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  #1  
Old 09-08-18, 10:07 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Ray Allen " I am not very talented"

I always hate when elite athletes say they just worked hard.

Ray Allen HOF Speech
"I don't believe in talent. I'm here because I worked hard all my life," Allen said. "Without that work, no one in this room would know who I am besides my family. So to all the kids around the world watching, paying attention and aspiring to be like one of us, or even on this stage one day, put the work in and watch the magical ride you'll go on."

No Ray, your there because your 6'5' and had a 40 inch vertical when you were younger. I get the message and its valuable, but if Ray Allen was 6'1 and a 30 inch vertical, we have no idea who he is, no matter how hard he worked.

Too many kids now days dont realize you can work for 10 hours a day, and if your measurable and specs are not elite, it really does not matter. This is sad.
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  #2  
Old 09-08-18, 03:04 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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slaps forehead.

A person doesn't know their genetic abilities until the hard work is done. Shown time and time again how our personal and cultural stereotypes limit us, if we let them. We just do not know their possibilities or their limitations. That's why we have sports and research. 6'5" is 6'5" I'll grant you but we've all seen 6'5" come from less than tall parents. Or bloom late. We've seen the 6'5" that didn't get there.

With a Ray Allen, I don't think we're talking the far tails of genetics as we probably are with someone like James or Einstein. Certainly he is biased towards that end but I think all credit should be given. I don't think I get could myself to believe there are none in the HOF with average genetics or that average genetics can't result in a superior athlete.

Attaining major sports isn't someone going for some obscure Guinness record. Basketball has an immense triaging system. Gifted or not, those that succeed, they work hard.
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  #3  
Old 09-08-18, 03:27 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I get both ends of this.

A high percentage of the world will NEVER play in the NBA no matter how much work they put into it. Being in the NBA has as much to do with genetics as being a jockey in horse racing.

With that said, there are a bunch of 6'5" guys who played basketball and never reached their full potential. They struggled physically or mentally to rise to this level. Some may have peaked in HS, some made it to college and fizzled out. There are even some that had success in college but couldn't figure out how to make it to the NBA. Most that did make it to the NBA were blessed with genetics and an incredible work ethic.
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  #4  
Old 09-08-18, 04:11 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Well that's part of the discussion for the nature proponents: that the work ethic is genetic. I think it a misdirection. The question is, will the average genetic, whether the contribution be to physical or mental skills be enough with the right nurture, to compete in the top of any field. I think it is. It might not be enough to be the top, but it can get you on the same field or in the same lab.


And I just believe nurture to be the more reliable and valuable, when times get tough. There's a lot of really good genetics living on the street or Ma's basement or worse, blogging.
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  #5  
Old 09-08-18, 04:29 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
The question is, will the average genetic, whether the contribution be to physical or mental skills be enough with the right nurture, to compete in the top of any field. I think it is. It might not be enough to be the top, but it can get you on the same field or in the same lab.
I think the NBA is different. Genetics can exclude you.

Overall, I like the message but it's coming from a sport that favors size to an extreme (much like jockeys). It muddies the message. There are other people who could stand on a similar stage where the message would resonate a little better.
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  #6  
Old 09-08-18, 06:51 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Yappi, pick up the phone: someone named "Spud" is calling. You may have a point about jockey's though. Shaq could slim all he wanted and he would still suck at that.
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  #7  
Old 09-09-18, 04:50 AM
Raymo Raymo is offline
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Got to give Ray credit,he was smart enough not to come play with LBJ in The Land.
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  #8  
Old 09-09-18, 10:52 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I think the NBA is different. Genetics can exclude you.

Overall, I like the message but it's coming from a sport that favors size to an extreme (much like jockeys). It muddies the message. There are other people who could stand on a similar stage where the message would resonate a little better.
I can not think of a professional sport right now that does not require a majority of talent to come from physicsl/dna prowless.

This is less true as you go down the sports levels ( college ) and ending with HS were work alone you can find success.
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  #9  
Old 09-09-18, 02:44 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
I can not think of a professional sport right now that does not require a majority of talent to come from physicsl/dna prowless.

This is less true as you go down the sports levels ( college ) and ending with HS were work alone you can find success.

We can presume you're correct and still not know who has that dna and who doesn't. Or how much and of what type is needed to "succeed" at the elite level. So is there any value to the nature argument to anyone other than Mengele?
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  #10  
Old 09-11-18, 10:31 AM
Unlimited Potential Unlimited Potential is offline
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450 Players are in the NBA

The average height is 6'7" with a 7 foot wingspan and very large hands.
Most have natural elite vertical leap and or quickness.

Many, not all have good to great work ethic as well, or at least did prior to entering the league.

Ray Allen with a Johnny Manziel work ethic - he is right, we would have not know him, but he probably still would have been D1. If he were shorter and an average athlete, with the same work ethic, we could have watch him set some records at John Carroll - but he isn't a pro.

