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  #91  
Old 06-29-17, 10:34 AM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
This guy gets it.
You share a subjective preference for a particular style of basketball and you want to impose it on everyone else by rule.

There's really not anything more to it than that, is there? Everything else is just an elaboration of why you have your particular subjective preference.
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  #92  
Old 06-29-17, 10:47 AM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I'd rather see the NFHS do what Minnesota has done. Go to 18 minute halves. The results of their decision to implement has achieved exactly what people in favor of the shot clock desire while retaining the ability for teams to be coached to their abilities.
I spend a lot of time in Minnesota and my basketball outings there leave me intensely homesick for Chicago (and even Ohio). They've had some great players but the overall quality of the basketball there is pretty bad. I'm sure it has a lot more to do with hockey siphoning off a lot of the best athletes than anything they've done with the rules, but if I were looking for a model of high school basketball MN wouldn't be my choice.
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  #93  
Old 06-29-17, 11:16 AM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by Perk Diggler View Post
I assume we all watch college ball and there are contrasting styles.
Not nearly as much as there was even ten years ago--the motion/continuity offense has left the building altogether. Even Michigan is running a high ball screen on 3/4 of their possessions now--they might open a possession in one of Beilein's sets but if it doesn't produce a shot in the first three or four passes they break it. And he's the last of the continuity-offense gurus still standing.
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  #94  
Old 06-29-17, 11:45 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
You share a subjective preference for a particular style of basketball and you want to impose it on everyone else by rule.

There's really not anything more to it than that, is there? Everything else is just an elaboration of why you have your particular subjective preference.
He gets it...as in, he gets my argument. Let me spell this out for you so you can understand:

There are numerous opinions just in this thread about the purpose of a shot clock in high school (especially Ohio):

1) It will create more scoring - not my argument - could or could not have this impact
2) It will prepare players for college - not my argument - this is really reaching, and IMO a terrible purpose for doing it
3) It will allow for better tempo/continuity of game play by limiting coach control of games and player movement (aka stalling) - my argument

Would this lead to more scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter. Would this lead to less scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter.

What is does do is allows the players to decide the games. It eliminates the coach-controlled tempo that no one (not even the players) can stand.

A shot clock isn't a magic instrument that automatically turns players/teams into offensive or defensive juggernauts (although strategies can certainly be devised for both). It's a tool to improve game tempo and provide a more pronounced purpose on both ends of the floor. That improves the game.
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  #95  
Old 06-29-17, 11:48 AM
TriangleMan TriangleMan is offline
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GCL fan lingo: coach-controlled tempo
Rest-of-the-State lingo: comfortable working/waiting for a good shot opportunity because of your team's talent level compared to your opponent's

Last edited by TriangleMan; 06-29-17 at 12:06 PM.
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  #96  
Old 06-29-17, 12:04 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
3) It will allow for better tempo/continuity of game play by limiting coach control of games and player movement (aka stalling) - my argument

Would this lead to more scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter. Would this lead to less scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter.

What is does do is allows the players to decide the games. It eliminates the coach-controlled tempo that no one (not even the players) can stand.
This is where we disagree. I think watching a solidly coached game is a great thing. I've seen many games where an opponent has decidedly better basketball players but the other team buys in to what the coach is teaching and defeats them with greater team play. Sometimes this can be a slow tempo offense.

I know that you don't like the style that certain teams play. Personally, I hate watching teams that have a significantly taller center who keep passing the ball inside for easy baskets. It is by far the most boring style of basketball IMO but it's also the most effective. Interestingly, the only way to stop a dominating center like that is to have one of your own or a great coach that can make the team work together and be greater as a team than the sum of their parts.
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  #97  
Old 06-29-17, 12:15 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
With all due respect, your opinion is just that, an opinion. I've read your posts in this thread and you've made many arguments in favor of changing the shot clock, but none of them have been compelling. Others have made far more compelling reasons for not adding a shot clock.

If you want to take shots at me, that's fine but to throw it right back at you, it seems like you don't understand HS basketball. It's by far the most diverse basketball compared to any other level. You are really trying to make the argument that adding a shot clock would "create" more innovative offenses? Seriously? Taking away half the diversity of the game would stifle innovation. That's just common sense.

