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  #61  
Old 06-28-17, 10:22 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I did a little more digging and found that the most recent statistical analysis of states with the clock versus states without the clock shows that states without the clock average 3 points more per game than states with the clock. (a 2013-2014 survey versus the 2008 survey I cited prior)

If the clock is good for the overall game (entertainment), why is scoring down in those states?
Who ever said the point was to increase scoring? I know I never said that. The point is to relinquish so much control by the coaches and let the kids play. Quit stalling. It's terrible basketball.

Putting in a shot clock would force coaches to coach within that constraint. I think it would actually open up alot more innovative offense, but it would force coaches to completely change gameplans. Cream of the crop coaches would really rise to the top.

It also does more to develop players, which is just as important. Puts more control in the player's hands, where it should be. Way too dictated by micro-managing every second of every possession. Terrible.

When Moeller is winning, they spread the floor and their point guard holds the ball. The form an X in the half court set, and they play keep-away. This, with the best talent in the city. LaSalle does similar stall tactics.
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  #62  
Old 06-28-17, 10:33 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Makes you wonder if the shot clock just turns into holding the ball until the end of a shot clock and forcing a hurried up shot (we've seen LeBron do this MANY times in the NBA).

With the shot clock, the defense can just sit back and wait for the clock to run out instead of attacking the dribbler because they know that they will be getting the ball back shortly.

It would be interesting to see the shooting percentages of states with shot clocks versus those without.
With all due respect, this is terrible basketball analysis. Have you ever played the game? Ever?

Why on earth would offenses want to wait until the last second to throw up a shot? They would do all they could to avoid that...but in situations where it's needed, it's nice to have 1-2 guys that can create a reasonable look under that pressure.

I mean this seriously...has anyone in the forum ever played organized basketball? Some of the takes on here are ridiculous. Starting to think this forum is loaded with SuperFans.
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  #63  
Old 06-28-17, 10:55 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
With all due respect, this is terrible basketball analysis. Have you ever played the game? Ever?

Why on earth would offenses want to wait until the last second to throw up a shot? They would do all they could to avoid that...but in situations where it's needed, it's nice to have 1-2 guys that can create a reasonable look under that pressure.

I mean this seriously...has anyone in the forum ever played organized basketball? Some of the takes on here are ridiculous. Starting to think this forum is loaded with SuperFans.
With all due respect, your opinion is just that, an opinion. I've read your posts in this thread and you've made many arguments in favor of changing the shot clock, but none of them have been compelling. Others have made far more compelling reasons for not adding a shot clock.

If you want to take shots at me, that's fine but to throw it right back at you, it seems like you don't understand HS basketball. It's by far the most diverse basketball compared to any other level. You are really trying to make the argument that adding a shot clock would "create" more innovative offenses? Seriously? Taking away half the diversity of the game would stifle innovation. That's just common sense.

I'm assuming you've played HS basketball in the past but have you really understood it? Seems you want to take all the beauty out of the game and make it a cookie-cutter sport like the NBA. Sit back and relax. Ohio has a great system of basketball that is diverse and interesting. Sure, you may get frustrated watching a certain style of basketball but you should realize that the opposing players and opposing coaches are just as frustrated playing a style they are unfamiliar with.
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  #64  
Old 06-28-17, 10:57 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
With all due respect, this is terrible basketball analysis. Have you ever played the game? Ever?

Why on earth would offenses want to wait until the last second to throw up a shot? They would do all they could to avoid that...but in situations where it's needed, it's nice to have 1-2 guys that can create a reasonable look under that pressure.

I mean this seriously...has anyone in the forum ever played organized basketball? Some of the takes on here are ridiculous. Starting to think this forum is loaded with SuperFans.
If teams are stalling, (they aren't, you are using a miniscule sample as the norm) they aren't scoring.......... no shots, no scores........

Why aren't the teams that aren't allowed to stall scoring more? Where's this development you speak of?
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  #65  
Old 06-28-17, 11:03 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
With all due respect, your opinion is just that, an opinion. I've read your posts in this thread and you've made many arguments in favor of changing the shot clock, but none of them have been compelling. Others have made far more compelling reasons for not adding a shot clock.

If you want to take shots at me, that's fine but to throw it right back at you, it seems like you don't understand HS basketball. It's by far the most diverse basketball compared to any other level. You are really trying to make the argument that adding a shot clock would "create" more innovative offenses? Seriously? Taking away half the diversity of the game would stifle innovation. That's just common sense.

I'm assuming you've played HS basketball in the past but have you really understood it? Seems you want to take all the beauty out of the game and make it a cookie-cutter sport like the NBA. Sit back and relax. Ohio has a great system of basketball that is diverse and interesting. Sure, you may get frustrated watching a certain style of basketball but you should realize that the opposing players and opposing coaches are just as frustrated playing a style they are unfamiliar with.
^^^^^^ This !!!
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  #66  
Old 06-28-17, 11:04 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
With all due respect, your opinion is just that, an opinion. I've read your posts in this thread and you've made many arguments in favor of changing the shot clock, but none of them have been compelling. Others have made far more compelling reasons for not adding a shot clock.

