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  #91  
Old 07-18-18, 02:15 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You guys are obsessed over words.
While I agree the usual suspects are vastly overreacting to this as always, let's not pretend the words of the President of the United States don't matter. Do they matter more than actions? Of course not. Are they meaningless? No.

I'm going to guess there were more than a few times you took issue with "just words" from Obama. Be consistent.
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  #92  
Old 07-18-18, 02:20 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Amazing how you still cannot comprehend.
Putin is very popular in Russia, under the doctrines of popular sovereignty and democracy that makes him legit. Your opinion of Putin doesn't matter, it's up to the people of Russia.
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  #93  
Old 07-18-18, 02:26 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
This recent obsession from the left about legitimizing people is laughable.

How do they think diplomacy works?
You might think that after Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. we might decide that enough American lives and treasure have been wasted in a futile pursuit of nation-building. But apparently we are supposed to destabilize the government of the illegitimate Vladimir Putin too.

What could possibly go wrong with that?
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  #94  
Old 07-18-18, 02:37 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
While I agree the usual suspects are vastly overreacting to this as always, let's not pretend the words of the President of the United States don't matter. Do they matter more than actions? Of course not. Are they meaningless? No.

I'm going to guess there were more than a few times you took issue with "just words" from Obama. Be consistent.
Taking issue is one thing. Obsession is another.
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  #95  
Old 07-18-18, 03:50 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Be consistent.

Or in chs1971's case understand what legitimacy means. Even after the definition has been spelled out right in front of your face.
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  #96  
Old 07-18-18, 03:57 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Be consistent.

Or in chs1971's case understand what legitimacy means. Even after the definition has been spelled out right in front of your face.
Like I said, the people of Russia get to make the rules, not you. They decide if Putin is legitimate or not. Your interpretation of legitimacy is irrelevant.
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  #97  
Old 07-18-18, 04:33 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
Do you think Putin cares about the state of the Russian economy in general ? Cares about the plight of average citizens? He si about being a strongman taker of resources, he TAKES, HE OWNS , He is ALL ABOUT HIS FAMILY and other helpful oligarchs and the rest can fend for themselves, he wants to appear strong and disrupt other country's and ideals, as long as he has this and takes what he wants the people of Russia are secondary to him .

Yes I do believe that Putin cares about Russia and the Russian people. Putin is a Russian patriot in every sense of the word. The key to understanding Putin though is to understand that what defines a Russian "patriot" is vastly different then what defines an American "patriot".

Putin is a classic Russian nationalist. He is exactly what the Russian people want. The Russians are a product of their history and their history is one long record of invasion by the most murderous figures imaginable. Whereas an American would bristle at the notion of sacrificing freedom for security the Russians embrace the concept. I suspect we might be more sympathetic to Russian feelings here if over a 1,000 year history we had experienced massive onslaughts of foreign invaders who slaughtered, enslaved, raped and destroyed their way across our country.

Putin deeply desires to make Russia great again and he clearly suffers from a sense of humiliation, one that is shared by a lot of Russians, of how they lost the Cold War. I believe that Trump and his folks have a pretty good take on Putin's psychology, his strengths & weaknesses, and they are trying to play him into being more cooperative in managing global affairs. It may or may not work but the Trump people clearly saw no value in attacking Putin in public and correctly surmised that such attacks could lead to undesirable outcomes. Sort of like poking a wounded dog and being shocked when it bites you.
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  #98  
Old 07-18-18, 04:36 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Like I said, the people of Russia get to make the rules, not you. They decide if Putin is legitimate or not. Your interpretation of legitimacy is irrelevant.
With what elections?
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  #99  
Old 07-18-18, 04:37 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Be consistent.
Show me where I am not being consistent.
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  #100  
Old 07-18-18, 04:40 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is online now
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I was more talking about economically which I know you will immediately say it's all the last year and a half because of Trump that the country is not really a super power economically speaking because of heavy Trump actions so you can save that.

I know the talking point , Putin obviously is insanely rich as our a very small percentage of Russian citizens that tells you what? He cares for al Russians ? yes he cares about how people perceive Russia but his policies are about the rich becoming insanely rich which is the reason for the large economic disparity that makes ours look like socialism .


