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  #91  
Old 12-21-17, 01:39 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
KU has the 2nd most tournament wins of any program since 2000 (only UNC has more). But yeah, they're a lousy tournament team.

And what exactly makes their 2008 title a "fluke"?
Memphis choking at the Foul Line, Chalmers hitting that shot... It was a fluke. And ADS' list shows why they're not a good Tournament team. Every year they go in as a high seed and fail to reach the FF.
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  #92  
Old 12-21-17, 02:09 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Duke and Michigan State have both lost to 5 teams at #7 or worse in the same time frame KU has lost to 6. AKA not a huge difference. Why don't people label them as "lousy tournament teams" or "choke artists"?
Was curious so I looked

Duke since 2004:
2004 - #2 UConn def. #1 Duke 79-78 FF
2005 - #5 Michigan State def. #1 Duke 78-68
2006 - #4 LSU def. #1 Duke 62-54
2007 - #11 VCU def. #6 Duke
2008 - #7 West Virginia def. #2 Duke 73-67
2009 - #3 Villanova def. #2 Duke 77-54
2010 - #1 Duke def. #5 Butler 61-59 in NC
2011 - #5 Arizona def. #1 Duke 93-77
2012 - #15 Lehigh def. #2 Duke 75-70
2013 - #1 Louisville def. #2 Duke 85-63
2014 - #14 Mercer def. #3 Duke 78-71
2015 - #1 Duke def. #1 Wisconsin 68-63 in NC
2016 - #1 Oregon def. #4 Duke 82-68
2017 - #7 South Carolina def. #2 Duke 88-81
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  #93  
Old 12-21-17, 02:10 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Duke and Michigan State have both lost to 5 teams at #7 or worse in the same time frame KU has lost to 6. AKA not a huge difference. Why don't people label them as "lousy tournament teams" or "choke artists"?
Michigan State since 2004:
2004 - #10 Nevada def. #7 Michigan State 72-66
2005 - #1 UNC def. #5 Michigan State 87-71
2006 - #11 George Mason def. #6 MSU 75-65
2007 - #1 UNC def. #9 MSU 81-67
2008 - #1 Memphis def. #5 MSU 92-74
2009 - #1 UNC def. #2 MSU 89-72 in NC
2010 - #5 Butler def. #5 MSU 52-50 in FF
2011 - #7 UCLA def. #10 MSU 78-76
2012 - #4 Louisville def. #1 MSU 57-44
2013 - #2 Duke def. #3 MSU 71-61
2014 - #7 UConn def. #4 MSU 60-54
2015 - #1 Duke def. #7 MSU 81-61 FF
2016 - #15 MTSU def. #2 MSU 90-81
2017 - #1 Kansas def. #9 MSU 90-70
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  #94  
Old 12-21-17, 02:12 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
They haven't lost as #1 or 2 seeds. Michigan State is the best Tourney team in college bball. The frequently make deep runs outside of being a Top 3 Seed. They're basically the antithesis of Kansas.
In the last 4 tourneys:
MSU, #2 seed, lost in the 1st round to Middle Tenn.
Duke, #2 seed, lost to #7 in the 2nd round
Duke, #3 seed, lost to #14 Mercer in the first round.
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  #95  
Old 12-21-17, 02:15 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
In the last 4 tourneys:
MSU, #2 seed, lost in the 1st round to Middle Tenn.
Duke, #2 seed, lost to #7 in the 2nd round
Duke, #3 seed, lost to #14 Mercer in the first round.
Exactly. Everyone has some bad losses in the mix. KU is no different.
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  #96  
Old 12-21-17, 02:19 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
Memphis choking at the Foul Line, Chalmers hitting that shot... It was a fluke. And ADS' list shows why they're not a good Tournament team. Every year they go in as a high seed and fail to reach the FF.
So because they had a close game it was a fluke? So any championship team who plays and wins a close tournament game is a fluke?

That list just shows what I have already admitted...KU has a few bad losses. But at the end of the day the facts show that KU has been one of the best and most consistent tournament teams in the new millennium. Your opinion on the subject is duly noted, but when the numbers say the opposite you need to reevaluate your position.

