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  #1  
Old 06-22-17, 08:51 PM
goshengophers goshengophers is offline
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Wisconsin approves shot clock

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports...all/418077001/
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  #2  
Old 06-23-17, 08:03 AM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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Cost has always been the argument plus the additional worker needed to run the clock. But as a high school basketball fan I would welcome the shot clock to Ohio. Not a lot of teams use stall tactics these days but nobody enjoys watching teams hold the ball. Not a lot of learning is going on either when one team holds the ball and creates a quarter where each team has only a couple possessions.
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  #3  
Old 06-23-17, 04:51 PM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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I just don't see the need for it. I rarely see possessions lasting longer than 30-40 seconds as it is. Occasionally, but pretty rare and can't remember the last time I saw it for a whole game.
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  #4  
Old 06-23-17, 07:03 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Originally Posted by ringer2 View Post
I just don't see the need for it. I rarely see possessions lasting longer than 30-40 seconds as it is. Occasionally, but pretty rare and can't remember the last time I saw it for a whole game.
I agree.

It changes the game and totally removes one strategy for trying to manage a game.
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  #5  
Old 06-23-17, 08:09 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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I'm not really seeing a need for a shot clock. IMO, a 35-40 second clock would have very little to no impact on the regular season. The only real impact would be cutting down on stalling in the tournament, particularly late in quarters or in the game.
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  #6  
Old 06-23-17, 08:27 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
Cost has always been the argument plus the additional worker needed to run the clock. .


$3.98 + $1.29 + Free
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  #7  
Old 06-24-17, 08:05 AM
borntopin borntopin is offline
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It is long overdue in Ohio. Nothing worse as a fan trying to watch a game and one of the teams is up by 4 or more and starts to stall. I see it every year and my friends/family and I can't stand it. I have been wanting Ohio high school to have a shot clock for over 20 years.
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  #8  
Old 06-24-17, 11:03 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
I'm not really seeing a need for a shot clock. IMO, a 35-40 second clock would have very little to no impact on the regular season. The only real impact would be cutting down on stalling in the tournament, particularly late in quarters or in the game.
I agree that it's rare for a possession to last more than 45 seconds or so and it wouldn't speed the game up much or create many extra possessions, but I think it would change the game a lot. When the clock gets to 10 or 15 you'd see teams break their offense and go to nothing but ball screens and iso. They'd probably have to make the switch to late-clock mode earlier than we see in college or pro ball, because the players aren't as good at creating their own shots.

Is that a change people want? To me, each time they've sped up the shot clock in college the game has gotten uglier, and the effect's a lot worse at the D3 level than it is on the games you're seeing on TV. But maybe I'm in a minority here.
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  #9  
Old 06-24-17, 11:25 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by borntopin View Post
It is long overdue in Ohio. Nothing worse as a fan trying to watch a game and one of the teams is up by 4 or more and starts to stall. I see it every year and my friends/family and I can't stand it. I have been wanting Ohio high school to have a shot clock for over 20 years.
We must not be watching the same games. Not counting holding the ball for a last shot, or when up in the last minute or so of a game, I've haven't seen this in at least five years.

It might be worth piecing out why this is happening with some teams/leagues/regions and not others. Type of defense being played, maybe? Or do we just have a different definition of "stall"?
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  #10  
Old 06-25-17, 01:06 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Originally Posted by borntopin View Post
It is long overdue in Ohio. Nothing worse as a fan trying to watch a game and one of the teams is up by 4 or more and starts to stall. I see it every year and my friends/family and I can't stand it. I have been wanting Ohio high school to have a shot clock for over 20 years.
Its good basketball when up by a few posessions to force a team to foul late in the fourth especially if your in the bonus. If both teams are equal limiting opposing possessions at the end of fourth is critiical. A mistake is to start it to early. Also 4 corners sets are hard and must be practiced to do it right.
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  #11  
Old 06-25-17, 01:20 PM
St.X fan2 St.X fan2 is offline
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It is needed in Ohio as some of the games are boring due to teams stalling and holding on to the ball for long amounts of time.
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  #12  
Old 06-25-17, 01:42 PM
Vinegar Vinegar is offline
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St X fan would know! Moeller and LaSalle games can SUCK to watch because of their style of play....but....JUST. WIN. BABY!
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  #13  
Old 06-25-17, 05:27 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
I agree that it's rare for a possession to last more than 45 seconds or so and it wouldn't speed the game up much or create many extra possessions, but I think it would change the game a lot. When the clock gets to 10 or 15 you'd see teams break their offense and go to nothing but ball screens and iso. They'd probably have to make the switch to late-clock mode earlier than we see in college or pro ball, because the players aren't as good at creating their own shots.