I don't thin Trump had to attack him at all , he just needed to stand up to him lightly and offer his support and trust in OUR and HIS intelligence professionals. That you don't see any problem with Trump's performance is telling
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  #101  
Old 07-18-18, 04:43 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
While I agree the usual suspects are vastly overreacting to this as always, let's not pretend the words of the President of the United States don't matter. Do they matter more than actions? Of course not. Are they meaningless? No.

I'm going to guess there were more than a few times you took issue with "just words" from Obama. Be consistent.
The thing is NEO that in judging Trump's words at the Press conference, I have to simultaneously consider his actions. He spoke sweetly to Putin but his actions have been borderline hostile. With Obama we often ONLY had words to go by as his actions were rather tame or non-existent. So yes because in most things Obama ONLY had words to offer, people reacted stronger to them. With Trump, his words don't mean that much in the face of his actions.

And for the record the words of the POTUS are meaningful and it seems to me that we witnessed a strategery at the presser. Trump decided to play nice with Putin. To what end I don't know but I can guess. Bottom line is I'm willing to let it play out because there is no greater danger to America's survival then stumbling into a nuclear war with Russia. NONE. So to quote Churchill here "it's better to jaw/jaw then make war/war".
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  #102  
Old 07-18-18, 04:48 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
I was more talking about economically which I know you will immediately say it's all the last year and a half because of Trump that the country is not really a super power economically speaking because of heavy Trump actions so you can save that.

I know the talking point , Putin obviously is insanely rich as our a very small percentage of Russian citizens that tells you what? He cares for al Russians ? yes he cares about how people perceive Russia but his policies are about the rich becoming insanely rich which is the reason for the large economic disparity that makes ours look like socialism .


I don't thin Trump had to attack him at all , he just needed to stand up to him lightly and offer his support and trust in OUR and HIS intelligence professionals. That you don't see any problem with Trump's performance is telling
Successful Russian leaders are ruthless and rich. It's one of the perks of the job. Like I said Russian nationalism & patriotism are very different then the American versions. They are colored by a 1,000 year history of brutal invasion.

The great Russian Czar Ivan the Terrible wasn't called Ivan the Sweet for a reason.
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  #103  
Old 07-18-18, 05:07 PM
FootballFan1795 FootballFan1795 is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Yes I do believe that Putin cares about Russia and the Russian people. Putin is a Russian patriot in every sense of the word ...

... Putin deeply desires to make Russia great again and he clearly suffers from a sense of humiliation, one that is shared by a lot of Russians, of how they lost the Cold War.
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  #104  
Old 07-18-18, 05:23 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
And for the record the words of the POTUS are meaningful and it seems to me that we witnessed a strategery at the presser. Trump decided to play nice with Putin. To what end I don't know but I can guess.
At some point it probably makes sense to concede that Trump says dumb things in the moment because his ego can't handle the idea that some people think Russian meddling delegitimizes his historic victory, rather than everything being a game of 4d chess.

He said something stupid and borderline disgraceful, and then walked it back with an obvious lie about misspeaking. I personally don't find this to be a deal breaker as this isn't a priority issue for me, and on my priority issues(taxes, supreme court, regulations) he has done well. But that doesn't mean we can't call a spade a spade.

Quote:
Bottom line is I'm willing to let it play out because there is no greater danger to America's survival then stumbling into a nuclear war with Russia. NONE.
That would be pretty bad you're right. But there is zero chance of it happening, much less happening because Trump said he believed our intelligence agencies over Putin's word at a press conference.

Putin is a genuinely bad person. He has had political opponents and journalists killed. He's invaded two sovereign nations. He's created even more chaos in the middle east by propping up one of the worst human rights violators of the 21st century. But he is at least a rational actor. He isn't trying to extend the caliphate. Everything he does is to the end of maintaining his power in Russia so he can continue to enrich himself personally. Nuclear war over personal insults is not a logical fear to have.
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  #105  
Old 07-18-18, 05:46 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
He said something stupid and borderline disgraceful, and then walked it back with an obvious lie about misspeaking.
He wasn't lying. It was just a double negative.
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  #106  
Old 07-18-18, 05:55 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
At some point it probably makes sense to concede that Trump says dumb things in the moment because his ego can't handle the idea that some people think Russian meddling delegitimizes his historic victory, rather than everything being a game of 4d chess.

