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  #1  
Old 03-18-18, 06:07 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Are wrestlers improving in college?

I'm fairly certain, this will cause a short circuit with some readers, but this is what I'm seeing... There are an overwhelming number of wrestlers that don't look as good their 3rd, 4th or 5th year, as they did their first or second year. It's simply an observation, but I'm talking about a lot of top notch guys. Before I get going, I'm not trying to attack anyone. I'm playing devils advocate with what I'm seeing.

Now let me back up a bit and tell you what I'm seeing specifically...

More and more freshman and sophomore national finalists. A number of the big dogs of a couple of years ago are being caught up with quickly. There are plenty of examples across the board... however, looking just at Ohio, it's tough not to see how much talent and potential a number of the buckeyes had coming through the door. BoJo was one of the best I had ever seen in middle school and high school, Tomasello was a finalist right out of the gate, and Snyder was other worldly coming out of high school. Fast forward and nobody can argue they all had magnificent careers, but are they really wrestling better today than years past? I would argue No.

BoJo erupted on the seen and challenged for title as a freshman, NATO won as a freshman never to return to the big stage, and while Snyder was the best in the country the last three years, he was beat this season and scored on multiple times at NCAA's. AGAIN, this is not taking shots at them. I'm using them as an example because they are wrestlers and names we all know very well. They all had amazing careers any one of us could only dream of. I looking at another side of it. Years ago, starting at the level of these guys (as freshman) usually meant ending at a level so dominant that no other even competes.

In a sport that most would argue is dying, how can this b happening? I have three thoughts... Again, playing Devils Advocate.

Scenario 1:
College coaches are not as good as everyone thinks they are. We give them a lot of credit, but most are basically recruiting talent and then running open mats for practice. Very little drilling or development is going on. So the development becomes stagnant. Not that wrestlers don't learn. You have to learn to survive in college especially hand fighting and position, but technique development becomes limited.

or

Senario 2:
Wrestlers just keep getting better and better at a younger age and are able to compete with college kids much quicker. A lot of this has to do with younger starting ages, and the growth of top notch tournaments for younger age groups. But how in a dying sport is this really feasible. Is it because we become so much more focused. I competed in several sports in high school, are most selecting only one now?

or

Senario 3
The sport needs to be adjusted earlier and especially at the college level to limit the wear and tear on the body. The grind and the rules are such that competitors bodies are breaking down earlier than they once did. Not sure if this is the evolutionary demands of the sport or the younger starting age. But knees and shoulders are going left and right.

Thoughts?


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  #2  
Old 03-18-18, 06:12 PM
nkawtg135 nkawtg135 is offline
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Dean Heil, IMAR, Zeke Moisey, and Tsirtis. All were very good this year but we’re better 3 -4 years ago. The Penn State guys have al improved though.
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  #3  
Old 03-18-18, 06:58 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkawtg135 View Post
Dean Heil, IMAR, Zeke Moisey, and Tsirtis. All were very good this year but weíre better 3 -4 years ago. The Penn State guys have al improved though.
What about Matt McCutcheon and Frank Molinaro?
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  #4  
Old 03-18-18, 07:04 PM
FirestoneFan FirestoneFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab Ride View Post
What about Matt McCutcheon and Frank Molinaro?
I want to see where they are now. Life does go on after wrestling.
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  #5  
Old 03-18-18, 07:14 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab Ride View Post
What about Matt McCutcheon and Frank Molinaro?
Matt McCutcheon lost his spot after a major injury. This would potentially fall under the senario 3 section of wear and tear... or maybe it's just bad luck... or it could easily fall under senario 2 where a younger Cassar was able to beat him in the wrestle off.

I think it would be tough to argue that Frank Molinaro somehow failed. He improved each year and was undefeated as a senior winning an NCAA title. And I believe beat Logan to make an Olympic team.

You seem to want to bring Penn State into this which is fine, but I think you're missing the discussion point. I'm talking about the sport as a whole, while you are hyper focused on the individuals used as an example. Penn State surely has plenty that fall into the category of falling off as they age. They just don't seem to be as present in the Cael era.


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Old 03-18-18, 07:34 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
Matt McCutcheon lost his spot after a major injury. This would potentially fall under the senario 3 section of wear and tear... or maybe it's just bad luck... or it could easily fall under senario 2 where a younger Cassar was able to beat him in the wrestle off.

I think it would be tough to argue that Frank Molinaro somehow failed. He improved each year and was undefeated as a senior winning an NCAA title. And I believe beat Logan to make an Olympic team.

