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  #31  
Old 06-26-17, 04:06 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow_Jacket06 View Post
The consistent argument in favor of a shot clock is that stalling is boring for fans. That shouldn't even be a factor in the decision. The objective of the game is to win, not entertain the masses. Fans are secondary especially at the HS level. A shot clock would do little but give already superior athletic teams even more of an advantage over the underdog who is trying to scratch and claw out a win.
Well said. I agree.
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  #32  
Old 06-26-17, 04:12 PM
adog adog is offline
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What I don't understand is why don't we go back to calling games the way they used to be called. Back in the late 70's early 80's scores were in the 70-80's consistently and this was before the 3 point shot. More schools had an inside/outside game and there was no "body" checking back then. If you played good D, that meant you faced your opponent and kept a hand in their face without touching them. Too much allowed now compared to back then as far as defense is concerned. No way am I saying hand checks should be called, but damn, you should not be able to body check an opponent, this isn't hockey.
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  #33  
Old 06-26-17, 05:10 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adog View Post
What I don't understand is why don't we go back to calling games the way they used to be called. Back in the late 70's early 80's scores were in the 70-80's consistently and this was before the 3 point shot. More schools had an inside/outside game and there was no "body" checking back then. If you played good D, that meant you faced your opponent and kept a hand in their face without touching them. Too much allowed now compared to back then as far as defense is concerned. No way am I saying hand checks should be called, but damn, you should not be able to body check an opponent, this isn't hockey.
Hand checking is illegal, and it's been called strictly since 2014-15 when the four "automatic" fouls came out. I can assure you that any official with a desire to work the postseason in Ohio penalizes hand checking.
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  #34  
Old 06-26-17, 06:55 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
Complaints from whom? I live about a mile from Moeller and I don't here any complaining in the community about the brand of basketball they play. And I sat in the Trotwood crowd three years ago and there wasn't any complaining there either. Moeller's style was a challenge; it was "how do we speed these guys up?" not "I wish we had a shot clock so they wouldn't be able to play this way."
You asked for a rationale. I gave you one.

I'd like to see a shot clock. I think it would improve the flow of games rather than take away from it. Didn't realize I needed a PowerPoint to prove my theory.

Go to a GCL forum...there have been complaints about the style of play for years.
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  #35  
Old 06-26-17, 07:00 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
You talk as if they don't have playgrounds in Cinci? This is what you seem (TO ME) to be looking for, b-ball that requires no knowledge by the players of a team game.

Scripted? What is your definition of that word as it pertains to games? You don't think the other coach and team has an opposition in mind? Is chess "scripted" to you, because it has plays? Are you sure YOU know what you're looking at? Or is it you do, just don't find it entertaining?
Not even close to what I said.

Everytime this comes up, everyone always thinks play making ability, shot making skills, and freedom to create means "play ground ball". For some reason, intelligent basketball players can't have this skill set...not sure why they can't, but everyone always infers those that have the skills to make something happen at the end of a shot clock are "playground players". No, the ones that play intelligently and are skilled enough to do these type of things are called complete basketball players.

I promise, it is allowed to have players that are well-rounded in many skills. The best teams have players that are threats on both ends of the floor, and aren't JUST defensive or shooting role players...much of what you see in the GCL outside of Moeller.

And FYI, Moeller really isn't a comparison. They are an all-star team of some of the best kids from the Cincy tri-state area. It's almost like a prep school for hoops. The other GCL schools don't run their programs that way (not saying there's anything wrong with it, but they're a step above the other GCL schools in hoops).

Last edited by trey2k; 06-26-17 at 07:29 PM.
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  #36  
Old 06-26-17, 08:03 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Not even close to what I said.

Everytime this comes up, everyone always thinks play making ability, shot making skills, and freedom to create means "play ground ball". For some reason, intelligent basketball players can't have this skill set...not sure why they can't, but everyone always infers those that have the skills to make something happen at the end of a shot clock are "playground players". No, the ones that play intelligently and are skilled enough to do these type of things are called complete basketball players.

I promise, it is allowed to have players that are well-rounded in many skills. The best teams have players that are threats on both ends of the floor, and aren't JUST defensive or shooting role players...much of what you see in the GCL outside of Moeller.