If you want to take shots at me, that's fine but to throw it right back at you, it seems like you don't understand HS basketball. It's by far the most diverse basketball compared to any other level. You are really trying to make the argument that adding a shot clock would "create" more innovative offenses? Seriously? Taking away half the diversity of the game would stifle innovation. That's just common sense.

I'm assuming you've played HS basketball in the past but have you really understood it? Seems you want to take all the beauty out of the game and make it a cookie-cutter sport like the NBA. Sit back and relax. Ohio has a great system of basketball that is diverse and interesting. Sure, you may get frustrated watching a certain style of basketball but you should realize that the opposing players and opposing coaches are just as frustrated playing a style they are unfamiliar with.
"Taking away half the diversity of the game would stifle innovation." What does that even mean?

"Take all the beauty out of the game" - as I said, my frame of reference is the GCL...and there ain't much beauty there. The kids play their butts off, but the overall skill level is lacking comparatively (outside of Moeller, which is basically a prep school).
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  #67  
Old 06-28-17, 11:10 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
If teams are stalling, (they aren't, you are using a miniscule sample as the norm) they aren't scoring..........

Why aren't the teams that aren't allowed to stall scoring more? Where's this development you speak of?
Once again, as I've stated multiple times, and have been specifically asked about, the frame of reference are the games I watch in the GCL.

You're right, if teams are stalling, they aren't scoring. But neither is the other team. Not sure of your point here.

When did I ever equate shot clock to more scoring? Did you not read my last post? You keep bringing that up, yet it has nothing to do with what I've posted.
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  #68  
Old 06-28-17, 11:10 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
"Taking away half the diversity of the game would stifle innovation." What does that even mean?

"Take all the beauty out of the game" - as I said, my frame of reference is the GCL...and there ain't much beauty there. The kids play their off, but the overall skill level is lacking comparatively (outside of Moeller, which is basically a prep school).
The GCL teams play 88 regular season games.

The rest of the state plays 17,490 regular season games.

Do the math as to why this isn't a problem.
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  #69  
Old 06-28-17, 11:12 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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There have been several people state the Ohio state tournament this year was filled with stalling. I guess that means nothing.
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  #70  
Old 06-28-17, 11:13 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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In the big picture, it does not.

It's teams being coached in a way that gives them the best opportunity to win a state championship.
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  #71  
Old 06-28-17, 11:15 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
"Taking away half the diversity of the game would stifle innovation." What does that even mean?
I've watched games at the district level where a coach comes in and runs the other team off the floor. The very next game, that same team comes in and slows down the game and keeps both teams under 40 points. Only one of those styles would would work with a shot clock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
"Take all the beauty out of the game" - as I said, my frame of reference is the GCL...and there ain't much beauty there. The kids play their off, but the overall skill level is lacking comparatively (outside of Moeller, which is basically a prep school).
I've watched the GCL games in the past, they are an aggressive, physical league that plays hard the whole game. That doesn't necessarily mean they are a fast paced offensive team. It's a winning formula that frustrates their opponents.

I really enjoy watching teams from all over the state. I can appreciate the teams that play fast paced the whole game and don't really care if the other team gets a few easy buckets because they know they will outscore them. I also like watching teams that never give up an easy basket. They might give up a few offensive rebounds by getting back on defense to make sure no fast breaks occur. The zone teams, trapping teams, man-to-man defenses, I enjoy them all. Watching a 3-point team, a transition team, or a team that works it inside are all fun to watch.

There is tremendous diversity in Ohio with all forms of basketball. What you call over-coaching is what I call great coaching. If you can take a team and make them score more than the opponent, you are doing a great job. I can be on the edge of my seat watching a 36-34 game just as much as watching a 96-94 game.
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  #72  
Old 06-28-17, 11:17 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
When did I ever equate shot clock to more scoring? Did you not read my last post? You keep bringing that up, yet it has nothing to do with what I've posted.
Here....

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post

Putting in a shot clock would force coaches to coach within that constraint. I think it would actually open up alot more innovative offense,
and here.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
It also does more to develop players, which is just as important. .
That is unless I totally misunderstand what opening up more innovative offenses means.
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  #73  
Old 06-28-17, 11:17 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Very first article I came across in a Google search about shot clocks in high school. Directly down my line of thinking...and these are quotes from COACHES. Has nothing to do with more points.

http://cfoa.com/basketball/shot-clock-article.php
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  #74  
Old 06-28-17, 11:22 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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An innovative offense doesn't necessarily mean you score more. Why does innovative equal more scoring? There are plenty of very innovative offenses that can be efficient in the 25-35 second timeframe, and still have games int he same scoring zone. Innovation and scoring are not always positively correlated.