You seem to want to bring Penn State into this which is fine, but I think you're missing the discussion point. I'm talking about the sport as a whole, while you are hyper focused on the individuals used as an example. Penn State surely has plenty that fall into the category of falling off as they age. They just don't seem to be as present in the Cael era.


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And you missed my take on it. What about all the hold backs?
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  #7  
Old 03-18-18, 07:43 PM
keato keato is offline
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Iíll let you know in a year!!!
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  #8  
Old 03-18-18, 07:42 PM
MPhillips MPhillips is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
You seem to want to bring Penn State into this which is fine, but I think you're missing the discussion point. I'm talking about the sport as a whole, while you are hyper focused on the individuals used as an example. Coach Root
Absolutely.
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  #9  
Old 03-18-18, 06:18 PM
Mr. Red Mr. Red is offline
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I think scenario 2 is spot on. Personally, these young men impress me with the high caliber of technique they have somewhat mastered at a young age. It is definitely fun to watch.

One other thing to consider is that there are a number of other things to consider why some talent does not develop like we anticipate. For example, Bojo having father duties definitely takes away from the commitment aspect. I would slightly argue your case about Snyder. His freshman year was incredible, but he was beaten by Gadsden who he TF at the world trials. Plus giving up as much weight as he does, there is no wonder he gave up some point. Iíd say he has developed at an astronomical pace.

Lastly, having video of opponents and strategies is incredibly helpful. NCAA champions have more video analysis of them than any time in history.

Just my two cents.


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  #10  
Old 03-18-18, 06:27 PM
wash.c.h.legend wash.c.h.legend is offline
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My initial thinking is exactly the last remark. The more you see someoneís tendencies the more likely you are to exploit them. And college coaches are so good, they exploit them to a very high degree.


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  #11  
Old 03-18-18, 06:32 PM
miketyson miketyson is offline
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I think it has to do with wear and tear

on the body after so many years. Also its hard to keep that hunger to keep improving and keep staying with the grind. Does anyone know the stats for how many 5th year all americans in the past 10 years its not as much as you would think.
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  #12  
Old 03-18-18, 06:45 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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To say Snyder hasn’t improved is ludicrous. He gave up takedowns as a freshman at 197. Wrestling and beating guys who consistently outweigh you by 40-60 pounds takes a phenomenal amount of talent. While you picked three OSU guys I notice you left out Zain. He wasn’t terribly impressive this weekend and I noticed him giving up takedowns this year as well.

My take, which has been debated for years here, is the constant holding back of these kids. By the time they get to college most have wrestled two years longer. That’s two more years of wear and tear on the body.
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  #13  
Old 03-18-18, 07:06 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab Ride View Post
To say Snyder hasnít improved is ludicrous. He gave up takedowns as a freshman at 197. Wrestling and beating guys who consistently outweigh you by 40-60 pounds takes a phenomenal amount of talent. While you picked three OSU guys I notice you left out Zain. He wasnít terribly impressive this weekend and I noticed him giving up takedowns this year as well.

My take, which has been debated for years here, is the constant holding back of these kids. By the time they get to college most have wrestled two years longer. Thatís two more years of wear and tear on the body.
Easy turbo... I used Ohio State guys as an example since we all know and follow the Ohio State guys more regularly (being from Ohio). I wasn't attacking them. I think they are all phenomenal wrestlers. Snyder may go down as the best ever. But you can believe what you want... the Snyder I watched this weekend, was not as dominant as the Snyder I saw as a sophomore or even a freshman when he lost in the finals. The freshman got thrown, but was more impressive... just my thoughts.

You are welcome to use Zain as another example. I would agree that he looked tight in the finals. Tough to argue that he lost a step though, since he's at like 90%+ bonus rate, and likely Hodge winner. I can agree that there are a ton of guys across the board that seem to lose a step later in their college career. Again, it wasn't directed at Ohio State guys. It was an observation about our sport.


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  #14  
Old 03-18-18, 06:55 PM
FirestoneFan FirestoneFan is offline
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I will post something later but I do not agree with you Coach Root. Maybe let the kids catch snakes and frogs, learn how to fish, hunt and have some fun before 7th grade. My kids didn't start wrestling until jr high and both had great high school careers by my standards and have grown up to be great men and pillars of there communities. Fixing there cars to go to prom sometimes was more important than wrestling practice and I did not . If anything less than a national, state, district or sectional championship is the final grade than I really think we need to is this really why do we wrestle!! Most wrestlers end their careers at sectionals in high school. Are the kids that advance to districts that much so special? or from district to state.