And FYI, Moeller really isn't a comparison. They are an all-star team of some of the best kids from the Cincy tri-state area. It's almost like a prep school for hoops. The other GCL schools don't run their programs that way (not saying there's anything wrong with it, but they're a step above the other GCL schools in hoops).
I don't think anyone has intimated restricting the game to those skills mean "play ground" ball or vise versa. I think what they're referring to is the lack of structure, planning and strategy of playground ball. And before anecdotes can be brought up, that IS what is played on most playgrounds most times. Suit up, choose sides, play the same game regardless opponent.

"Shot clock" moves strategy away from planning against a team and playing against another coach towards planning against whatever players the other team brings, coach be damned. The game can be played the same without shot clock, but not the same with it. It's like taking the teacher out of the English class. Al u gt is gabage.


Wouldn't a "complete" and "well-rounded" basketball player be one that triumphs against the more diverse set of opponents? Shot clock tells a losing team that it's okay you can't play defense, can't manage to steal a ball, we'll hand you a crutch.

"Shot clock" seems only to dumb down the game.
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  #37  
Old 06-26-17, 08:14 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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How does a shot clock take away from teams playing good defense? That makes zero sense.

Zero.
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  #38  
Old 06-26-17, 08:58 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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The facts simply do not support a shot clock.

There is one state that has a shot clock that is currently in the top 10 in scoring. (North Dakota #10) The states ranked above them are all non-shot clock states.

Game times on average without the clock..... 1:08
With the clock..... 1:09

Points scored per game with the clock are 101 with the clock, 104 without....


The clock will necessitate a change in closely guarded rules, which will result in that electrifying offense consisting of a point guard dribbling the shot clock away without peril of a 5 second call.......

It's a solution in search of a problem. Be careful for what you wish.
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  #39  
Old 06-26-17, 09:14 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
How does a shot clock take away from teams playing good defense? That makes zero sense.

Zero.
then you can at least take the time to make the case instead of the pronouncement.
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  #40  
Old 06-27-17, 12:56 PM
Perk Diggler Perk Diggler is offline
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Hmmmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post

I find it boring, myself. Everyone's late-clock offense is the same; the shorter the shot clock the more of the game is spent in late-clock situations, the more of the game spent in late-clock situations the more homogeneous the game. And I think homogenized basketball is dull. The most memorable high school game I've seen in many years was the Trotwood/Moeller regional final three years ago--not just because it had a spectacular ending, or because there were a lot of really good players on the floor, but mostly because the whole 32 minutes was a tug of war between two entirely opposite conceptions about how the game should be played. Put a shot clock on that game and it would have completely lost its knife-edge fascination. And the comeback wouldn't have been nearly as spectacular if it had been a shot clock that was prying the ball out of Moeller's hands in the fourth quarter instead of Trotwood's pressure.
This is a really good point!!! I actually like the idea of the shot clock though, as the learning curve to playing college ball lessens. Adjusting to playing with a shot clock is a big time adjustment.
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  #41  
Old 06-27-17, 01:07 PM
Perk Diggler Perk Diggler is offline
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I'm really trying to understand how a shot clock "dumbs the game down". I assume we all watch college ball and there are contrasting styles. In March Madness we watch "inferior" schools beat BCS schools every year. The same would happen in HS!!! Those teams that are well coached like the Moellers, Lasalle are still going to do what they do shot clock OR NOT.
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  #42  
Old 06-27-17, 01:33 PM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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As it is most possessions in a high school game take way less than 35 seconds as a shot or turnover occurs before then. The shot clock simply takes away the stall ball option at the end of quarters or games when one team has a lead and a good delay game. As far as defense, this should actually allow for improved defense as coaches can urge their guys to dig in for 35 seconds max as long as no offensive rebound. A half court team still has plenty of time to set up their offense and run 25-30 seconds of offense before shooting. College teams like Virginia and Wisconsin do this very effectively with a shot clock in the college game....Virginia held North Carolina under 50 one game last year.
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  #43  
Old 06-27-17, 02:17 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
As it is most possessions in a high school game take way less than 35 seconds as a shot or turnover occurs before then. The shot clock simply takes away the stall ball option at the end of quarters or games when one team has a lead and a good delay game. As far as defense, this should actually allow for improved defense as coaches can urge their guys to dig in for 35 seconds max as long as no offensive rebound. A half court team still has plenty of time to set up their offense and run 25-30 seconds of offense before shooting. College teams like Virginia and Wisconsin do this very effectively with a shot clock in the college game....Virginia held North Carolina under 50 one game last year.
This.
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  #44  
Old 06-27-17, 02:47 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perk Diggler View Post
This is a really good point!!! I actually like the idea of the shot clock though, as the learning curve to playing college ball lessens. Adjusting to playing with a shot clock is a big time adjustment.
It's not the OHSAA's or the NFHS's job to lessen the learning curve to college basketball. What percentage of high school players go on to the next level, 2 or something like that?
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  #45  
Old 06-27-17, 02:54 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
It's not the OHSAA's or the NFHS's job to lessen the learning curve to college basketball. What percentage of high school players go on to the next level, 2 or something like that?
The shot clock exists in professional and college basketball because each game is part of a multi-billion dollar industry. That's their mission......

