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  #1  
Old 02-13-18, 10:27 PM
OL_Coach OL_Coach is offline
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Seeding Criteria at Sectionals

Just looking for some info.

In years past we have discussed head to heads, common opponents and so forth like any other seed meeting at our sectionals, until last season.

We were told we could not compare common opponents and so forth. How does everyone else do their sectional meetings?

With the criteria list on OHSAA, is this just a starting point?

10.6 Seeding Criteria:
10.6.1 Returning state placer (1-3) at any weight class
10.6.2 Returning state placer (4-8) at any weight class. A “New” (Freshman or upperclassman that was not a contender last year) wrestler that has more than 25 wins and has defeated a wrestler listed above him on the list and has a higher winning percentage will be seeded above the returning state place winner at any weight class
(4-8). *The coach must e-mail the credentials to the manager.
10.6.3 Returning district placer (1-6) at any weight class. A “New” (Freshman or upperclassman that was not a contender last year) wrestler that has more than 20 wins and has a higher winning percentage than the returning district place winner will be seeded above the returning district place winner at any weight class (1-6). - What if Johnny has wrestled a cupcake schedule and has I greater win percentage, but has lost to the district placer? According to this he gets seeded above the district placer.

10.6.4 Tie-breakers:
▪ The higher placer at each level earns the higher seed.
▪ If two or more wrestlers have identical place finishes, the wrestler returning at the same weight earns the higher seed. - What if a wrestler drops a weight class? Are they being punished because they were forced up a weight due to a senior dropping the season prior?
▪ Previous year’s tournament place finish MUST have been at an OHSAA tournament.
▪ A returning placer can be from Division I, II, or III.
4
10.6.5 Won/Loss record (by percentage) from current season (minimum of 12 matches). - What if you have a head to head against someone at the same sectionals. You win, do you get the seed ahead of them?
▪ In the event of a tie in percentage, the wrestler with the most wins will receive the higher seed.
▪ If this does not break the tie, a coin-flip will determine the seed.
10.7 Seeding Meeting
▪ A seeding meeting may be held after wrestlers have been seeded by criteria.
▪ A coach may challenge a seed based on criteria and the coaches will then vote on the challenge. - Is there no discussion of head to heads and common opponents? What if both wrestlers were at a similar tournament and never saw each other, but has a lower percentage of wins, however placed ahead of the other wrestler.

Not trying to start a peeing match among people, but looking for clarification.

How does everyone run their sectional seed meeting? In years past, we would meet the night prior and adjust they day of if someone did not make weight.

Just looking for clarification.
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  #2  
Old 02-13-18, 10:54 PM
FirestoneFan FirestoneFan is online now
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I see your beefs but I don't think they will come into play. This is the sectionals. Very seldom (but it does happen) that seeding will matter.

What if Johnny has wrestled a cupcake schedule and has I greater win percentage, but has lost to the district placer? According to this he gets seeded above the district placer.
20 wins.
The best wrestler at the sectional will win. Does it matter if he is #1 or #2?

What if a wrestler drops a weight class? Are they being punished because they were forced up a weight due to a senior dropping the season prior?
Same weight matters. As far as seeding. If The kid is that good will it matter?

I don't think there is a sectional seed meeting. All seeds are by criteria.
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  #3  
Old 02-14-18, 02:46 AM
FirestoneFan FirestoneFan is online now
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Place in your sectional and then see if you can become a state qualifier.
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  #4  
Old 02-14-18, 03:00 AM
wash.c.h.legend wash.c.h.legend is offline
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Seeding Criteria at Sectionals

Common opponents has no bearing and has not at our sectional since the change. The rules as stated has been followed.
Higher placement in the same tournament at the same weight does warrant a vote.


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  #5  
Old 02-14-18, 06:40 AM
td2fall td2fall is offline
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just wrestle
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  #6  
Old 02-14-18, 11:38 AM
white_chocolate white_chocolate is offline
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I think current year head to head should hold more weight than past season's performance or winning percentage. Winning percentage can hurt a kid based on another team having a weaker schedule. Past year performance doesn't give credit to kids that improve over the past year.