And again, the development of players is around giving them more skills to score independently WHEN THEY HAVE TO. No one is saying just give a kid the ball and let him go LaMelo Ball on everyone.
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  #75  
Old 06-28-17, 11:32 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
An innovative offense doesn't necessarily mean you score more. Why does innovative equal more scoring? There are plenty of very innovative offenses that can be efficient in the 25-35 second timeframe, and still have games int he same scoring zone. Innovation and scoring are not always positively correlated.
That absolutely makes zero sense to me. (someone who has played and officiated for over 50 years)
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  #76  
Old 06-28-17, 11:35 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
That absolutely makes zero sense to me, someone who has played and officiated for over 50 years.
Do you know what innovative means?
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  #77  
Old 06-28-17, 11:40 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Do you know what innovative means?
I own my own business.......

If someone came to me pitching a process that was innovative to the way I did things, then told me the results would be the same or worse....

He'd be out on his backside before the first laugh in the room was audible.

Why would anyone expend time and effort on a new method, yet only to produce the same result? (or worse)
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  #78  
Old 06-29-17, 06:59 AM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I've watched games at the district level where a coach comes in and runs the other team off the floor. The very next game, that same team comes in and slows down the game and keeps both teams under 40 points. Only one of those styles would would work with a shot clock.



I've watched the GCL games in the past, they are an aggressive, physical league that plays hard the whole game. That doesn't necessarily mean they are a fast paced offensive team. It's a winning formula that frustrates their opponents.

I really enjoy watching teams from all over the state. I can appreciate the teams that play fast paced the whole game and don't really care if the other team gets a few easy buckets because they know they will outscore them. I also like watching teams that never give up an easy basket. They might give up a few offensive rebounds by getting back on defense to make sure no fast breaks occur. The zone teams, trapping teams, man-to-man defenses, I enjoy them all. Watching a 3-point team, a transition team, or a team that works it inside are all fun to watch.

There is tremendous diversity in Ohio with all forms of basketball. What you call over-coaching is what I call great coaching. If you can take a team and make them score more than the opponent, you are doing a great job. I can be on the edge of my seat watching a 36-34 game just as much as watching a 96-94 game.
Great coaching is not holding onto the ball, many teams can do that, fortunately most teams don't but their are a few coaches that do because they have to have complete control over the game instead of letting the players decide the game. Once again the game is called basketball the goal is to put the ball in the basket not to see how long you can hold onto the ball to keep the score low.

Last edited by Stirred not Shaken; 06-29-17 at 07:24 AM.
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  #79  
Old 06-29-17, 07:08 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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So should we use the shot clock in middle school girls games? Middle school boys? Only boys? Same rules have to apply at all levels and genders, no?

This is why a shot clock is such a bad idea on so many levels. There's too much bad basketball at the high school level and lower, and it will only make bad basketball even more insufferable.
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  #80  
Old 06-29-17, 07:33 AM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
So should we use the shot clock in middle school girls games? Middle school boys? Only boys? Same rules have to apply at all levels and genders, no?

This is why a shot clock is such a bad idea on so many levels. There's too much bad basketball at the high school level and lower, and it will only make bad basketball even more insufferable.
I agree their is a lot of "bad" basketball in H.S. that is why I am in favor of a shot clock to increase the tempo of the game. Also would be in favor of doing away with quarters and just play two halves too take away holding onto the ball at the end of the qt.
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  #81  
Old 06-29-17, 08:06 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
I agree their is a lot of "bad" basketball in H.S. that is why I am in favor of a shot clock to increase the tempo of the game. Also would be in favor of doing away with quarters and just play two halves too take away holding onto the ball at the end of the qt.
The tempo of the game and the quality of basketball are hardly, if at all, correlated. Bad teams will just force up even more bad shots that might miss the rim, and now there's a stoppage for a violation.

A shot clock will not make bad basketball good. Only better fundamentals will do that.
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  #82  
Old 06-29-17, 08:57 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I own my own business.......

If someone came to me pitching a process that was innovative to the way I did things, then told me the results would be the same or worse....

He'd be out on his backside before the first laugh in the room was audible.

Why would anyone expend time and effort on a new method, yet only to produce the same result? (or worse)
Scoring more points doesn't equal more winning. The name of the game is winning.

You can certainly be innovative and score more, the same, or less points. How you can't grasp this is beyond me.'

But wait...you own your own business.
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  #83  
Old 06-29-17, 09:16 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
But wait...you own your own business.
I was wondering how long it would take before you acted like you were arguing with that fool on the Elder forum.....


Save it for him.