High School Basketball's mission is participation based.

The only reason why people want it is because "college has it". Their claims about increased scoring, length of games, et al, have no basis in fact.
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  #46  
Old 06-27-17, 02:55 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
How does a shot clock take away from teams playing good defense? That makes zero sense.

Zero.
I see how it can. Say you're a team like Trotwood from last year. You can score pretty much at will on people. You're playing a team that simply can't match your offensive output. You know they have to take a shot within 35-40 seconds each possession and not be able to hold the ball and limit possessions.

So Trotwood (or some other high output offensive team) doesn't feel they need to play that great of defense as they are confident the other team won't be able to score enough to keep up even if they have their best night. Do you play good, solid defense anyway or play for the rebound & fast break opportunity knowing that is your advantage?

Slowing the game down forces the high powered team to play aggressive defense to create the turnovers to get the points. With a shot clock they can just sit back on wait for them to take a shot to create the turnover for them.

As I said before....I like to see the mismatches like this especially in the tournament. Holding the ball effectively is not an easy thing to do especially if you aren't used to doing this.
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  #47  
Old 06-27-17, 02:58 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
As it is most possessions in a high school game take way less than 35 seconds as a shot or turnover occurs before then. The shot clock simply takes away the stall ball option at the end of quarters or games when one team has a lead and a good delay game. As far as defense, this should actually allow for improved defense as coaches can urge their guys to dig in for 35 seconds max as long as no offensive rebound. A half court team still has plenty of time to set up their offense and run 25-30 seconds of offense before shooting. College teams like Virginia and Wisconsin do this very effectively with a shot clock in the college game....Virginia held North Carolina under 50 one game last year.
College isn't high school. Especially at the D1 level where everyone is an exceptional talent. 98% of the kids playing in high school will never play another truly competitive game again.

Because it works in college is not a reason to force it upon high school kids.
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  #48  
Old 06-27-17, 03:21 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I see how it can. Say you're a team like Trotwood from last year. You can score pretty much at will on people. You're playing a team that simply can't match your offensive output. You know they have to take a shot within 35-40 seconds each possession and not be able to hold the ball and limit possessions.

So Trotwood (or some other high output offensive team) doesn't feel they need to play that great of defense as they are confident the other team won't be able to score enough to keep up even if they have their best night. Do you play good, solid defense anyway or play for the rebound & fast break opportunity knowing that is your advantage?

Slowing the game down forces the high powered team to play aggressive defense to create the turnovers to get the points. With a shot clock they can just sit back on wait for them to take a shot to create the turnover for them.

As I said before....I like to see the mismatches like this especially in the tournament. Holding the ball effectively is not an easy thing to do especially if you aren't used to doing this.
Um...you're missing a really important aspect of this. Them playing poor defense will also result in the other team scoring more points. You're assuming they are missing...how does poorer defense equate to more missed shots? Another really bad argument.
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  #49  
Old 06-27-17, 03:46 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Um...you're missing a really important aspect of this. Them playing poor defense will also result in the other team scoring more points. You're assuming they are missing...how does poorer defense equate to more missed shots? Another really bad argument.
You're right. No defense or poor defense will magically make a team that shoots poorly shoot lights out. That's just stupid.