And I think seeding is absolutely important at Sectionals. Some weights can have multiple good kids. Also it makes a huge difference when it comes to your draw on the District bracket based on your Sectional place.
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Old 02-14-18, 12:02 PM
Rankman55 Rankman55 is offline
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They use to count Junior High State Placement at one time is that still considered?
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  #8  
Old 02-14-18, 12:51 PM
miketyson miketyson is offline
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this happens

every year when firestone used to take 5 qualifiers you would often see sectional seeding become an issue. Now that the teams are distributed evenly you barely see full brackets. A head to head seeding meeting is very unnecessary and not worth the time to go through who beat who head to head. The cream rises to the top as they say!
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  #9  
Old 02-14-18, 01:02 PM
vikes vikes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
every year when firestone used to take 5 qualifiers you would often see sectional seeding become an issue. Now that the teams are distributed evenly you barely see full brackets. A head to head seeding meeting is very unnecessary and not worth the time to go through who beat who head to head. The cream rises to the top as they say!
Some kids put a lot of time and effort into this sport the lease we could do is hold a seed meeting to make sure they are put in the right spots.
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  #10  
Old 02-14-18, 01:20 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Proper seeding is essential. Without it those who advance may not be the best 4 just those who got the best draw. Imagine 1-4 are on the same side of the bracket. 1 gets 2 and 3 gets 4 in the first round. 2 knocks out 4 in the consi-quarters and 3 in the consi-semis. You end up with 1st, 5th(2nd place), 2nd(3rd place), and 6th(4th place).

1st will always end up in 1st and 2nd will always end up in either 2nd or 3rd. The real concern is ensuring that 3rd ends up in 2nd or 3rd and 4th gets 4th. The whole purpose of seeding is to ensure that the right wrestlers progress so that we have the best 16 at district and not just the 16 that got the best seeds.

For the little bit of extra effort it takes on the part of the coaches to complete a seeding meeting it will help to ensure that something stupid like the above scenario doesn't happen.
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  #11  
Old 02-14-18, 02:52 PM
white_chocolate white_chocolate is offline
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I agree, I think it is pure laziness on the coaches part to not want to due a seed meeting. Your wrestlers deserve a couple hours of your time after all they did for you all year long.
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Old 02-14-18, 02:57 PM
speedthatkills speedthatkills is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
every year when firestone used to take 5 qualifiers you would often see sectional seeding become an issue. Now that the teams are distributed evenly you barely see full brackets. A head to head seeding meeting is very unnecessary and not worth the time to go through who beat who head to head. The cream rises to the top as they say!
Am I understanding this correct? Based on your comments you are in favor of a random draw? The cream should rise to the top after all.

For the record, I am not in favor of this. You will have kids that wrestled a brutal schedule, went to state duals, etc and likely have more losses and possibly not get seeded vs another kid that wrestled tons of B tournaments with a very good record and have an easy path. This would in turn screw up the districts. Of course, you will have kids that still come through and you will have others that get shafted. I am in favor of doing it correctly, not dismissing it because of time and because it takes a little extra effort. If that is the concern you should not be in coaching. Most of the time the coaches know exactly who should be seeded where. A seed meeting allows for corrections to a flawed black and white numbers system.
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Old 02-14-18, 03:33 PM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white_chocolate View Post
I agree, I think it is pure laziness on the coaches part to not want to due a seed meeting. Your wrestlers deserve a couple hours of your time after all they did for you all year long.
With the guidelines the way they are, a seeding meeting is just going over the criteria. This can be done in 10 minutes. No need for a 3 hour meeting when the district board makes the rules. It has nothing to do with laziness or want... the district says it is criteria only.
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Old 02-14-18, 06:39 PM
white_chocolate white_chocolate is offline
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Every Sectional I have coached in, they still end up doing the seed meeting every year in order to clear up any seeds that need to be adjusted due to the criteria not being right for who is truly the better wrestler on paper. Everywhere I have been the coaches still have used common sense to get it right.
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Old 02-14-18, 06:51 PM
Cramer Cramer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white_chocolate View Post
Every Sectional I have coached in, they still end up doing the seed meeting every year in order to clear up any seeds that need to be adjusted due to the criteria not being right for who is truly the better wrestler on paper. Everywhere I have been the coaches still have used common sense to get it right.
Correct, you still have a meeting after weigh ins to do challenges and such. This criteria base just speeds things up and then after the seeds it's random draw. The other thing criteria does is it takes away challenges for the sake of challenging, "He's a good kid, has good grades, benches 300lbs, this is why my guy should be the #1 seed."

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  #16  
Old 02-14-18, 07:32 PM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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You must have not been in the northeast.
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  #17  
Old 02-14-18, 07:39 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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While I agree fully that seeding needs to happen... I also think they need to ensure that each sectional feeding into a district is divided equally. Just my two cents.