I'm assuming you've played HS basketball in the past but have you really understood it? Seems you want to take all the beauty out of the game and make it a cookie-cutter sport like the NBA. Sit back and relax. Ohio has a great system of basketball that is diverse and interesting. Sure, you may get frustrated watching a certain style of basketball but you should realize that the opposing players and opposing coaches are just as frustrated playing a style they are unfamiliar with.
We have another candidate for post of the year.
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  #98  
Old 06-29-17, 12:38 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I know that you don't like the style that certain teams play. Personally, I hate watching teams that have a significantly taller center who keep passing the ball inside for easy baskets. It is by far the most boring style of basketball IMO but it's also the most effective. Interestingly, the only way to stop a dominating center like that is to have one of your own or a great coach that can make the team work together and be greater as a team than the sum of their parts.
Or, the rules of the game could be changed (as is being proposed here) to help offset the advantage gained by a tall player. How about - No one over 6'3" allowed in the lane. Or maybe - Any players 3 inches or more taller than the opponents' tallest player can only play half of the game.

Seems pretty ridiculous doesn't it?
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  #99  
Old 06-29-17, 12:43 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
He gets it...as in, he gets my argument. Let me spell this out for you so you can understand:

There are numerous opinions just in this thread about the purpose of a shot clock in high school (especially Ohio):

1) It will create more scoring - not my argument - could or could not have this impact
2) It will prepare players for college - not my argument - this is really reaching, and IMO a terrible purpose for doing it
3) It will allow for better tempo/continuity of game play by limiting coach control of games and player movement (aka stalling) - my argument

Would this lead to more scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter. Would this lead to less scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter.

What is does do is allows the players to decide the games. It eliminates the coach-controlled tempo that no one (not even the players) can stand.

A shot clock isn't a magic instrument that automatically turns players/teams into offensive or defensive juggernauts (although strategies can certainly be devised for both). It's a tool to improve game tempo and provide a more pronounced purpose on both ends of the floor. That improves the game.
If you're wanting to see coaches having less control and players deciding games, maybe high school basketball isn't for you. You can find those kinds of games on any playground court in the state.
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  #100  
Old 06-29-17, 12:46 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
This is where we disagree. I think watching a solidly coached game is a great thing. I've seen many games where an opponent has decidedly better basketball players but the other team buys in to what the coach is teaching and defeats them with greater team play. Sometimes this can be a slow tempo offense.

I know that you don't like the style that certain teams play. Personally, I hate watching teams that have a significantly taller center who keep passing the ball inside for easy baskets. It is by far the most boring style of basketball IMO but it's also the most effective. Interestingly, the only way to stop a dominating center like that is to have one of your own or a great coach that can make the team work together and be greater as a team than the sum of their parts.
Huge difference between coaches doing what you describe and stalling. Stalling is pathetic. No other way to put it.

It's like flopping...there's a reason they're looking at that too. Is flopping good coaching...or bad for the game?

Flopping and stalling...bad for the game.
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  #101  
Old 06-29-17, 12:55 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Huge difference between coaches doing what you describe and stalling. Stalling is pathetic. No other way to put it.
I guess you have to define stalling. I've seen many different types of stalling in the past. A few examples:

1. Passing/dribbling around toward the end of the game to force the trailing team to foul.
2. Passing/dribbling/holding the ball for the last shot of the quarter.
3. Holding the ball at half court forcing the defense to come out and play rather than sitting back defending the basket.
4. Passing/dribbling the ball around to limit possessions and find the best possible shot.

The only one that is tough to watch, IMO, is holding the ball at half court with a zone defense. Both sides are to blame in that situation.
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  #102  
Old 06-29-17, 12:56 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
If you're wanting to see coaches having less control and players deciding games, maybe high school basketball isn't for you. You can find those kinds of games on any playground court in the state.
LOL...how dare I want the actual players on the court deciding the outcome. What's the point then?

