and the Warriors unload a couple big bodies.
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  #56  
Old 06-18-18, 01:19 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Ariza would be a perfect fit for GS. It's be Iguodala 2.0 - they could really cut ties with Iggy but I think they're going to stick with him since he was the one who helped slow LeBron and them claim the '15 title.
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  #57  
Old 06-18-18, 04:11 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
Ariza would be a perfect fit for GS. It's be Iguodala 2.0 - they could really cut ties with Iggy but I think they're going to stick with him since he was the one who helped slow LeBron and them claim the '15 title.
Iggy showed up well in the last couple of games this year too. Can't even imagine the craziness if Ariza makes the move. No doubt there are discussions going on.

If Lebron goes hopefully it's West to really shake this thing up.
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  #58  
Old 06-19-18, 05:54 AM
Michael Bluth Michael Bluth is online now
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Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
Point is Miami was still a player formed Super Team no matter how Lebron or his base tries to spin the narrative. Wade had his ring just like the Warriors had theirs. Bosh was icing on the cake and Miller was the Miami version of Kerr.
Could be argued Miami plucked all stars from two teams while the Warriors got one.

Wait until Durant talks Trevor Ariza into the fold and the Warriors unload a couple big bodies.
Are you referring to the Miami team coming off of 15, 43, and 47 win seasons?

Durant was basically the government bailout of Goldman Sachs. They didnít need the money but they took it anyway (because hey, itís free money, who wouldnít?)

There is no basketball comparison to what Durant did, because nothing has come close. Iím not sure there is anything we can point to in the history of sports that stacked the decks so heavily against the rest of the league
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  #59  
Old 06-29-18, 04:47 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
While I donít like it ... what I call the AAU mentality ... joining up with other stars to form a Ďsuper teamí ... is the new norm in todayís NBA ... it is only going to get worse ... so get use to it.
The only thing that will change this is the fans growing weary of 20 iterations of the Washington Generals on their NBA League Pass and in their arenas.
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  #60  
Old 06-29-18, 05:45 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Bluth View Post
Are you referring to the Miami team coming off of 15, 43, and 47 win seasons?

Durant was basically the government bailout of Goldman Sachs. They didnít need the money but they took it anyway (because hey, itís free money, who wouldnít?)

There is no basketball comparison to what Durant did, because nothing has come close. Iím not sure there is anything we can point to in the history of sports that stacked the decks so heavily against the rest of the league
Nope. The Miami team that built a completely new super team around Wade, Lebron and Bosh. The team that added roughly ten new players from the Miami teams that won 15, 43 and 47 games. The super team that should have won three in a row. How many basketball comparisons are there that did what Miami did and won immediately. The narrative that Miami when Lebron got there is the same Miami the prior three years is laughable. Those guys got together and stacked the deck as well. More power to them.
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