Coach Root
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  #18  
Old 02-14-18, 08:09 PM
speedthatkills speedthatkills is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white_chocolate View Post
Every Sectional I have coached in, they still end up doing the seed meeting every year in order to clear up any seeds that need to be adjusted due to the criteria not being right for who is truly the better wrestler on paper. Everywhere I have been the coaches still have used common sense to get it right.
Ahhhh, common sense, that should be part of the criteria as well. lol
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  #19  
Old 02-14-18, 09:40 PM
Coach Maffey Coach Maffey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
While I agree fully that seeding needs to happen... I also think they need to ensure that each sectional feeding into a district is divided equally. Just my two cents.


Coach Root
No

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  #20  
Old 02-14-18, 10:30 PM
Iroquois Iroquois is offline
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Good topic with some interesting input.

As long as the coaches meet after weigh-ins, then things should be settled. Usually the coaches know who the better wrestler is, but that’s not 100% of the time.

Coaches have to fight for their wrestler if they feel like he is being screwed. The worst thing a coach can do is say it's only the sectional, he should make it out...But we all know every year especially at D1 there is one sectional that has a crazy loaded weight class with five guys and someone isn't making it out. If that’s happens the draw and seeding is huge.
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  #21  
Old 02-14-18, 11:14 PM
roughedge roughedge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
While I agree fully that seeding needs to happen... I also think they need to ensure that each sectional feeding into a district is divided equally. Just my two cents.


Coach Root
You must be talking about how the northern districts seem to always be unbalanced. Ed's, Brecksville, and Elyria in same district. At least they didn't add Wadsworth like a few years ago with these three.
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  #22  
Old 02-15-18, 07:41 AM
darthmalice darthmalice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
While I agree fully that seeding needs to happen... I also think they need to ensure that each sectional feeding into a district is divided equally. Just my two cents.


Coach Root
Can the coaches vote to combine 2 sectionals? Like the 2 Dayton sectionals and the 2 Cincinnati combine and top 8 of each move on to districts for the Kettering district.

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  #23  
Old 02-15-18, 08:05 AM
Coach JDean Coach JDean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthmalice View Post
Can the coaches vote to combine 2 sectionals? Like the 2 Dayton sectionals and the 2 Cincinnati combine and top 8 of each move on to districts for the Kettering district.

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That might make too much sense Darth!

I know the Coaches at the Hamilton Sectional for the last 4 years have always just ran a straight seed meeting and tried to do what's best for kids. The criteria was used as a baseline to start out and to get names on the board and then we went from there. Still not the most fair because you have your coaches who stick and vote together with their friends or you get coaches who are better lawyers than others and can make a stronger argument even though you may have the better kid. Some coaches are even having conversations while coaches are talking about their kids and not paying attention. I'm not sure what the best way is, but welcome suggestions.
A Super Sectional where the top 8 go to Districts might solve a lot of seeding issues. If you can't place in the top 8 out of about 25 teams then maybe you didn't deserve to go.

Last edited by Coach JDean; 02-15-18 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 02-15-18, 08:12 AM
TheStuff142 TheStuff142 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
While I agree fully that seeding needs to happen... I also think they need to ensure that each sectional feeding into a district is divided equally. Just my two cents.


Coach Root
How would you propose this? Super Sectional Draw...you KNOW this is not going to happen.
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Old 02-15-18, 08:22 AM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach JDean View Post
That might make too much sense Darth!

I know the Coaches at the Hamilton Sectional for the last 4 years have always just ran a straight seed meeting and tried to do what's best for kids. The criteria was used as a baseline to start out and to get names on the board and then we went from there. Still not the most fair because you have your coaches who stick and vote together with their friends or you get coaches who are better lawyers than others and can make a stronger argument even though you may have the better kid. Some coaches are even having conversations while coaches are talking about their kids and not paying attention. I'm not sure what the best way is, but welcome suggestions.
A Super Sectional where the top 8 go to Districts might solve a lot of seeding issues. If you can't place in the top 8 out of about 25 teams then maybe you didn't deserve to go.
We have been told for the last 5 years or so that there is no vote. The criteria makes the seeds, the only thing we can challenge is the criteria.

I would rather have a seeding meeting, but we have been told it is straight criteria with no variance.

I agree it should be done the same across the state.
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Old 02-15-18, 08:47 AM
Coach JDean Coach JDean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suplex21 View Post
We have been told for the last 5 years or so that there is no vote. The criteria makes the seeds, the only thing we can challenge is the criteria.