Done
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  #84  
Old 06-29-17, 09:18 AM
BulldogBob BulldogBob is offline
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Originally Posted by borntopin View Post
It is long overdue in Ohio. Nothing worse as a fan trying to watch a game and one of the teams is up by 4 or more and starts to stall. I see it every year and my friends/family and I can't stand it. I have been wanting Ohio high school to have a shot clock for over 20 years.
Agreed!
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  #85  
Old 06-29-17, 09:23 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
I agree their is a lot of "bad" basketball in H.S. that is why I am in favor of a shot clock to increase the tempo of the game. Also would be in favor of doing away with quarters and just play two halves too take away holding onto the ball at the end of the qt.
The clock hasn't done anything to improve tempo.

I am in favor of going to halves...... however, I also understand the revamping of participation standards this creates for many state associations. (quarters played)

In the end, this is High School. We aren't talking about the top 5% of the athletes as in the collegiate ranks..... not the top 1% of the athletes in the professional ranks..... We're talking the 95%-99% of the kids that won't play past the age of 18......

Keep it simple for the vast disparity of the abilities that are involved.....

That's the mission of HS sports.
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  #86  
Old 06-29-17, 09:42 AM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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Trey2K, I know what you mean by innovative.....more ways to score, different ways to score, more kids possibly involved in taking shots. That is what shot clock could do. More coaches may be willing to run a bit more and try and get a quick, less-contested shot. Instead of 10 passes before we look at the basket, an open 15 footer may be encouraged. Ball may be entered into post earlier in a possession. Secondary fast break may be taught by a lot more coaches. Another good point you made was that players may control more of the game rather than some "control freak" coaches who dictate every possession by calling a set play where they control who shoots and from where. Players will actually have to learn spacing and successful teams will have more kids who can shoot it, pass it and dribble it. Oh and Zebra....no, it should not be implemented in jr high. But no reason hs girls cannot play with a shot clock. I know there is not a lot of overt "stalling" but there is a good amount of "shortening" the game or the quarter that would be eliminated by this. I watch mostly D3-D4 hoops and several of the teams we play have played a deliberate style for years where each team may only get 6 or 7 possessions per quarter. Players and fans do not look forward to these games...they much prefer the games where the pace is faster. Like it or not, kids want to play fast and shoot the ball and make plays at both ends.....not just throw the ball around the perimeter.
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  #87  
Old 06-29-17, 09:59 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I was wondering how long it would take before you acted like you were arguing with that fool on the Elder forum.....


Save it for him.

Done
Just odd that you threw that in there...it has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

It's an interesting debate...we don't agree.

Last edited by trey2k; 06-29-17 at 10:10 AM.
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  #88  
Old 06-29-17, 10:01 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
So should we use the shot clock in middle school girls games? Middle school boys? Only boys? Same rules have to apply at all levels and genders, no?
Um...no. Why would a high school shot clock mean it's necessary for middle school?

Why do people make these leaps? Who said anything about a middle school shot clock?
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  #89  
Old 06-29-17, 10:03 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
Trey2K, I know what you mean by innovative.....more ways to score, different ways to score, more kids possibly involved in taking shots. That is what shot clock could do. More coaches may be willing to run a bit more and try and get a quick, less-contested shot. Instead of 10 passes before we look at the basket, an open 15 footer may be encouraged. Ball may be entered into post earlier in a possession. Secondary fast break may be taught by a lot more coaches. Another good point you made was that players may control more of the game rather than some "control freak" coaches who dictate every possession by calling a set play where they control who shoots and from where. Players will actually have to learn spacing and successful teams will have more kids who can shoot it, pass it and dribble it. Oh and Zebra....no, it should not be implemented in jr high. But no reason hs girls cannot play with a shot clock. I know there is not a lot of overt "stalling" but there is a good amount of "shortening" the game or the quarter that would be eliminated by this. I watch mostly D3-D4 hoops and several of the teams we play have played a deliberate style for years where each team may only get 6 or 7 possessions per quarter. Players and fans do not look forward to these games...they much prefer the games where the pace is faster. Like it or not, kids want to play fast and shoot the ball and make plays at both ends.....not just throw the ball around the perimeter.
This guy gets it.
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  #90  
Old 06-29-17, 10:29 AM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by Perk Diggler View Post
This is a really good point!!! I actually like the idea of the shot clock though, as the learning curve to playing college ball lessens. Adjusting to playing with a shot clock is a big time adjustment.
I think that's a, maybe the, fundamental question here: should the principal purpose of high school basketball be the development of players for college ball?

My school's been a pretty average D2/D3 program. In 50 years I don't think we've had a single D1 basketball player graduate from the school (though we just had one transfer out). I can think of five that had decent D2 careers, one of whom played professionally in Europe for a while. There probably haven't been more than a dozen that played intercollegiate ball at any level, out of more than 300 varsity players.

Were those five players the point of the program for all those years? Or the other 295?
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