Is that a change people want? To me, each time they've sped up the shot clock in college the game has gotten uglier, and the effect's a lot worse at the D3 level than it is on the games you're seeing on TV. But maybe I'm in a minority here.
That's probably a good point. Particularly at the lower levels, most teams probably aren't getting a good motion offense shot with under 10 seconds on the shot clock. Ball screen/isolation offense that teams run at the end of the quarter would be run with 10-15 seconds left on the clock. I'm not sure that's a positive change for the game.

Just about all I could see this really accomplishing is stopping the Moeller's and LaSalle's from excessively stalling. IMO, the across the board impact would be negative.
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  #14  
Old 06-25-17, 06:06 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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OK, here is my suggestion (for fun)...

Ohio goes to an "American" League and "National" League. The teams that play in the American League play by the new rule using a shot clock. The National League continues to play by the traditional no clock rule. During the regular season, you play by the host team's rule.

During the tournament, teams are still split into the American and National within their divisions (DI, DII, DIII, and DIV). The State Championship will pit the American League and National League champs against each other for every division. DI and DIII will play by one set of rules. DII and DIV will play by the other set of rules. They will swap rules every year.


Personally, I don't want the shot clock but admit that I would find it interesting to see some games played with it. Maybe they can adopt my crazy idea from up above...
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  #15  
Old 06-25-17, 06:58 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Until the NFHS adopts the shot clock nationwide (unlikely) or makes it an allowable state option (more of a possibility), I just don't see the OHSAA going that way. And they've always indicated their stance as such. They don't want to give up their vote on the rules committee.

We have a lot of issues with table crews running the shot clock in lower level college games I work. I can't imagine some of these high schools having the competent personnel.

From a game play standpoint, I just think it's a solution looking for a problem at the high school level.
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  #16  
Old 06-26-17, 10:05 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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The main reason I like the change is it opens up some creativity on offense. It requires players to be able to create off the dribble, or to actually make tough shots under the pressure of the clock.

I think people hate watching GCL games because it all feels so scripted and coach controlled. Giving the kids some freedom to create is a good thing IMO (both for them, and for the entertainment value of those watching). I think this is needed in Ohio.

I just think it creates a more exciting brand of basketball. I'm also guessing the coaches really don't care about that. I don't anticipate it changing, however.

Last edited by trey2k; 06-26-17 at 10:40 AM.
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  #17  
Old 06-26-17, 10:18 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Totally against it for high school.

The different styles of play is what makes it fun to watch the kids play. I like seeing a totally over matched opponent try to slow the game down to win a game especially in the tournament.