To get in that top 450 and make it to the NBA, odds show you have to have both. Sure there are some guys who have made it with terrible work ethic, but none lasted very long.
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  #11  
Old 09-13-18, 07:40 AM
ELKSTWO ELKSTWO is offline
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I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
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  #12  
Old 09-13-18, 09:21 AM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELKSTWO View Post
I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
Watch for it!........
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  #13  
Old 09-13-18, 11:39 AM
ammtd34 ammtd34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELKSTWO View Post
I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
There's a lot going on here.
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  #14  
Old 09-14-18, 07:01 AM
ICALLITLIKEI ICALLITLIKEI is offline
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Hard Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
I always hate when elite athletes say they just worked hard.

Ray Allen HOF Speech
"I don't believe in talent. I'm here because I worked hard all my life," Allen said. "Without that work, no one in this room would know who I am besides my family. So to all the kids around the world watching, paying attention and aspiring to be like one of us, or even on this stage one day, put the work in and watch the magical ride you'll go on."

No Ray, your there because your 6'5' and had a 40 inch vertical when you were younger. I get the message and its valuable, but if Ray Allen was 6'1 and a 30 inch vertical, we have no idea who he is, no matter how hard he worked.

Too many kids now days dont realize you can work for 10 hours a day, and if your measurable and specs are not elite, it really does not matter. This is sad.


6'5 and 40 Inch might get you noticed but its all about the work you put in. Plenty of 6'5" 40 inch vertical players not in the league let alone in the HOF.

hundreds or thousands of shots or more per day and as your pregame routine is puttin in work! but talent does matter but not without hard work.

And the point is about giving yourself the opportunity by putting in hard work. The less work you put in lowers your chances at the opportunity to be successful.
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  #15  
Old 09-15-18, 12:19 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELKSTWO View Post
You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop

Watch out for bulls Silas!
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  #16  
Old 09-15-18, 01:09 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ELKSTWO View Post
I disagree with most of you. There's no requirement on height to be an nba player. I remember watching rayveion hargravel last year for the trotwood rams. Yeah I know it mightve been football but that boy had a lot of heart. Heart over height is what he always said. You don't need to be over 6 foot and black to be a professional ball player. You gotta be willing to get down on your hands and knees and really go balls to the wall for 12 hours of the day if you wanna make it. I think Ray allen sucks too by the way. You guys wanna know a real workhorse, his name is silas woodcock whitaker. He used to play ball at mechanicsburg and he knew what it meant to be a real workhorse. He was like a bowl in a china shop
He was a thing of beauty but fragile?


East, you made a comment above about work ethic being nurture vs nature? As a parent, that is really an intriguing question. We had several children all raised in the same way, same values etc. No two were the same, but the effort and determination showed at 3 years of age was the same displayed at 20 in every case. Makes me believe even effort is largely genetic, it is who you are. We have one highly aggressive child and another very laid back.

As for finding out where your talent lies in the great pool of life, I worked my butt off, and thought as many young kids do that hard work would pay off handsomely. I was ready to prove my arrival so I went to the Bomburger gym on fifth street in Dayton, where all the good inner city kids played. I was chosen to match up vs a kid named Ron Harper, played for some team up near lake Erie. Ron was about to learn a valuable lesson.


Well......I found out I really was not ready for Ron, or most anyone playing there, so I focused on what I could REALLY do, academics.

It is interesting how many 4th -6th grade kids expect to make it big someday. As a coach, you just grin inside and go about preparing them as best you can, for that one day when they decide they are ready for Ron.
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  #17  
Old 09-17-18, 01:39 PM
ELKSTWO ELKSTWO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
He was a thing of beauty but fragile?


East, you made a comment above about work ethic being nurture vs nature? As a parent, that is really an intriguing question. We had several children all raised in the same way, same values etc. No two were the same, but the effort and determination showed at 3 years of age was the same displayed at 20 in every case. Makes me believe even effort is largely genetic, it is who you are. We have one highly aggressive child and another very laid back.

As for finding out where your talent lies in the great pool of life, I worked my butt off, and thought as many young kids do that hard work would pay off handsomely. I was ready to prove my arrival so I went to the Bomburger gym on fifth street in Dayton, where all the good inner city kids played. I was chosen to match up vs a kid named Ron Harper, played for some team up near lake Erie. Ron was about to learn a valuable lesson.


Well......I found out I really was not ready for Ron, or most anyone playing there, so I focused on what I could REALLY do, academics.

It is interesting how many 4th -6th grade kids expect to make it big someday. As a coach, you just grin inside and go about preparing them as best you can, for that one day when they decide they are ready for Ron.
"ready for ron" You should get your boys ready for woodcock, cuz woodcock is coming he always is.
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  #18  
Old 10-08-18, 03:36 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICALLITLIKEI View Post
6'5 and 40 Inch might get you noticed but its all about the work you put in. Plenty of 6'5" 40 inch vertical players not in the league let alone in the HOF.

hundreds or thousands of shots or more per day and as your pregame routine is puttin in work! but talent does matter but not without hard work.

And the point is about giving yourself the opportunity by putting in hard work. The less work you put in lowers your chances at the opportunity to be successful.
Agreed. People who believe talent is the end all when it to comes sports either never played sports or just plain lazy and use lack of talent as an excuse.
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  #19  
Old 10-15-18, 10:11 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Check out Ray Allen's early NBA career highlights. He was certainly talented.

People remember him as just a 3 point marksman, but dude was crazy athletic when he came into the league.

I'm sure he worked very hard, but he was crazy good.
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