He said something stupid and borderline disgraceful, and then walked it back with an obvious lie about misspeaking. I personally don't find this to be a deal breaker as this isn't a priority issue for me, and on my priority issues(taxes, supreme court, regulations) he has done well. But that doesn't mean we can't call a spade a spade.



That would be pretty bad you're right. But there is zero chance of it happening, much less happening because Trump said he believed our intelligence agencies over Putin's word at a press conference.

Putin is a genuinely bad person. He has had political opponents and journalists killed. He's invaded two sovereign nations. He's created even more chaos in the middle east by propping up one of the worst human rights violators of the 21st century. But he is at least a rational actor. He isn't trying to extend the caliphate. Everything he does is to the end of maintaining his power in Russia so he can continue to enrich himself personally. Nuclear war over personal insults is not a logical fear to have.
Actually NEO I used to think that Trump frequently said dumb things and that his constant blabbering was holding him back and if he'd only think before speaking he would be far better off. But I'm not so sure that's true as he seems to always bounce back stronger then before the latest "outrage" while his detractors emerge weaker.

I'm not saying he's playing "4D Chess". His tactics aren't rocket science which may be the reason they work. Modern society has over complicated everything and Trump cuts through the entanglement like the wise/crazy uncle of Thanksgiving lore. And it doesn't hurt that he's entertaining to boot.

Oh and what exactly was "disgraceful" about what he said at the press conference? I'm sorry but Trump has sound reasons to be skeptical of our national Intelligence Agencies. Sure a lot of the folks working in these organizations are busting their butts but at the same time how can you not be a little underwhelmed by the output of the last 25 years? And now we have credible evidence that at least some of the senior leaders in these agencies played politics in the last election.

As for Putin creating more chaos in the Middle East, I believe that if you're being fair GW Bush and his merry band of nation building neo-cons probably hold the record for spreading anarchy across that region. And right or wrong, Russia has a long relationship with Syria (the Soviet Union had a naval base there) so it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that they would support the dictator Assad.

And one final thought, if you want to stabilize the Middle East and end the slaughter you must have Russia's cooperation. Net, Trump plays nice with Putin at the Presser and causes all the delicate folks to collectively lose their minds at the horror.
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  #107  
Old 07-18-18, 06:11 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I'm not saying he's playing "4D Chess"
You certainly stretch to come up with explanations other than the obvious when the obvious explanation might make your guy look bad.

His ego doesn't like to acknowledge that Russia meddled in the election because he sees it as deligitimizing his victory, and he conflates meddling with collusion(as do lots of people to be fair.) If we're looking to "not over-complicate things" that is pretty clearly the logical explanation. As evidenced by him making up an obvious lie to walk back the statements after he had some time to think about it.

Out of curiosity, how would you feel about Trump helping Putin prosecute American citizens?
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  #108  
Old 07-18-18, 06:21 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is online now
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Lotty is quite the intellectual acrobat when tryig to contort himself into pretzels to explain trump. He can't stop , he's addicted to trying to explain Trump , and trying to explain a vapid novice in this particular job is" tough duty" as Jim Tressel might say
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  #109  
Old 07-18-18, 06:52 PM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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Have to agree with Neo in this exchange. Lotr you are defending the indefensible. The Trumpster was definitely not himself during that presser. He looked tired and distracted. Now Iím not going all happy, Hairy TP with the reasons and the treason talk is just more golden nuggets from the left. With all that said, he will recover from this and it is already starting to fade. The Dems and the MSM still donít realize that the more they pound the more they drive rational people away. As Neo stated, and you know I hate agreeing with that derp, most people vote with their wallets. The SCOTUS, immigration and regulation cutting are just icing. He could honestly leave now and I would be fine. Although, I do love him freaking out DC
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  #110  
Old 07-18-18, 07:09 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
You certainly stretch to come up with explanations other than the obvious when the obvious explanation might make your guy look bad.

His ego doesn't like to acknowledge that Russia meddled in the election because he sees it as deligitimizing his victory, and he conflates meddling with collusion(as do lots of people to be fair.) If we're looking to "not over-complicate things" that is pretty clearly the logical explanation. As evidenced by him making up an obvious lie to walk back the statements after he had some time to think about it.

Out of curiosity, how would you feel about Trump helping Putin prosecute American citizens?
^ Some may think otherwise, that is, that meddling and collusion are of the same tree. That is, maybe even Trump?
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  #111  
Old 07-18-18, 07:10 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is online now
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You hope that the far left craziness will propel the right and the salt of the earth truth teller Republicans to power into infinity . that's a wish not a reality that you know will happen .