And as someone pointed out, we have a hard enough time getting volunteer adults to run the score boards properly now. Add in a shot clock and what could go wrong? LOL
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  #18  
Old 06-26-17, 12:15 PM
Yellow_Jacket06 Yellow_Jacket06 is offline
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The consistent argument in favor of a shot clock is that stalling is boring for fans. That shouldn't even be a factor in the decision. The objective of the game is to win, not entertain the masses. Fans are secondary especially at the HS level. A shot clock would do little but give already superior athletic teams even more of an advantage over the underdog who is trying to scratch and claw out a win.
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  #19  
Old 06-26-17, 12:17 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I think people hate watching GCL games because it all feels so scripted and coach controlled.
Is the GCL having trouble getting people to come out to their games? This is news to me.
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  #20  
Old 06-26-17, 12:28 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Yeoman View Post
Is the GCL having trouble getting people to come out to their games? This is news to me.
No, I'm guessing attendance is pretty much the same as usual. But you have alot of complaints about 1-2 minute offensive sets, and the brand of basketball resembling football more than basketball. The focus is tough-minded physical play on defense, and alot of scripted sets and then resets on offense...which result in alot of 38-35 type games. It can be boring at times.
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  #21  
Old 06-26-17, 12:55 PM
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It's time for Ohio to come out of the stone age, I'm sure if you ask the majority of the kids playing the game they would want a shot clock so that they get more opportunities to score. Those that do not want it fall into either the overly controlling coach category or the "back in the day" fan category. And those that are saying it adds to the strategy are wrong, I contend it takes away from planning strategy; with a shot clock you need to develop a more diverse offensive game plan as you get more possessions.
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  #22  
Old 06-26-17, 01:36 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
It's time for Ohio to come out of the stone age, I'm sure if you ask the majority of the kids playing the game they would want a shot clock so that they get more opportunities to score. Those that do not want it fall into either the overly controlling coach category or the "back in the day" fan category. And those that are saying it adds to the strategy are wrong, I contend it takes away from planning strategy; with a shot clock you need to develop a more diverse offensive game plan as you get more possessions.
I'm not sure I agree with you about the strategy part. The NBA is the most boring brand of basketball and they have the shortest shot clock. IMO, it ruins the flow of the game. I would argue that the NBA really doesn't play any defense at all until the playoffs because of the shot clock.

If HS did adopt a shot clock, I would prefer it to be much longer than the other shot clocks. Somewhere around 45-60 seconds would be a reasonable amount. That would get rid of the 1 possession per quarter type of games but wouldn't turn HS basketball into the no-defense chuck up shots like the NBA.
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  #23  
Old 06-26-17, 01:57 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The main reason I like the change is it opens up some creativity on offense. It requires players to be able to create off the dribble, or to actually make tough shots under the pressure of the clock.

I think people hate watching GCL games because it all feels so scripted and coach controlled. Giving the kids some freedom to create is a good thing IMO (both for them, and for the entertainment value of those watching). I think this is needed in Ohio.

I just think it creates a more exciting brand of basketball. I'm also guessing the coaches really don't care about that. I don't anticipate it changing, however.
You talk as if they don't have playgrounds in Cinci? This is what you seem (TO ME) to be looking for, b-ball that requires no knowledge by the players of a team game.

Scripted? What is your definition of that word as it pertains to games? You don't think the other coach and team has an opposition in mind? Is chess "scripted" to you, because it has plays? Are you sure YOU know what you're looking at? Or is it you do, just don't find it entertaining?
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  #24  
Old 06-26-17, 02:25 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
It's time for Ohio to come out of the stone age, I'm sure if you ask the majority of the kids playing the game they would want a shot clock so that they get more opportunities to score. Those that do not want it fall into either the overly controlling coach category or the "back in the day" fan category. And those that are saying it adds to the strategy are wrong, I contend it takes away from planning strategy; with a shot clock you need to develop a more diverse offensive game plan as you get more possessions.
If Ohio is in the stone age, then so are the other 41 states that don't break away from the NFHS on this issue. Many of those states having some of the best high school basketball in the entire nation.

Cost is always going to be an issue even though people don't like to hear it. It's not easy for small rural schools with old gyms and scoreboards to gather up the four figures it takes to buy and install all the required equipment.
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Old 06-26-17, 02:28 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
No, I'm guessing attendance is pretty much the same as usual. But you have alot of complaints about 1-2 minute offensive sets, and the brand of basketball resembling football more than basketball. The focus is tough-minded physical play on defense, and alot of scripted sets and then resets on offense...which result in alot of 38-35 type games. It can be boring at times.
I think that's a pretty succinct description of the motivation for the drive to an ever-shorter shot clock in college: opposition to motion offenses and "scripted sets"; opposition to "tough-minded" defense.

