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  #121  
Old 08-30-18, 12:13 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by CARDINAL View Post
They are the absolute definition of a monopoly
There are tournament all year round for sports and in many different areas of the state. If you have access to the internet you can find many forms of tournaments.
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  #122  
Old 08-30-18, 12:40 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Those schools you mentioned would not be increased by the CB. IF a student attends a a catholic school their entire life and the schools below the high school level are listed as a feeder school then they will be listed as a Tier 0 and no additional calculation is added.
You seem to think that a Catholic school can have more than one designated feeder school. That is not correct. In fact, probably 75% of the Catholic elementary schools in Ohio are excluded by CBP from being designated as feeder schools to Catholic high schools. That is because there are at least four times as many Catholic elementary schools as high schools in the state, and each Catholic high school is limited to one feeder school.

That is what the argument about Tier 1 is about. Over half of the kids who attend Catholic grade schools are automatically multiplied if they attend Catholic high schools, but not multiplied if they attend public high schools.

Tell me - what does that have to do with recruiting? How is that anywhere close to fair?
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  #123  
Old 08-30-18, 01:04 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
You seem to think that a Catholic school can have more than one designated feeder school. That is not correct. In fact, probably 75% of the Catholic elementary schools in Ohio are excluded by CBP from being designated as feeder schools to Catholic high schools. That is because there are at least four times as many Catholic elementary schools as high schools in the state, and each Catholic high school is limited to one feeder school.

That is what the argument about Tier 1 is about. Over half of the kids who attend Catholic grade schools are automatically multiplied if they attend Catholic high schools, but not multiplied if they attend public high schools.

Tell me - what does that have to do with recruiting? How is that anywhere close to fair?
To be fair, Spirit is very well aware of the rule regarding Catholic feeder schools. He and I were having a back and forth where we were discussing a scenario where a Catholic HS could have multiple feeders of local Catholic grade schools while basing CB on student athletes who come from the public schools to the privates. I think some of the posts calling him out are misinterpreting his comments in that discussion as a lack of understanding of the current rule.
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  #124  
Old 08-30-18, 02:44 PM
micketty micketty is offline
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I thought that a private school had to pick a public school district as what is being referred to as a "feeder" school. So in Hamilton Badin's case they choose Hamilton public schools as their district. Which actually has three catholic grade schools located within their boundaries. Granted these three schools combined probably provide Badin with 25-30 male students per year. Sacred Heart which is located in Fairfield and Queen of Peace located in the Ross district have always provided Badin with an equal amount of students and are now seen as multipliers.
Can anyone clarify that stipulation? That it is a district, but not just one grade school. Hamilton in the past 25 or so years has gone from 7 of these grade schools to now 3, two of which are quite small.
I would imagine Alter would pick either Centerville or Kettering?
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  #125  
Old 08-30-18, 02:48 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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One thing that I'm not quite sure everyone understands is that the multiplier is only applied to those that are participating on the team. The basketball team can have 0 added while the football team could have an adjustment of 75.

Not every kid from a "non-feeder" school is in the CB adjustment. Only those that are playing a particular sport.
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  #126  
Old 08-30-18, 02:53 PM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDINAL View Post
I don't agree.

You want to win an Ohio Sate Championship, you must be in the OHSAA.

They have, by far (I'm sure well over 95% of the schools that participate in Football)

That's a monopoly
That's not really true. There's no law saying that only the OHSAA can deem a state champion. Any organization could start a tournament and deem the winner of that tournament the state champs. Would it have the public clout of an OHSAA title? No, but that doesn't really matter in terms of a monopoly. The NFL doesn't have a monopoly on football just because no one cares about the XFL.
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  #127  
Old 08-30-18, 02:54 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
You seem to think that a Catholic school can have more than one designated feeder school. That is not correct. In fact, probably 75% of the Catholic elementary schools in Ohio are excluded by CBP from being designated as feeder schools to Catholic high schools. That is because there are at least four times as many Catholic elementary schools as high schools in the state, and each Catholic high school is limited to one feeder school.

That is what the argument about Tier 1 is about. Over half of the kids who attend Catholic grade schools are automatically multiplied if they attend Catholic high schools, but not multiplied if they attend public high schools.

Tell me - what does that have to do with recruiting? How is that anywhere close to fair?
It would appear that maybe you are not fully understanding the CB rule and the way it works. A Catholic High School can in fact have more than 1 designated feeder school. What the argument has been about is that some private schools want ALL lower level schools to be their feeders. The CB does put a limit to them but allows the High School to pick and choose the ones they want. It also allows a feeder school to be listed as a feeder school for more than one high school.
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  #128  
Old 08-30-18, 03:00 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by CARDINAL View Post
I don't agree.

You want to win an Ohio Sate Championship, you must be in the OHSAA.

That's a monopoly
You do not have to agree but you are wrong. A monopoly means you have no other options. There are many options a team can play games. That particular tournament title was created by them. If you would want to win Bob's State Title you would have to get into Bob'S tournament. That does not mean that Bob has a monopoly.
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  #129  
Old 08-30-18, 03:05 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
It would appear that maybe you are not fully understanding the CB rule and the way it works. A Catholic High School can in fact have more than 1 designated feeder school. What the argument has been about is that some private schools want ALL lower level schools to be their feeders. The CB does put a limit to them but allows the High School to pick and choose the ones they want. It also allows a feeder school to be listed as a feeder school for more than one high school.
This needs to be clarified, as I don't know the answer.