Good luck in life to all wrestlers!!
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  #15  
Old 03-18-18, 07:50 PM
keato keato is offline
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I will however throw this out there, how many times did you see kids choose neutral down a point or tied??? This tells me they don’t trust themselves to get a point from the bottom position. Please don’t come back with the guy riding is a beast and nobody scores from the bottom when he’s riding!!!
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  #16  
Old 03-18-18, 08:09 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keato View Post
I will however throw this out there, how many times did you see kids choose neutral down a point or tied??? This tells me they donít trust themselves to get a point from the bottom position. Please donít come back with the guy riding is a beast and nobody scores from the bottom when heís riding!!!
Why do people think escaping is an ďeasy pointĒ and that you are deficient if you donít take bottom? I can score a riding time point and 4 point nearfall from top vs 1 by choosing bottom. When are people gonna realize that top wrestling is getting much better because the reward for being good is so much greater. Hint: get really good on top and take that position or neutral every time. The top NCCA wrestlers are typically best on their feet and on top. To hell with bottom. The auto bottom mentality is for old timers.
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  #17  
Old 03-18-18, 08:15 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
Why do people think escaping is an ďeasy pointĒ and that you are deficient if you donít take bottom? I can score a riding time point and 4 point nearfall from top vs 1 by choosing bottom. When are people gonna realize that top wrestling is getting much better because the reward for being good is so much greater. Hint: get really good on top and take that position or neutral every time. The top NCCA wrestlers are typically best on their feet and on top. To hell with bottom. The auto bottom mentality is for old timers.
Good points.
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  #18  
Old 03-18-18, 10:14 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
Why do people think escaping is an ďeasy pointĒ and that you are deficient if you donít take bottom? I can score a riding time point and 4 point nearfall from top vs 1 by choosing bottom. When are people gonna realize that top wrestling is getting much better because the reward for being good is so much greater. Hint: get really good on top and take that position or neutral every time. The top NCCA wrestlers are typically best on their feet and on top. To hell with bottom. The auto bottom mentality is for old timers.
Man, I have thought this for years. I'll be honest and say that when I'm officiating some times and I see a kid get ridden a whole period and maybe even turned, losing by a point or two. Comes to the third period and he chooses bottom. I'm flabbergasted. Spends the whole third period and all his energy trying to get out. Either doesn't, gets turned or gets out near the end of the match and loses.

You know I watched Spencer Lee enough over these last few weeks to know, not to pick bottom on him. I mean if you watch the kid and look into match ups you could tell that Nate was not going to beat him this time. I thought, he is turning everyone and these kids are not slouches. I can't see any reason that he will not turn Nate too. Sure enough. Bam!
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  #19  
Old 03-18-18, 10:24 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Originally Posted by wjjsj View Post
Man, I have thought this for years. I'll be honest and say that when I'm officiating some times and I see a kid get ridden a whole period and maybe even turned, losing by a point or two. Comes to the third period and he chooses bottom. I'm flabbergasted. Spends the whole third period and all his energy trying to get out. Either doesn't, gets turned or gets out near the end of the match and loses.

You know I watched Spencer Lee enough over these last few weeks to know, not to pick bottom on him. I mean if you watch the kid and look into match ups you could tell that Nate was not going to beat him this time. I thought, he is turning everyone and these kids are not slouches. I can't see any reason that he will not turn Nate too. Sure enough. Bam!
Agree 100%. I donít care how good a kid is from the bottom. If you are wrestling a really good top wrestler, you should not under. The scoring system does not make it worth the risk and why would you put your opponent in a position of strength?
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  #20  
Old 03-18-18, 07:52 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Sure some kids regress but the vast majority improve. Kyle Snyder is obviously better but is he as dominant? No. Elite wrestlers entering college are way more prepared AND the better you are, increments of improvement are smaller. Coon is much better than he was 2 years ago because he had much more room for improvement. There comes a point where every human being butts up against their potential. That does not mean they are getting poor coaching.
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Old 03-18-18, 08:15 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
There comes a point where every human being butts up against their potential. That does not mean they are getting poor coaching.
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Old 03-18-18, 07:59 PM
Divided42 Divided42 is offline
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Well I'll tell ya who has improved just a smidge, how about my man Tariq Wilson? Just absolutely wrecked Seth Gross on his feet. 5 TDs to 0 in regulation I believe? Myles Amine from Michigan is another one that just keeps improving. Also lol on the stall calls versus Valencia up 4-2 in the semi's.
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  #23  
Old 03-18-18, 08:06 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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I think there is places where the coaches are really developing kids. NC State seems to have that type of coaching staff. Tariq was on fire.