I an NOT A LEFTIST, on this board in this space anyone not really an ultra conservative and a Trump supporter and an Obama basher is automatically classified as a total faaaaaar left delusional , unhinged and downright crazy when the reality is in my case some of you are much further right than I am left .


You guys stick together , no bashing of any even remotely like thought, the few or the 7 percent of the forum? Bash is a requirement after every post. Football back soon and I will be gone for the most part , so that goes back to about 6 percent of non Right thought. Really need to rename the space it's a right wing conservative message board and anyone else is crazy deranged and devoid of any credibility. Kind of like a Fox news branch Ohio , yes I realize that not one of you ever watches fox, you only quote the Prez himself or right wing blogs.
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  #112  
Old 07-18-18, 07:53 PM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
You hope that the far left craziness will propel the right and the salt of the earth truth teller Republicans to power into infinity . that's a wish not a reality that you know will happen .

I an NOT A LEFTIST, on this board in this space anyone not really an ultra conservative and a Trump supporter and an Obama basher is automatically classified as a total faaaaaar left delusional , unhinged and downright crazy when the reality is in my case some of you are much further right than I am left .


You guys stick together , no bashing of any even remotely like thought, the few or the 7 percent of the forum? Bash is a requirement after every post. Football back soon and I will be gone for the most part , so that goes back to about 6 percent of non Right thought. Really need to rename the space it's a right wing conservative message board and anyone else is crazy deranged and devoid of any credibility. Kind of like a Fox news branch Ohio , yes I realize that not one of you ever watches fox, you only quote the Prez himself or right wing blogs.
Donít sell yourself short hairy, no one is more left and looney than you
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  #113  
Old 07-18-18, 07:58 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
... delusional , unhinged and downright crazy ...
You may not be a total communist, the rest apply though.
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  #114  
Old 07-18-18, 08:03 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by zeeman View Post
Have to agree with Neo in this exchange. Lotr you are defending the indefensible. The Trumpster was definitely not himself during that presser. He looked tired and distracted. Now Iím not going all happy, Hairy TP with the reasons and the treason talk is just more golden nuggets from the left. With all that said, he will recover from this and it is already starting to fade. The Dems and the MSM still donít realize that the more they pound the more they drive rational people away. As Neo stated, and you know I hate agreeing with that derp, most people vote with their wallets. The SCOTUS, immigration and regulation cutting are just icing. He could honestly leave now and I would be fine. Although, I do love him freaking out DC
Zeeman I agree that Trump's performance at the presser was mediocre at best and I'm not defending it. He could have done better but given what I think Trump is trying to achieve here he's just not the orator to pull it off. I also suspect that Trump does get worn down by the relentless attacks and misrepresentation of what he says by the American media. Before meeting with Putin he had to endure the hysterical lying of the MSM about his NATO and Britain visits.

What I am defending is Trump's decision NOT to attack Putin at the press conference. Confronting Vlad in this forum would have been counterproductive to any hope the Trump administration has of getting the Russians on side with respect to Middle East peace. Trump is doing the right thing here even if his implementation of his strategy has been underwhelming and poorly executed. What mattered here, IMO, was what went on behind closed doors.
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  #115  
Old 07-18-18, 08:14 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
You hope that the far left craziness will propel the right and the salt of the earth truth teller Republicans to power into infinity . that's a wish not a reality that you know will happen .

I an NOT A LEFTIST, on this board in this space anyone not really an ultra conservative and a Trump supporter and an Obama basher is automatically classified as a total faaaaaar left delusional , unhinged and downright crazy when the reality is in my case some of you are much further right than I am left .


You guys stick together , no bashing of any even remotely like thought, the few or the 7 percent of the forum? Bash is a requirement after every post. Football back soon and I will be gone for the most part , so that goes back to about 6 percent of non Right thought. Really need to rename the space it's a right wing conservative message board and anyone else is crazy deranged and devoid of any credibility. Kind of like a Fox news branch Ohio , yes I realize that not one of you ever watches fox, you only quote the Prez himself or right wing blogs.
We stick together? Really Harry, because what I see is a fair amount of ongoing disagreement among the various "right" wing folks on this forum. Where I see lock step group think is among you guys.