I would rather have a seeding meeting, but we have been told it is straight criteria with no variance.

I agree it should be done the same across the state.
Here is the loop hole they found which led to a seed meeting: Pretty sure we had a coaches challenge at every weight! LOL

10.7 Seeding Meeting
▪ A seeding meeting may be held after wrestlers have been seeded by criteria.
▪ A coach may challenge a seed based on criteria and the coaches will then vote on the challenge.
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Old 02-15-18, 12:39 PM
CoachHoon CoachHoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach JDean View Post
Here is the loop hole they found which led to a seed meeting: Pretty sure we had a coaches challenge at every weight! LOL

10.7 Seeding Meeting
▪ A seeding meeting may be held after wrestlers have been seeded by criteria.
▪ A coach may challenge a seed based on criteria and the coaches will then vote on the challenge.
I read this as you can only challenge the seed, based on the criteria, not that you can argue for your kid. Meaning, you can challenge a kid's record or his placement in the previous year. Which means the seeded kid's coach must produce the record or placement. I guess that's where a coma or two may be vital.
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Old 02-15-18, 12:51 PM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedthatkills View Post
Am I understanding this correct? Based on your comments you are in favor of a random draw? The cream should rise to the top after all.

For the record, I am not in favor of this. You will have kids that wrestled a brutal schedule, went to state duals, etc and likely have more losses and possibly not get seeded vs another kid that wrestled tons of B tournaments with a very good record and have an easy path. This would in turn screw up the districts. Of course, you will have kids that still come through and you will have others that get shafted. I am in favor of doing it correctly, not dismissing it because of time and because it takes a little extra effort. If that is the concern you should not be in coaching. Most of the time the coaches know exactly who should be seeded where. A seed meeting allows for corrections to a flawed black and white numbers system.

Are you even allowed to use the wins in JV/B tournaments? I didn't see anything about it in the rules, but I wouldn't think you could use wins there for sectional seeding purposes.
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Old 02-15-18, 12:58 PM
CoachHoon CoachHoon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OL_Coach View Post
Just looking for some info.

With the criteria list on OHSAA, is this just a starting point?

10.6 Seeding Criteria:
10.6.1 Returning state placer (1-3) at any weight class
10.6.2 Returning state placer (4-8) at any weight class. A “New” (Freshman or upperclassman that was not a contender last year) wrestler that has more than 25 wins and has defeated a wrestler listed above him on the list and has a higher winning percentage will be seeded above the returning state place winner at any weight class
(4-8). *The coach must e-mail the credentials to the manager.
10.6.3 Returning district placer (1-6) at any weight class. A “New” (Freshman or upperclassman that was not a contender last year) wrestler that has more than 20 wins and has a higher winning percentage than the returning district place winner will be seeded above the returning district place winner at any weight class (1-6). - What if Johnny has wrestled a cupcake schedule and has I greater win percentage, but has lost to the district placer? According to this he gets seeded above the district placer.

10.6.4 Tie-breakers:
▪ The higher placer at each level earns the higher seed.
▪ If two or more wrestlers have identical place finishes, the wrestler returning at the same weight earns the higher seed. - What if a wrestler drops a weight class? Are they being punished because they were forced up a weight due to a senior dropping the season prior?
▪ Previous year’s tournament place finish MUST have been at an OHSAA tournament.
▪ A returning placer can be from Division I, II, or III.
4
10.6.5 Won/Loss record (by percentage) from current season (minimum of 12 matches). - What if you have a head to head against someone at the same sectionals. You win, do you get the seed ahead of them?
▪ In the event of a tie in percentage, the wrestler with the most wins will receive the higher seed.
▪ If this does not break the tie, a coin-flip will determine the seed.
10.7 Seeding Meeting
▪ A seeding meeting may be held after wrestlers have been seeded by criteria.
▪ A coach may challenge a seed based on criteria and the coaches will then vote on the challenge. - Is there no discussion of head to heads and common opponents? What if both wrestlers were at a similar tournament and never saw each other, but has a lower percentage of wins, however placed ahead of the other wrestler.
Where can this be found on the OHSAA site?
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Old 02-15-18, 01:02 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Originally Posted by TheStuff142 View Post
How would you propose this? Super Sectional Draw...you KNOW this is not going to happen.
I can agree it won't likely happen... That doesn't mean it wouldn't be better for our district.


Coach Root
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