Some of it is demand from the media and some subset of the fanbase for a more highlight-friendly brand of basketball. Some of it is probably demand from agents and handlers for a better showcase for their star players. Some of it has come from coaches whose skills are on the recruiting end of the job, are tired of their superior talent getting beat by the Pete Carrils and Bo Ryans and John Beileins of the world, and are looking for some rule-based relief.

I find it boring, myself. Everyone's late-clock offense is the same; the shorter the shot clock the more of the game is spent in late-clock situations, the more of the game spent in late-clock situations the more homogeneous the game. And I think homogenized basketball is dull. The most memorable high school game I've seen in many years was the Trotwood/Moeller regional final three years ago--not just because it had a spectacular ending, or because there were a lot of really good players on the floor, but mostly because the whole 32 minutes was a tug of war between two entirely opposite conceptions about how the game should be played. Put a shot clock on that game and it would have completely lost its knife-edge fascination. And the comeback wouldn't have been nearly as spectacular if it had been a shot clock that was prying the ball out of Moeller's hands in the fourth quarter instead of Trotwood's pressure.
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  #26  
Old 06-26-17, 02:33 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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I would argue that the NBA really doesn't play any defense at all until the playoffs because of the shot clock..
Maybe you're right about this. But I've always thought the reason was that 3000 minutes is a lot of basketball and good defense is really hard work. It's like asking why marathon runners don't go as fast as the guys running the 440.
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  #27  
Old 06-26-17, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
If Ohio is in the stone age, then so are the other 41 states that don't break away from the NFHS on this issue. Many of those states having some of the best high school basketball in the entire nation.

Cost is always going to be an issue even though people don't like to hear it. It's not easy for small rural schools with old gyms and scoreboards to gather up the four figures it takes to buy and install all the required equipment.
I didn't realize the split until I looked it up for a list of who has the more dynamic game with a shot clock. It's along the lines of the political red/blue split with California, New York, Massachusetts, Maryland, Washington being some of the states that use the shot clock. The Dakotas are the only true red states that use a shot clock. Interesting.
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  #28  
Old 06-26-17, 02:59 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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I didn't realize the split until I looked it up for a list of who has the more dynamic game with a shot clock. It's along the lines of the political red/blue split with California, New York, Massachusetts, Maryland, Washington being some of the states that use the shot clock. The Dakotas are the only true red states that use a shot clock. Interesting.
Don't have time to look it up right now but I'm pretty sure the four rural states using a shot clock are North and South Dakota, Minnesota, and Wisconsin.

It might not be an accident that those are also the four rural states where basketball is not the primary winter sport for boys.
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  #29  
Old 06-26-17, 03:03 PM
Yeoman Yeoman is offline
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But you have alot of complaints about 1-2 minute offensive sets, and the brand of basketball resembling football more than basketball.
Complaints from whom? I live about a mile from Moeller and I don't here any complaining in the community about the brand of basketball they play. And I sat in the Trotwood crowd three years ago and there wasn't any complaining there either. Moeller's style was a challenge; it was "how do we speed these guys up?" not "I wish we had a shot clock so they wouldn't be able to play this way."
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Old 06-26-17, 03:59 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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It's time for Ohio to come out of the stone age, I'm sure if you ask the majority of the kids playing the game they would want a shot clock so that they get more opportunities to score. Those that do not want it fall into either the overly controlling coach category or the "back in the day" fan category. And those that are saying it adds to the strategy are wrong, I contend it takes away from planning strategy; with a shot clock you need to develop a more diverse offensive game plan as you get more possessions.
Appreciate you're pigeon holing those that disagree with you but believe it or not, some kids still believe in a game that does more than run up and down the court. Some even like.... shhhhh.... playing defense, designing offensive plays....

I mean of course many would like math to stop at 20 and reading at Harry Potter but there are still people in this world that like to think. Games are a reflection of battle. Those headlong charges with no plan, not so great at bringing up the next generation of leaders. No shot clock in life. Sometimes you have to know when to attack and when to set up the opponent first, then attack. It's not a one tactic world.
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