As for the ideological background of the "right wing" folks on Yappi it's all over the place. You have hard core fiscal conservatives; social conservatives; religious conservatives; sometime-conservatives; populists; red blooded AR-15 toting tobacco chewing whiskey drinking good ole boy conservatives and of course our stable of Ron Paul Libertarians.

That you don't recognize the diversity of the right wing on Yappi speaks more to your bigotry against all things to the right. Harry you and your fellow travelers see us as a monolithic group that marches to the same ideological drum. In other words you're looking into a mirror when you look at us. In truth put a group of us together in a room and try to organize us for a task and the result would be the equivalent of herding cats. We are the truly diverse while you are a clone.
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  #116  
Old 07-18-18, 08:17 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is online now
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Mediocre? Could have done better? Just a tad off his game was he? Damn man there is nothing you won't overlook and not defend. Who the frick said he had to attack Putin? Not everything is either or . It's the exact opposite, it wasn' the execution at all , it was his THOUGTHS the situation he is in right now his mindset.

He didn't prepare or have a plan that much is obvious , but he is in Putin's camp, he knows he got Russian money at some point for campaign funds and got a huge boost from Russian in the election , even you have to admit that at this point.


As always what's important to you is what you can't know and can't see , EVERYTIME it's the shadow the unknowable that interests you and not only that you claim that it's evidence of your stance.


Your credibility is pretty much gone with even the furthest of the right here. Sorry man I know how you strive to be the know it all trying to be right guy , but good grief my man. WOW
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  #117  
Old 07-18-18, 08:18 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
You certainly stretch to come up with explanations other than the obvious when the obvious explanation might make your guy look bad.

His ego doesn't like to acknowledge that Russia meddled in the election because he sees it as deligitimizing his victory, and he conflates meddling with collusion(as do lots of people to be fair.) If we're looking to "not over-complicate things" that is pretty clearly the logical explanation. As evidenced by him making up an obvious lie to walk back the statements after he had some time to think about it.

Out of curiosity, how would you feel about Trump helping Putin prosecute American citizens?
Not at all NEO. I just think you struggle with separating Trump's style, which can be a mess, from the substance of what he's trying to do which in this case is spot on. Trumpo's approach to the summit with Putin was brilliant IMO. His execution of the approach not so much.
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  #118  
Old 07-18-18, 08:24 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is online now
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Putting words in my mouth ? Thoughts ? Things you can't see ? Of course you are. I realize you aren't all far right or moderate right , but you don't attack each other personally or treat each other like you do the 8 percent out here.

Yes I am aware there are lower to middle middle class Fairfield Ohio right wingers, and rich uppity Dublin Ohio Elephants . I see the differences in taste and lifestyle . I get it.

You thoughts are not important because you come from one thought , DEFEND the right defend a life long Democrat reality TV star con man who changed the letter after his name and became a conservative because he knew the liberals which he had been most of his life thought him a joke as a potential leader.

I realize you think he is ethical a man of integrity and a strong leader like his role model Vlad Putin is . Just come clean and admit it you thin Trump is a great leader and are proud of him ? How much more are you' Collecting from the Gov a week because he was elected?
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  #119  
Old 07-18-18, 08:26 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is online now
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What was his approach supposed to be and how did his execution go awry again?
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  #120  
Old 07-18-18, 08:30 PM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
Putting words in my mouth ? Thoughts ? Things you can't see ? Of course you are. I realize you aren't all far right or moderate right , but you don't attack each other personally or treat each other like you do the 8 percent out here.

Yes I am aware there are lower to middle middle class Fairfield Ohio right wingers, and rich uppity Dublin Ohio Elephants . I see the differences in taste and lifestyle . I get it.

You thoughts are not important because you come from one thought , DEFEND the right defend a life long Democrat reality TV star con man who changed the letter after his name and became a conservative because he knew the liberals which he had been most of his life thought him a joke as a potential leader.
I realize you think he is ethical a man of integrity and a strong leader like his role model Vlad Putin is . Just come clean and admit it you thin Trump is a great leader and are proud of him ? How much more are you' Collecting from the Gov a week because he was elected?
I am proud of him and you are jealous of him. And as an aside, methinks you are enfatuated with him. Are you getting tired of creepily watching HS aged boys and are more turned on by the elderly? Hairy, you dog!
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