Here with go with the playground analogy again.
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  #103  
Old 06-29-17, 01:00 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I guess you have to define stalling. I've seen many different types of stalling in the past. A few examples:

1. Passing/dribbling around toward the end of the game to force the trailing team to foul.
2. Passing/dribbling/holding the ball for the last shot of the quarter.
3. Holding the ball at half court forcing the defense to come out and play rather than sitting back defending the basket.
4. Passing/dribbling the ball around to limit possessions and find the best possible shot.

The only one that is tough to watch, IMO, is holding the ball at half court with a zone defense. Both sides are to blame in that situation.
1. That's not stalling, that's smart. This also allows for some unique strategies with a shot clock...so if you like coaching, there's plenty of it going on in these situations.
2. That's not stalling, that's smart...unless you start that hold with 2 minutes left, like I've seen done by LaSalle.
3. The Moeller way - stupid and gutless, especially with the best talent in Cincy
4. No issue here...but it shouldn't take minutes.

Last edited by trey2k; 06-29-17 at 01:12 PM.
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  #104  
Old 06-29-17, 01:19 PM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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Yappi....I think you are missing the point on a couple things here. First of all, Trey and I are not asking for one particular style of play (we just do not want stalling or slow down tactics). Teams can still play a slower pace with shot clock and run 30 seconds off each possession (just not 90 or 120 seconds anymore). Teams can go inside or shoot threes. They can run motion or use screens. Coaches can still play to their strengths, but players will have to make more decisions on the fly as when they run 25 seconds of offense and it breaks down then they have to just play basketball and get a shot in last 10 seconds of clock. With no clock, some coaches would pull the ball back out to half court and reset to run the coach's play resulting in the same kid getting all the shots and possessions lasting over a minute.

Secondly, your throw it into big guy scenario is totally different. Good teams take this away by attacking the guards before they pass or doubling the big guy, playing zone or pressing. Same with a great shooter....you face guard the kid and make someone else beat you. That is just basketball....shot clock or no shot clock.
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  #105  
Old 06-29-17, 01:30 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
It's like flopping...there's a reason they're looking at that too.
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with a concept or an opinion, but I do when those disagreements are based on falsehoods.....

Faking being fouled (flopping) has been on the books for well over 20 years. It's an unsporting foul (Rule 10-3-6f) that is to be penalized with a player technical Foul. It was last mentioned as a Point of Emphasis in 2004-2005.

"They" aren't looking at anything related to this.
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  #106  
Old 06-29-17, 01:35 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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If I recall correctly, the National Federation did a survey related to the desires of a shot clock.

Officials and Coaches were in favor of the clock, with each just over 70% in the affirmative.

Administrators were not in favor of the clock, with only about 36% in the affirmative.


Very Interesting..........
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  #107  
Old 06-29-17, 01:39 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I have no problem with someone disagreeing with a concept or an opinion, but I do when those disagreements are based on falsehoods.....

Faking being fouled (flopping) has been on the books for well over 20 years. It's an unsporting foul (Rule 10-3-6f) that is to be penalized with a player technical Foul. It was last mentioned as a Point of Emphasis in 2004-2005.

"They" aren't looking at anything related to this.
LOL...I have been to 5-10 high school basketball gamers per year for the last 10 years and have seen this called ZERO times. And I've seen a lot of flops.
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  #108  
Old 06-29-17, 01:52 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
LOL...I have been to 5-10 high school basketball gamers per year for the last 10 years and have seen this called ZERO times. And I've seen a lot of flops.
In all honesty, it doesn't matter what you see. If we went by what fans see, we'd have 20 three second calls a game when the ball is in flight during a try.

The fact that this hasn't been revisited as a POE in 13 or so years tells you that it's not a problem (nationally) brought up by coaches, officials, and administrators. Now, rough play in the post, contact with the dribbler, and intentional fouls continue to be a problem......