It's OK...you're allowed to be wrong.
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  #97  
Old 12-21-17, 02:47 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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By the numbers:

Average Seed since 2004:
Duke - 2.07
Kansas - 1.92
Michigan State - 5.29

Average Seed to knock them out of tournament:
Duke - 5.36
Kansas - 5.79
Michigan State - 4.86
-If they won the NC we'll count it as 0

Total National Championships by HC at school:
Coach K - Duke - 5
Self - Kansas - 1
Izzo - Michigan State - 1
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  #98  
Old 12-21-17, 04:29 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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To be fair your Duke has only 2 national championships since 2004, the baseline year for your first two stats.

The fact of the matter is not many teams over achieve consistently in the NCAA tourney.
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  #99  
Old 12-21-17, 04:57 PM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
In the last decade KU has...

1 Championship
2 Championship game appearances
3 Final 4's
5 Elite 8's
7 Sweet 16's
10 Conference Championships

If that's underachieving then count me in!
From what I learned a decade is 10 years. Kansas has been to 1 Final Four in 10 seasons and that was 9 years ago. So 1 championship in the 10 years is correct but no Final Four appearances since then(2008). In fact, Kansas haven't been to the sweet sixteen in 5 years. For Kansas to get 3 or 4 "4/5 star" recruits which over a 4-year span, equals at least 5 on the roster per-year and their considered a "blue-blood", they've underachieved. They're not the only "blue-blood' program that has, I criticize them as well but we're talking about Kansas. Bill Self as nice of a guy that he is, is under fire every year for that program underachieving the last few seasons. Some people even question why he's a Hall of Famer.

Winning 10 Conference titles is a nice feat but what does that say about the conference? Name me another great pro-player in the last 20 years from there besides Paul Pierce? Most of Kansas history was made pre 2000 but in the last 10 years not much. The pinnacle is wiining the championship I'll give you that even Final Four appearances but the other stuff, not impressed! Heck Xavier's been to the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in the last 10 seasons, they don't come close to getting the players Kansas get.

Last edited by Zezzo!; 12-21-17 at 05:10 PM..
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  #100  
Old 12-21-17, 05:03 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
From what I learned a decade is 10 years. Kansas has been to 1 Final Four in 10 seasons and that was 9 years ago. So 1 championship in the 10 years is correct but no Final Four appearances since then(2008). In fact, Kansas haven't been to the sweet sixteen in 5 years. For Kansas to get 3 or 4 "4/5 star" recruits which over a 4-year span, equals at least 5 on the roster per-year and their considered a "blue-blood", they've underachieved. Bill Self as nice of a guy that he is, is under fire every year for that program underachieving the last few seasons. Some people even question why he's a Hall of Famer.



Winning 10 Conference titles is a nice feat but what does that say about the conference? Name me another great pro-player in the last 20 years from there besides Paul Pierce? Most of Kansas history was made pre 2000 but in the last 10 years not much. The championship is a given even Final Four appearances but the other stuff, not impressed! Heck Xavier's been to the Sweet Sixteen 4 times in the last 10 they don't come close to getting the players Kansas get.

Hahaha quoting this just so itís on the record how absolutely dead wrong you are.

Might wanna check your sources again.
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  #101  
Old 12-21-17, 05:12 PM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Hahaha quoting this just so itís on the record how absolutely dead wrong you are.

Might wanna check your sources again.
I speak facts buddy, you might wanna check yours......
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  #102  
Old 12-21-17, 05:13 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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they have been to elite 8 the past two seasons and had a sweet 16 appearance 5 years ago. Not sure how he missed that when looking it up.

Also they definitely have had a final four appearance since 2008. They played UK for the national championship. The past 10 years they have been to 2 final fours.

You are way off
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  #103  
Old 12-21-17, 05:14 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
I speak facts buddy, you might wanna check yours......
Let's start here..."Kansas haven't been to the sweet sixteen in 5 years"

Fact check: KU was in the Elite 8 literally last year.
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  #104  
Old 12-21-17, 05:15 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
they have been to elite 8 the past two seasons and had a sweet 16 appearance 5 years ago. Not sure how he missed that when looking it up.
He's not even correct on Final 4's though. KU went to the title game in 2012.

