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  #1  
Old 07-13-17, 07:57 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Darkest Hour

I just saw this trailer and you can count me in on opening night!




Gory Oldman IS Winston Churchill. One of the most amazing moments in history and one of the most amazing men of the twentieth century! First Dunkirk and now this movie in November. It's a great time to be a WW2 history junkie.
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  #2  
Old 07-13-17, 09:57 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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A stiff upper lip hero, no doubt.
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  #3  
Old 07-14-17, 10:18 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Churchill a great leader? Ask WW I, lol. His ONLY goal was to retain the empire, he made no secret he didn't care how that was accomplished. An extreme egotist. He was a proud racist. Advocated gas attacks, slavery and subservitude. His actions against the French fleet set off a wave of anti-British sentiment, weakening that country when he could have trusted his allies to do as they said. cIf we'd had fleet there, he would have done the same thing if we didn't turn our ships over to him. Could you imagine how that war would have changed if he'd done that to us?

It was a romantic defense of the island by its people but that doesn't mean to forget, they were one of the most arrogant and self-interested and expansionist nations in the hostory of the world. The "bad" should be considered as well as the good when looking at the perspective.

Roosevelt didn't even trust him. He would sacrifice all of Europe, Canada and the US if it would have led to the retention and expansion of the empire.

Churchill's best leadership qualties were he was better than Chamberlain and he gave a good speech. He wasn't a moral leader, a moral man. He was the good team's Hitler.

Quote:
"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

Last edited by eastisbest; 07-14-17 at 01:03 PM.
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  #4  
Old 07-14-17, 10:45 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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^ - I agree. I always laugh at how Churchill is portrayed in today's world.

Regardless, before opening the link and reading that Oldman would be playing Churchill I thought "yeah right." Then I opened the link. Gary Oldman will never cease to amaze me as an actor.
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  #5  
Old 07-14-17, 01:00 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Churchill a great leader? Ask WW I, lol. His ONLY goal was to retain the empire, he made no secret he didn't care how that was accomplished. An extreme egotist. He was a proud racist. Advocated gas attacks, slavery and subservitude. His actions against the French fleet set off a wave of anti-British sentiment, weakening that country when he could have trusted his allies to do as they said. cIf we'd had fleet there, he would have done the same thing if we didn't turn our ships over to him. Could you imagine how that war would have changed if he'd done that to us?

It was a romantic defense of the island by its people but that doesn't mean to forget, they were one of the most arrogant and self-interested and expansionist nations in the hostory of the world. The "bad" should be considered as well as the good when looking at the perspective.

Roosevelt didn't even trust him. He would sacrifice all of Europe, Canada and the US if it would have led to the retention and expansion of the empire.

Churchill's best leadership qualties were he was better than Chamberlain and he gave a good speech. He wasn't a moral leader, a moral man. He was the good team's Hitler.
Wow you sure are channeling Noam Chomsky today! Why don't you just come out and say that evil white men (Europeans) have exploited the world and be done with it!

Sure Churchill was an imperial apologist, he was a man of his times. IMO there's nothing weaker & more unfair when analyzing history than holding folks from earlier ages to our moral standards. It makes for bad history IMO. And yes Churchill's actions in WW1 were problematic but I think he perfectly fits Teddy Roosevelt's wonderful little saying:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly," 1

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."



Churchill was the right man at the right time to save the British Empire and perhaps the world from Nazi tyranny. And as an aside, Britain's role in the world, no matter how much it involved all the isms you can throw out, was a positive one and the human race is better for having been graced by a British Empire then if that empire had never existed.
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Old 07-14-17, 02:49 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Wow you sure are channeling Noam Chomsky today! Why don't you just come out and say that evil white men (Europeans) have exploited the world and be done with it!

Sure Churchill was an imperial apologist, he was a man of his times. IMO there's nothing weaker & more unfair when analyzing history than holding folks from earlier ages to our moral standards. It makes for bad history IMO. And yes Churchill's actions in WW1 were problematic.
Do you have a fear of addressing the negative? Why so emotional when someone uses FACTs to challenge your established blinders? There's nothing "unfair" about it. It's what a historian is supposed to do. It's your dogma that's challenged, there's none coming from me. I've no idea on Chomsky's nor care. Churchill's moronic forages into military strategy didn't stop in WWI, read about operation Catherine.

We're fortunate that Churchill wasn't actually a "man of his times" or history would have stagnated. He was a man whose ideas on the nature of humanity were fortunately overthrown by those who were men of their times. We can only speculate as to whether or not the war would have been won without him, I'd imagine few believe he was all that critical and that war would have progressed as well or reasonably the same with Halifax. The V2 provided the British all the motivation they needed to reject pacifism.

What we can be sure, if his concepts of a human being's place in the world had held, we would not have won the peace. He was a man lost in time.

Yes, people are "grey." Don't fear that someone shades your historical hero. Accept it as an objective, not "unfair" look.
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  #7  
Old 07-14-17, 03:01 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Yes, people are "grey." Don't fear that someone shades your historical hero. Accept it as an objective, not "unfair" look.
Though I don't agree with your entire point about Churchill, this is an important point. When we make out historical figures to be either perfect or purely evil, it leaves little ability for students to apply historical lessons to the modern day.
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  #8  
Old 07-14-17, 03:05 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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not a fan of historical movies

overcoming knowing what happens is not easy and most films fail at keeping things interesting
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  #9  
Old 07-14-17, 03:58 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Do you have a fear of addressing the negative? Why so emotional when someone uses FACTs to challenge your established blinders? There's nothing "unfair" about it. It's what a historian is supposed to do. It's your dogma that's challenged, there's none coming from me. I've no idea on Chomsky's nor care. Churchill's moronic forages into military strategy didn't stop in WWI, read about operation Catherine.