......and the reason why they continue to be stated POE's in recent (consecutive) years.
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  #109  
Old 06-29-17, 02:07 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
Yappi....I think you are missing the point on a couple things here. First of all, Trey and I are not asking for one particular style of play (we just do not want stalling or slow down tactics). Teams can still play a slower pace with shot clock and run 30 seconds off each possession (just not 90 or 120 seconds anymore). Teams can go inside or shoot threes. They can run motion or use screens. Coaches can still play to their strengths, but players will have to make more decisions on the fly as when they run 25 seconds of offense and it breaks down then they have to just play basketball and get a shot in last 10 seconds of clock. With no clock, some coaches would pull the ball back out to half court and reset to run the coach's play resulting in the same kid getting all the shots and possessions lasting over a minute.
I do get your point. Check out one of my first posts in this thread. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the game played both ways. I think it would be interesting to contrast the styles. I just don't think a shot clock is necessary. HS games are by far the most interesting of any level of basketball. Not sure if a shot clock would help or hurt the game and I don't want to take that risk of ruining the best level for a drastic change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
Secondly, your throw it into big guy scenario is totally different. Good teams take this away by attacking the guards before they pass or doubling the big guy, playing zone or pressing. Same with a great shooter....you face guard the kid and make someone else beat you. That is just basketball....shot clock or no shot clock.
That's all true but it doesn't change the fact that if the team with the tall center is able to get those shots off, it's a significant advantage and a boring game.
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  #110  
Old 06-29-17, 02:24 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
3) It will allow for better tempo/continuity of game play by limiting coach control of games and player movement (aka stalling) - my argument

Would this lead to more scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter. Would this lead to less scoring? Who cares - doesn't matter.

What is does do is allows the players to decide the games. It eliminates the coach-controlled tempo that no one (not even the players) can stand.


"no one," meaning you. What you seem to be looking for is your personal stamp based upon your desires and that of whatever narrow slice of the population you hang out with. You've not made a case for "better" sport. You've only made a case for YOUR sport.

Simply, if the local people don't like the brand of ball, the coach and the AD are the first to hear about it. If there's ball being played a style YOU don't like, it's most likely because someone else does. Who is anyone to dictate that for others, is that really the purpose of rules?

In removing or limiting the effect of the teacher, you ARE describing playground ball. Are you proposing to remove coaches in football, baseball and the other sports? If not, why not? It would be consistent with your stated philosophy, wouldn't it? You can describe the brand you desire as "better tempo/continuity" but that's just you making up a personal definition for the words, not actual definitions.

Every post you've had from the first has made clear, your interest is your personal entertainment. That's not what the game is for, what it's meant to teach.

Shot clock DOES dumb down the game by removing way more strategies than it adds, by limiting participation to someone else's definition of how to get the ball to the basket. It's like playing chess after removing the pawns and the knights, the "thinkers, and the team players.

All the game is supposed to be is PUT the ball in the basket. Adding more rules limiting how to get it there and limiting the means to prevent it from getting there are unnecessary and as others have mentioned, cost with no return. There's something to learn when the opponent won't play as you wish them to. The job is to make them play the way you want them to, or to beat them at their own game. Their job is the same. Some can't handle the difficult job and need to politic to make it easier I guess.

No one is trying to instill a rule limiting how fast a team can score. Run all you want. If you're pizzed your kids can't steal the ball from a stall, teach them better defense. A stall, ball control, patience is a difficult thing to teach and a difficult thing to implement but it is the tactics that succeeds in real life, skills that lead to successful business leaders. They have to be prepared to play against those operating under different philosophy. The bigger gun doesn't beat the better strategy.
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  #111  
Old 06-29-17, 02:29 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
"no one," meaning you. What you seem to be looking for is your personal stamp based upon your desires and that of whatever narrow slice of the population you hang out with. Not "better" sport. YOU're sport.

In removing or limiting the effect of the teacher, you ARE describing playground ball. Are you proposing to remove coaches in football, baseball and the other sports? If not, why not? It would be consistent with your stated philosophy? You're not talking about "better" ball. You can describe the brand you desire as "better flow" but that's just you making up a personal definition for the words, not actual definitions.

Simply, if the local people don't like the brand of ball, the coach and the AD are the first to hear about it. If there's ball being played a style YOU don't like, it's most likely because someone else does. Who is anyone to dictate that for others?



Every post you've had from the first has made clear, your interest is your personal entertainment. That's not what the game is for, what it's meant to teach.

Shot clock DOES dumb down the game by removing way more strategies than it adds, by limiting participation to someone else's definition of how to get the ball to the basket. It's like playing chess after removing the pawns and the knights, the "thinkers, and the team players.