EDIT: ah, I see you edited your post.
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  #105  
Old 12-21-17, 05:15 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kans...9;s_basketball
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  #106  
Old 12-21-17, 05:16 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
He's not even correct on Final 4's though. KU went to the title game in 2012.
I edited I misread him. I thought he said they had been to one final four since then.
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  #107  
Old 12-21-17, 05:18 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
I edited I misread him. I thought he said they had been to one final four since then.
You're good.
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  #108  
Old 12-21-17, 05:33 PM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Let's start here..."Kansas haven't been to the sweet sixteen in 5 years"

Fact check: KU was in the Elite 8 literally last year.
Ok you got that too, they've still underachieved that's the point. Did they win any trophies? They had three McDonald's All-Americans and 2 4-star recruits.
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  #109  
Old 12-21-17, 05:56 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
Ok you got that too, they've still underachieved that's the point. Did they win any trophies? They had three McDonald's All-Americans and 2 4-star recruits.
I mean, yes. They won the Big 12 for the 13th straight year. What 3 players are you thinking of? Azubuike and Jackson were the only 2 on the active roster.
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  #110  
Old 12-21-17, 06:57 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
So because they had a close game it was a fluke? So any championship team who plays and wins a close tournament game is a fluke?

That list just shows what I have already admitted...KU has a few bad losses. But at the end of the day the facts show that KU has been one of the best and most consistent tournament teams in the new millennium. Your opinion on the subject is duly noted, but when the numbers say the opposite you need to reevaluate your position.

It's OK...you're allowed to be wrong.
It's more than a few. And even losses you might not consider "bad" are still failures. Look at how they choked v Oregon just last year. Every year they're a 1 seed and never get to the FF, sans 2012, where ironically, they overachieved. Mich St, Wisky, and Xavier are vastly superior Tournament teams.
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  #111  
Old 12-21-17, 07:01 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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And yes, Memphis pissing that game away at the Foul Line coupled with Chalmers shot was a fluke. Face it, Kansas is fake good every year. Only idiots think winning the B12 every year means a god dam thing.
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  #112  
Old 12-21-17, 07:03 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
In the last 4 tourneys:
MSU, #2 seed, lost in the 1st round to Middle Tenn.
Duke, #2 seed, lost to #7 in the 2nd round
Duke, #3 seed, lost to #14 Mercer in the first round.
MSU is allowed one year where the choke. I just have no idea why people keep getting suckered into picking Kansas to win the Title EVERY year.
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  #113  
Old 12-21-17, 07:14 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
It's more than a few. And even losses you might not consider "bad" are still failures. Look at how they choked v Oregon just last year. Every year they're a 1 seed and never get to the FF, sans 2012, where ironically, they overachieved. Mich St, Wisky, and Xavier are vastly superior Tournament teams.
Based on what metric? Your opinion?
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  #114  
Old 12-21-17, 07:25 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
And yes, Memphis pissing that game away at the Foul Line coupled with Chalmers shot was a fluke. Face it, Kansas is fake good every year. Only idiots think winning the B12 every year means a god dam thing.
FYI (not that stats actually matter to you)...

Memphis ranked 329th in free throw percentage that year. They actually shot above their season average from the line that night.
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  #115  
Old 12-21-17, 07:28 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Stats: KU is one of the best and most consistent tournament teams in recent history.
Opinions: Yeah but KU blows! You know it! I know it! We all know it!
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  #116  
Old 12-21-17, 07:35 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Stats: KU is one of the best and most consistent tournament teams in recent history.
Opinions: Yeah but KU blows! You know it! I know it! We all know it!
Stats, they haven't won a title in a decade. Also stats, they've been at least a 2 seed every year since '09... One Final Four
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  #117  
Old 12-21-17, 07:38 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Based on what metric? Your opinion?
Recent history and seeding.
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  #118  
Old 12-21-17, 07:40 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox...517%3famp=true
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  #119  
Old 12-21-17, 07:43 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
Recent history and seeding.
What makes them vastly superior?
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  #120  
Old 12-21-17, 07:46 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
What makes them vastly superior?
In MSU and Wisky's case, actually getting to multiple Final Fours. In Xavier's case, it's going to the Elite multiple times despite never bring higher than a 3 Seed.

6 times under Self, Kansas has been a #1 seed and not gotten to a FF. That's the work of a choke artist.
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