We're fortunate that Churchill wasn't actually a "man of his times" or history would have stagnated. He was a man whose ideas on the nature of humanity were fortunately overthrown by those who were men of their times. We can only speculate as to whether or not the war would have been won without him, I'd imagine few believe he was all that critical and that war would have progressed as well or reasonably the same with Halifax. The V2 provided the British all the motivation they needed to reject pacifism.

What we can be sure, if his concepts of a human being's place in the world had held, we would not have won the peace. He was a man lost in time.

Yes, people are "grey." Don't fear that someone shades your historical hero. Accept it as an objective, not "unfair" look.
First off my guess is that any historian of note would tell you that to make value judgements of historical figures based on today's social norms & moral climate is practicing poor historical analysis. You are using social justice warrior prose to go after a man who was born in the 19th century. It provides no useful insight into the mans character or decision making as it simply applies a 21st century bias to what these people did in previous eras.

Most of the speculative or "what if" analyses I have read concerning the outcome of WW2 indicates that the allies victory would have been far from assured if Churchill had not been prime minister. At the very least it's likely that Britain would have sued for peace which is exactly what Hitler wanted.

With Britain out of the war in the summer of 1940 Hitler would be able to turn his undivided attention towards the invasion of the Soviet Union. Without Britain in the war the Germans could have concentrated their forces for the invasion of Russia without suffering from the distractions of the Battle of Britain (where the German Luftwaffe suffered significant losses) or the adventures in the Balkans, Greece and North Africa all of which acted to siphon men & material away from the Soviet invasion. It's likely that the original timing of Operation Barbarossa would have been met meaning the Russian invasion would have kicked of in early May. Those six weeks (invasion launched June22) would have been critical in beating the Russian winter to Moscow.

Even more importantly with Britain out of the war there would have been little reason for the United States to send supplies to Russia. It's one thing to be the arsenal of democracy when dealing with a true democratic government like Britain's but quite another supplying Stalin's Russia. Also with Britain out of the war there is no battle of the Atlantic so not only can German naval forces focus 100% on the Russians but there is no reason for Hitler to declare war on the USA after Pearl Harbor. At that point WW2 would have devolved into two wars: one pitting a spider & scorpion in Europe and the other matching the Japanese empire versus the USA.

So you see Churchill was an important historical figure and I can't wait for this movie to open!
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  #10  
Old 07-14-17, 04:02 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Though I don't agree with your entire point about Churchill, this is an important point. When we make out historical figures to be either perfect or purely evil, it leaves little ability for students to apply historical lessons to the modern day.
Nobody is making out that Churchill was perfect. But he was an important historical figure who had an enormous impact on the course of the biggest war in human history. In fact those of us who have read biographies on the man would freely admit that he was a bit of a rat bastard and for sure his military decisions in WW1 often turned out badly.

The whole point of copying over those two awesome Teddy Roosevelt quotes is that they fit Churchill perfectly. That an imperfect man who often fails can rise to do great things. And Churchill did great things. To argue otherwise is historical malpractice.
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  #11  
Old 07-14-17, 04:13 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Nobody is making out that Churchill was perfect. But he was an important historical figure who had an enormous impact on the course of the biggest war in human history. In fact those of us who have read biographies on the man would freely admit that he was a bit of a rat bastard and for sure his military decisions in WW1 often turned out badly.

The whole point of copying over those two awesome Teddy Roosevelt quotes is that they fit Churchill perfectly. That an imperfect man who often fails can rise to do great things. And Churchill did great things. To argue otherwise is historical malpractice.
Not arguing with any of that. Just thought it was a solid point by east that deserved to be decoupled from the debate about Churchill.
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  #12  
Old 07-14-17, 04:26 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Not arguing with any of that. Just thought it was a solid point by east that deserved to be decoupled from the debate about Churchill.
Fair enough. So what did you think of the trailer? Are you going to check the movie out?
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Old 07-14-17, 04:28 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
Fair enough. So what did you think of the trailer? Are you going to check the movie out?
Most likely. The director hasn't done anything I've enjoyed before, so that makes me a bit nervous. But seems worth a watch.
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  #14  
Old 07-14-17, 06:20 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
Churchill a great leader? Ask WW I, lol. ..........His actions against the French fleet set off a wave of anti-British sentiment, weakening that country when he could have trusted his allies to do as they said. cIf we'd had fleet there, he would have done the same thing if we didn't turn our ships over to him.
A couple comments: Yeah he messed up with Gallipoli big time. He took the political hit for his mistake and then he did what the great majority of politicians would never have the guts to do, he joined the army, requested a combat command and personally led his men in the field, making 36 attacks against the German positions. In WWII he had no choice but to sink the French fleet. News flash: the Vichy French were not our allies. Vichy was a puppet state of the Germans and the Germans attempted on at least one occasion to commandeer the French Fleet. They would have had a number of ships had not some Free French scuttled the ships themselves before the Germans could take them over. Finally, Churchill was a very flawed man (as was Roosevelt) but there is no doubt he was a great leader in time of war. He and the Royal family did a great deal to keep the nation in the fight under extreme circumstances.

By the way, he was right about the Iron Curtain too.
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