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Old 10-15-18, 04:25 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Arguing against a call that you know was the right call?

Had an interesting situation recently and curious what other people think. Basically, an umpire incorrectly called a player out in a youth level event. The umpire mistakenly thought the bases were loaded and called the runner out at home on a force out. The catcher did not attempt a tag. The coach from the offensive team pointed it out and the umpire corrected his call and said the runner was safe because it wasn't a force. Defensive coach argues that he had to go with his first call and couldn't change it. Amazingly, the umpire agrees with him and rules the runner out again.

After that inning, the coach is coaching third base and joking with the other teams parents about getting that call. Said he knew the runner was safe and can't believe the umpire changed his call back to favor him.

Now I get arguing calls is part of the game. There are plenty of plays where people see things differently. I have no problem with people passionately arguing what they saw.

So the question is, could you argue with an umpire knowing that you are wrong?
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Old 10-15-18, 04:35 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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This situation actually isn't all that uncommon, particularly at the youth level where everyone involved is most times inexperienced with the rules of the game or just being a part of the game. This includes, parents, coaches, and even umpires.

As the coach on offense I would have "argued" the call. Maybe not so much to get the call for me, but to make sure that both the ump and the other coach know a mistake was made. Making sure all parties involved know what happened can possibly help in the future to fix similar situations or maybe even avoid the problem all together.

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Old 10-15-18, 06:57 PM
Baseballfan20 Baseballfan20 is offline
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I am absolutely trying to get the call to go in the favor of my team. The umpires are part of the game and they are human. Heck if you just sound like you know what your talking about they might change the call. Its just another gray area of baseball. Would you tell the umpire you actually missed a tag or you did swing on that check swing? I believe this falls in the same category.
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Old 10-15-18, 07:13 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by Baseballfan20 View Post
I am absolutely trying to get the call to go in the favor of my team. The umpires are part of the game and they are human. Heck if you just sound like you know what your talking about they might change the call. Its just another gray area of baseball. Would you tell the umpire you actually missed a tag or you did swing on that check swing? I believe this falls in the same category.
I've always thought that the players thought they tagged the guy or thought they did check their swing despite what instant replay might show. Plenty of players/coaches are just wrong. It seems like another thing when a player/coach crosses the line to arguing for something they know isn't true.

The recent example of the Mets 3rd baseman fooling the umpire with a fake baseball is a good example. Most people frown on that sort of cheating.
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Old 10-15-18, 07:15 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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The way this situation was described isn't a gray area. Some areas are, this wasn't one of them.

I've always felt that coaches that argue for a call they know to be wrong as terrible competitors. Everyone wants to win - those that enjoy winning that way are spineless.
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Old 10-16-18, 08:32 AM
Peak Peak is offline
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TLR - 12U HC goes ape over an Ump falling down and thinks his call should be reversed. The HC is in the wrong, but never gives in, eventually leading his team to a loss and a lesson in poor sportsmanship.

Sometimes Umps miss it - it happens. During an already heated 12U tournament game, teams were tied in the 5th. Batter up with 2 balls/2 strikes and 2 outs with runners at 1st and 2nd. Batter hits a grounder to shortstop. Routine play, but the SS bobbles the throw and its close at first base but the runner just beat throw. Unfortunately the Ump tripped over the catcher and fell down and saw nothing of the play. By the time he got up, runner was standing on first and the 1B had the ball, bases now loaded. Everyone there was looking at the ump. He looks at the runner and asks him if he was safe. The runner says yes (what else would a 12U boy say? lol) Ump calls him safe. The other team's HC goes nuts, screaming that he was out. The Ump looks at the 1B coach and asks him, to which he said he was safe. Now the parents are up and running to the fence yelling at both the 1B coach and the Ump.

It got to the point that the HC yelling and his Asst coach came out of the dugout and got up in to the Ump's face yelling and pointing. The other team's HC walked over, but stayed back near the dugout. 1B coach stayed where he was, and getting berated by parents. Other teams began to get involved and started looking for the tournament director. The Ump finally gave in to all of the yelling and calls for a "replay" of the at bat. Now the HC who stayed back walks up to the Ump and says he's never heard of such a thing and there is nothing in the rules for a "replay". The HC yelling stormed over to the other HC and gets in his face yelling, "if that's what the Ump says, then that's what we do!" He is determined to get his way.

The tournament director and HCs from other teams in the tournament show up and talk to the ump. They pull in the HCs from the two teams in question, and they agree to do a replay.

Ump starts the at bat over, clean slate. 0 balls, 0 strikes, 2 outs. This sends the HC into another tirade yelling that the batter should start with 2 balls and 2 strikes. The tournament director gets involved again and tells the HC to calm down or he'll be ejected. HC goes back to the dugout fuming.

Batter jacks a triple into left center, plating 2 runs. The batting team goes on to drive in 4 more runs that inning with a 2 out rally. This leaves the opposing HC fuming and still yelling at everyone. He verbally attacked the 1B coach, the players, the other coaches, and even parents across the field. It was completely ridiculous.

Ultimately, that HC lost the game and just walked off the field. He took his team and no one shook hands, they just left. Afterwards, the Ump and the Tournament Director said the HC and his team should have been removed sooner, and that team would not be invited back to any of their tournaments moving forward.
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Old 10-16-18, 02:22 PM
thavoice thavoice is online now
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This can be an interesting subject.

I have successfully had an umpire change a call a few times over the years, through an appeal on the 1st baseman pulling his foot.

The key is to do it respectfully.

I have had an ump change a call going against us and since it was the right call I didn't make much of a fuss about it, simply stated to the umpire that 'don't let them talk you into what to call'.

If it is a judgement call then, well, that is the life of a baseball umpire.

It happens. At every level. Look at Angel Hernendez in the postseason with 3 calls overturned....IN ONE GAME!

If it is a procedural call where they get the interpretation wrong then I will push a little tougher.

One of the longest back and forth I had with an umpire that lasted for much of the game was when we had a runner go past first base. Play wasn't close at all, just your typical thing you see every game.

When the umpire told our baserunner "you know, if they would have came back and tagged you I would have called you out because you TURNED the wrong way. You have to turn to your right shoulder'.
I asked this young umpire what he meant....did he think the runner made an attempt or what.

He said no, just that he turned/pivoted on his left and not his right to come back to the base.

It was an on and on thing the rest of the game where I tried to convince him that he is just plain wrong and wanted to make sure he wasn't going to totally mess something up. By the 5th inning I talked to the HP ump on my way to the dugout because the base ump was just plain wrong.

He did talk to him apparently and the base ump said "we are both right". I let it go at that as I knew that was going to be the most I was going to get out of him admitting he was wrong.

In terms of the young kid games............youth baseball.

I have seen more parents, and coaches, tossed from 12U and below in 3-4 years then I did playing and coaching 10 plus year at the HS level, and it is just embarrassing and most times the calls weren't that bad.

Seems like by the times the kids get to HS level the parents themselves start to learn the game as well and don't make fools of themselves.
I am not sure what makes parents of 8-12 yr old kids go so ballistic at umpires. Bad calls....sure, that happens at every level but man it gets embarrassing for many of these parents and coaches.
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