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  #24  
Old 03-19-18, 08:51 AM
Hendo30 Hendo30 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I think there is places where the coaches are really developing kids. NC State seems to have that type of coaching staff. Tariq was on fire.


Coach Root
Wilson has impressed me even in his D2 high school days the kid was excellent on his feet. Having a returning All American in the weight above you in Kevin Jack can surely help you get up to speed for D1 competition. One of my favorite match's of the tournament was the Wilson vs Brock match that was an exciting match! Hidlay was a beast coming out of High school. I don't know much about their 197 except he is a national champ now.
4 All Americans is great and I agree their coches have done a great job but I would expect 2 of those guys to be All Americans I knew nothing about the 197 and honestly am not surprised that Wilson was an AA but wasn't expecting him to be top 3 and almost a finalist. He had a great tournament and was pulling for him in every match along with all Ohio kids. But NC State had some disappointments too. Another local kid I pull for Fausz returning AA went 1-2 as did 3 other of their qualifiers. My point is I'm not sure they are doing a better job of developing their kids as any of the other top 5 schools. Their program is definitely getting better I'm not knocking them.
I know you were using Ohio State as an example in this thread because we are familiar with the names and that the thread was just for conversation. In my opinion Ohio State has done a great Job 8 All Americans is amazing! When it comes to the top 8 guys in a weight class anything can happen they are all razor close except for a few.
You don't see 4x National champs like you see 4x high school champs. Mark Hall was the phenom Freshman last year and he doesn't win it this year. Does that mean Penn State didn't develop him no it doesn't. Spencer Lee and Yianni Diakomihalis are world champs so I wasn't surprised by them winning national titles.
Lee beating Tomasello does that mean Tomasello hasn't developed No it doesn't. Spencer Lee was a class act in his remarks about Tomasello he showed respect for him. Shows me he knows that matchup could go either way.
Bo Jordan Sure I wanted him to win a title and since he didn't do I think he didn't develop the answer is no! That dude is a champ in my eyes for being a man stepping up taking care of his family first and then continuing to compete at a great level.
Kyle Snyder one of the greatest ever. I think he loses 2 matches in his college career Olympic gold medalist and World champion has he not developed No! He's a true champion who continues to impress I don't see many others who could give up the weight he does and still win that is amazing.

Thanks Nathan Tomasello, Bo Jordan, and Kyle Snider it's been great watching all 3 of you become 4x All Americans that's incredible! Best of luck in your future!




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  #25  
Old 03-18-18, 08:42 PM
wash.c.h.legend wash.c.h.legend is offline
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Wrestling graham every year I can tell you that you will be on your feet the whole match.


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  #26  
Old 03-18-18, 08:52 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Top/bottom is an epidemic at Ohio State and has been through two coaching staffs. It cost them the national title this weekend.

As far as Coach Root's initial post, I'm going to say it's a combination of all three.
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  #27  
Old 03-18-18, 09:20 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
Top/bottom is an epidemic at Ohio State and has been through two coaching staffs. It cost them the national title this weekend.

As far as Coach Root's initial post, I'm going to say it's a combination of all three.
I donít see that conclusion at all. I grant that the Jordanís are not good bottom wrestlers but outside of them, who has huge deficinacies on the mat? It is tiresome to keep hearing people say stuff like nato is not good on bottom because Lee rode him and Lizak scored from top. Of course they did. They are elite from that position. Natoís top game was the best itís been this year. Pletchers mat wrestling is decent. McKennas is excellent. Hayes is excellent. Campbell is good on top. Myles is good in all positions. Moore can get better on top but is very good underneath. They lost the national title on Friday night when they lost the 1st four semis and none of those losses were because of mat wrestling. Even Michah did not lose because of his mat wrestling. Nolf is just way better period.
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Old 03-18-18, 09:28 PM
nooks nooks is offline
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I think everyone has sort of touched on this, but I'll go further...It's the "burn out" factor.
Today's top college kids almost all started intense wrestling in grade school, or Jr. high. 40 years ago, the vast majority of future college wrestlers didn't really start H.S type intensity drilling until H.S. Many did, but most didn't. In fact most of the best wrestlers actually played "other" sports as well....These kids today simply "burn out" after finally achieving early success in college. It's all they've ever done.
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  #29  
Old 03-18-18, 09:25 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Coach Root for Ohio State coach 2018-19.
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  #30  
Old 03-18-18, 09:52 PM
miketyson miketyson is offline
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its unheard to score

the amount of points ohio state did and not win the title. To say that they are not improving enough is pretty ridiculous you have 8 all americans and put up 134 points and say they are not improving....come on really? What if they win the title .....I bet this post doesnt happen.
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