All the game is supposed to be is PUT the ball in the basket. Adding more rules limiting how to get it there and limiting the means to prevent it from getting there are unnecessary and as others have mentioned, cost with no return..

No one is trying to instill a rule limiting how fast a team can score. If you're pizzed your kids can't steal the ball from a stall, teach them better defense.

There's something to learn when the opponent won't play as you wish them to. The job is to make them play the way you want them to, or to beat them at their own game. Their job is the same. Some can't handle the difficult job and need to politic to make it easier I guess.
I'm not re-explaining myself. I never once said we should get rid of coaches or any of the other ramblings you went on. No clue where you got any of that from.

You sir, don't get it.

You're making tremendous leaps and attributing them to me...and I simply never stated the things you said I did.

I said a shot clock would eliminate coaches stalling...and it would. Nothing more, nothing less. Coaches still coach, players still play.

Comprehension is hard.
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  #112  
Old 06-29-17, 03:07 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
All the game is supposed to be is PUT the ball in the basket.
I have to disagree slightly with this. The goal is to have more points than the other team at the end of the game. Or, in other words, to ensure the other team has fewer points than your team.

Only one point is required for a win in basketball.
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  #113  
Old 06-29-17, 03:47 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I guess you have to define stalling.
He did define stalling, explicitly, as "coach control of games and player movement (aka stalling)."
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  #114  
Old 06-29-17, 03:51 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
He did define stalling, explicitly, as "coach control of games and player movement (aka stalling)."
And I came up with 4 examples of "coach control of games and player movement" and he said that two of them were not stalling. I would call that definition ambiguous rather than explicit.
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  #115  
Old 06-29-17, 07:11 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
I have to disagree slightly with this. The goal is to have more points than the other team at the end of the game. Or, in other words, to ensure the other team has fewer points than your team.

Only one point is required for a win in basketball.
I agree, that's better.
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  #116  
Old 06-30-17, 03:33 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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ESPN article makes a good case for "first to 15, win by 2." Playgrounders happy. No shot clockers happy. No more long drawn out foul contests at the end of games... I think they might even add, "call your own fouls" so the players can even better control "the flow" of the game.
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  #117  
Old 06-30-17, 08:31 AM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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I give up....let's never change anything. Better yet let's go back to the peach baskets for hoops and have a jump ball after every score. Ticket sales for the state finals will continue to plummet and the scores will be 4-2 and some on this forum will love it!!
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  #118  
Old 06-30-17, 08:40 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
I give up....let's never change anything. Better yet let's go back to the peach baskets for hoops and have a jump ball after every score. Ticket sales for the state finals will continue to plummet and the scores will be 4-2 and some on this forum will love it!!
Lol.

So (plenty of) posters oppose your opinion, use factual data to back it up, and you accuse them of wanting to go back to peach baskets. Makes sense.
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  #119  
Old 06-30-17, 09:17 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
Lol.

So (plenty of) posters oppose your opinion, use factual data to back it up, and you accuse them of wanting to go back to peach baskets. Makes sense.
People oppose the opinion that a shot clock will eliminate stalling?

Not sure how you can oppose that, because that's exactly what it would do.

What are we missing here?

All of this "it will increase scoring", or "it will better prepare players for college", or "it will provide the defense an advantage" weren't claimed by us. We said a shot clock would eliminate stall ball....and it will.

All of you other people make these outrageous leaps and attributed them to us.
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  #120  
Old 06-30-17, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
Lol.

So (plenty of) posters oppose your opinion, use factual data to back it up, and you accuse them of wanting to go back to peach baskets. Makes sense.
Let's start with every level of basketball above HS uses some sort of a shot clock with more state associations adding a shot clock and none deciding to get rid of it, that is a a fact. Why is there no out cry from NCAA Division 1 coaches to drop it so that they can get back to a more pure game as those that oppose it here claim?

Here is my suggestion, let's start with a shot clock for the playoffs only and let the OHSAA help fund it by supplying the hardware to the various gyms and use an official to operate it. That eliminates the cost factor and personnel excuse. Let's see how the games progress and then ask the coaches and players what they think. A test never hurt anyone and the players will adjust fine as the cream always rises to the top and the better teams will still beat the weaker teams.
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