If I'm a team like Trotwood last year I'll take my chances that we will be able to run the other team out of the gym if they are forced to shoot every 40 seconds no matter what. Pack it and let them chuck up jump shots all day. Rebound and fast break.
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  #50  
Old 06-27-17, 05:04 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The shot clock exists in professional and college basketball because each game is part of a multi-billion dollar industry. That's their mission......

High School Basketball's mission is participation based.

The only reason why people want it is because "college has it". Their claims about increased scoring, length of games, et al, have no basis in fact.
And that's working under the assumption that there needs to be more scoring and that the games' length needs to be changed. I don't see the need.
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  #51  
Old 06-27-17, 05:41 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
And that's working under the assumption that there needs to be more scoring and that the games' length needs to be changed. I don't see the need.
Nor do I.

Add the fact that the scoring increase is minimal, (being generous here) less than one point per game total, and the result is that you have a rule change happening for no apparent reason.
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  #52  
Old 06-28-17, 08:18 AM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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Participation is down in basketball, smaller schools really feeling it with struggles to field JV teams and freshman teams at some schools. Why not try something different? If you remember, many said high schools did not need the 3 point shot either and that has turned out ok. I do not think the shot clock will change the approach for many coaches other than eliminate stalling. But if perception is the game is faster and more fun to play and watch and that increases participation and attendance then it is a good move. My point above using Virginia and Wisconsin as an example was just to show that you can still play a disciplined brand of basketball and good defense with the shot clock. 35 seconds is a long time......it is not the old Loyola Maramount shooting every 8 seconds.
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  #53  
Old 06-28-17, 08:49 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
Participation is down in basketball, smaller schools really feeling it with struggles to field JV teams and freshman teams at some schools. Why not try something different? If you remember, many said high schools did not need the 3 point shot either and that has turned out ok. I do not think the shot clock will change the approach for many coaches other than eliminate stalling. But if perception is the game is faster and more fun to play and watch and that increases participation and attendance then it is a good move. My point above using Virginia and Wisconsin as an example was just to show that you can still play a disciplined brand of basketball and good defense with the shot clock. 35 seconds is a long time......it is not the old Loyola Maramount shooting every 8 seconds.
Agreed...most of my frame of reference is the GCL, and I think most people believe a shot clock would improve the flow of play in that league.

My guess is that many over at LaSalle are excited about basketball season with the change in style with their coaching change. You can't argue Fleming's success, but a more up-tempo brand of basketball is just more entertaining to watch. They would have sets and resets that would run 2 minutes of clock. And if they didn't have the kid Fleming as a shot maker, it would have probably been longer.

Not to mention the four corners offense Moeller runs when they have the lead (when they don't even have to...they have the best players in the city). St X and Elder really don't stall, but it's set after set after set...they also don't have the horses in basketball, so it's somewhat understandable.
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  #54  
Old 06-28-17, 01:15 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Nor do I.

Add the fact that the scoring increase is minimal, (being generous here) less than one point per game total, and the result is that you have a rule change happening for no apparent reason.
A pretty expensive rule change for minimal impact. Who's footing the bill for all the required expenditures? You guessed it, the taxpayers.

Any "speed up" benefit associated with a shot clock will be offset by the amount of times the clock has to be fixed because of timers' mistakes. You can say that it will get better after a season of growing pains, but the reality is we go to schools all the time that still don't put competent individuals at the table for things as simple as starting and stopping the clock. Add a shot clock to that mix and the games will go on all night.
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  #55  
Old 06-28-17, 02:33 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
A pretty expensive rule change for minimal impact. Who's footing the bill for all the required expenditures? You guessed it, the taxpayers.

Any "speed up" benefit associated with a shot clock will be offset by the amount of times the clock has to be fixed because of timers' mistakes. You can say that it will get better after a season of growing pains, but the reality is we go to schools all the time that still don't put competent individuals at the table for things as simple as starting and stopping the clock. Add a shot clock to that mix and the games will go on all night.
I agree with you on the timer issues however, I don't think it's the length of games that is the issue for the proponents of the clock.. Many feel that the game (they use a small survey sample) is stagnant. Their thinking is that a clock will ensure a better overall flow and make it more entertaining to watch.

There are a couple of problems with that rationale....

1) The clock does not guarantee a better flow. The facts show that scoring is not affected. If there are more possessions, and scoring is not increasing proportionate to these additional possessions, what's happening? Missed shots, increased turnovers, and the potential for more fouls. We know as officials, none of those result in a better flow of the game. (that's why at the end of the captain's meeting we tell the kids, "put the ball in the hole")

2) It promotes one-on-one play, particularly at the end of a quarter or overtime. Spend a few days watching an AAU game, you'll see that demonstrated clearly.

I'd rather see the NFHS do what Minnesota has done. Go to 18 minute halves. The results of their decision to implement has achieved exactly what people in favor of the shot clock desire while retaining the ability for teams to be coached to their abilities.

Last edited by AllSports12; 06-28-17 at 03:00 PM.
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  #56  
Old 06-28-17, 05:48 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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The game is called basketball for a reason to put the ball in the basket not to hold it for 32 minutes. Unfortunately too many H.S. coaches need too have complete control over the game and restrict the flow of the game instead of letting the players dictate the flow of the game. After last years low scoring state championship games I would be surprised if Ohio did not have a shot clock sooner than later.
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  #57  
Old 06-28-17, 05:53 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
I would be surprised if Ohio did not have a shot clock sooner than later.
Unless the NFHS makes this a stated rule or allows state associations to adopt this rule (meaning it's optional), it won't happen in Ohio.
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  #58  
Old 06-28-17, 09:03 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
The game is called basketball for a reason to put the ball in the basket not to hold it for 32 minutes. Unfortunately too many H.S. coaches need too have complete control over the game and restrict the flow of the game instead of letting the players dictate the flow of the game. After last years low scoring state championship games I would be surprised if Ohio did not have a shot clock sooner than later.
Completely agree. It's also a misunderstanding of the game to assume players who have 1:1 skills make the game like AAU. Nobody is calling for a free for all. But 1:1 skills are definitely an important aspect of the overall skills of a player. Sets break down, and good players improvise. It has nothing to do with AAU style of play.

Having a shot clock would dictate kids actually learn some of the skills, as they will SOMETIMES be needed at the end of a shot clock.

Having 1:1 skills doesn't mean you can't play team, structured basketball. It's simply another skill set as a ball player to be more well-rounded. SO MANY players are nothing but "specialists" and have very little actual basketball skill.
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  #59  
Old 06-28-17, 10:07 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Completely agree. It's also a misunderstanding of the game to assume players who have 1:1 skills make the game like AAU. Nobody is calling for a free for all. But 1:1 skills are definitely an important aspect of the overall skills of a player. Sets break down, and good players improvise. It has nothing to do with AAU style of play.

Having a shot clock would dictate kids actually learn some of the skills, as they will SOMETIMES be needed at the end of a shot clock.

Having 1:1 skills doesn't mean you can't play team, structured basketball. It's simply another skill set as a ball player to be more well-rounded. SO MANY players are nothing but "specialists" and have very little actual basketball skill.
I did a little more digging and found that the most recent statistical analysis of states with the clock versus states without the clock shows that states without the clock average 3 points more per game than states with the clock. (a 2013-2014 survey versus the 2008 survey I cited prior)

If the clock is good for the overall game (entertainment), why is scoring down in those states?
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  #60  
Old 06-28-17, 10:18 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I did a little more digging and found that the most recent statistical analysis of states with the clock versus states without the clock shows that states without the clock average 3 points more per game than states with the clock. (a 2013-2014 survey versus the 2008 survey I cited prior)

If the clock is good for the overall game (entertainment), why is scoring down in those states?
Makes you wonder if the shot clock just turns into holding the ball until the end of a shot clock and forcing a hurried up shot (we've seen LeBron do this MANY times in the NBA).

With the shot clock, the defense can just sit back and wait for the clock to run out instead of attacking the dribbler because they know that they will be getting the ball back shortly.

It would be interesting to see the shooting percentages of states with shot clocks versus those without.
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