Here are my questions - presumably public schools can designate their entire district as feeders regardless of how many physical "schools" there are. Someone let me know if this isn't true.

If you are correct that private schools can designate more than one school as a feeder, but not every school, how many can they designate? More than one but less than 50? Could someone who actually knows clarify this?
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  #130  
Old 08-30-18, 03:08 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
You do not have to agree but you are wrong. A monopoly means you have no other options. There are many options a team can play games. That particular tournament title was created by them. If you would want to win Bob's State Title you would have to get into Bob'S tournament. That does not mean that Bob has a monopoly.
Frankly, I think you are both wrong. More importantly, you are arguing a completely irrelevant point (and I have litigated antitrust cases). Whether or not the OHSAA has a monopoly in doling out state championships doesn't matter.

The only question/issue is whether or not the publics and privates are going to compete for the same titles or different ones. That is all this is about. And if they are going to compete for the same titles (which, I think, most of us prefer), what rules make sense, or at least appease the most number of schools, to get that done.
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  #131  
Old 08-30-18, 03:15 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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A non-public school can designate the entire district of any public school as their attendance zone and all feeder schools inside that area will be listed as their feeder schools. Multiple non-public high schools can list the same attendance zone using the same feeder schools. And that district can have 1 or 50 feeder schools inside of it.
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  #132  
Old 08-30-18, 03:17 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Frankly, I think you are both wrong. More importantly, you are arguing a completely irrelevant point (and I have litigated antitrust cases).
I agree. (and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night)
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  #133  
Old 08-30-18, 03:42 PM
playboi12 playboi12 is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Frankly, I think you are both wrong. More importantly, you are arguing a completely irrelevant point (and I have litigated antitrust cases). Whether or not the OHSAA has a monopoly in doling out state championships doesn't matter.

The only question/issue is whether or not the publics and privates are going to compete for the same titles or different ones. That is all this is about. And if they are going to compete for the same titles (which, I think, most of us prefer), what rules make sense, or at least appease the most number of schools, to get that done.
Ohh man! I still have nightmares about my anti-trust final from 3L year. Thank heavens I don't have to go through that again. Haha
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  #134  
Old 08-30-18, 04:48 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
It would appear that maybe you are not fully understanding the CB rule and the way it works. A Catholic High School can in fact have more than 1 designated feeder school. What the argument has been about is that some private schools want ALL lower level schools to be their feeders. The CB does put a limit to them but allows the High School to pick and choose the ones they want. It also allows a feeder school to be listed as a feeder school for more than one high school.
No it doesn't. It allows Catholic high schools to designate one public school district or in a district with multiple public high schools, an "attendance zone" based on the public high school areas within a district, and then choose its feeder school from that district or attendance zone.

Most Catholic high schools are forced to choose a single feeder school from one public school district or public school attendance zone. As a practical matter, there aren't going to be enough students in an attendance zone that a public school has chosen for one of its high schools for more than one Catholic high school to choose that attendance zone. So it doesn't matter what the rule says. It's hard to imagine an attendance zone where two Catholic high schools will both choose it for a feeder school.

In Cincinnati, Roger Bacon says it gets kids from 36 different Catholic grade schools. If only 110 kids are in each class at Bacon, that means that a couple of schools send 10 or more to Bacon, and maybe one or two students will go to Bacon from the other grade schools. Roger Bacon needs all the kids who go there from all the feeder schools, since it wouldn't have enough students for a viable high school otherwise. Some of those schools only send a small number of kids to small Catholic schools, and many go to the large D1 Catholic schools, and some go to public schools or charter schools, other private schools, etc. What Cincinnati Public Schools "attendance zones" have to do with Cincinnati Catholic Schools beats me.

Let's say Bacon's designated feeder Catholic grade school(s) send(s) 15 boys in a class to Bacon.

Out of 55 boys in a 110 student class, that means that 40 come from other Catholic schools or somewhere else. If 18 from a class play football, about 73% (40/55) or 13 of them are then multiplied for each class (three classes are counted, totaling a multiplier of 39).

So, instead of 170 boys in the lower three grades, it's now 209. Add in double multipliers for maybe 2 students who play football, but come from outside the Cincinnati area Catholic schools, and you get to 213, instead of the true 170.

If you eliminate the 39 that result from multiplying Catholic elementary school kids, you still have a CBP adjustment of 4, which would place Bacon at 172 instead of the 168 from Catholic grade schools that it really has. Bacon would be in DV, not DIV, for football.

I'm not privy to the actual Bacon numbers, but I would bet the above numbers are in the ball park. That's what the lawsuit is about. It's NOT about taking kids from public schools or rounding up all the football players in Cincinnati. Moeller, X, Elder and LaSalle do a fine job of that, and except for LaSalle they aren't affected by CBP, much less by Tier 1.

If you think 36 feeder schools, with probably a total of providing 110 students, is unfair to any Cincinnati Public Schools District school, where there are 36,000 students, and parents can choose the schools where their children attend, and none of them are multiplied, you're not living in the real world. Some of those schools are in the top public schools in the country, and some are not.

It's ridiculous to multiply the number of kids who come from Catholic schools, outside of public school districts or "attendance zones", which have nothing to do with Catholic high schools.
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  #135  
Old 08-30-18, 04:51 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
A non-public school can designate the entire district of any public school as their attendance zone and all feeder schools inside that area will be listed as their feeder schools. Multiple non-public high schools can list the same attendance zone using the same feeder schools. And that district can have 1 or 50 feeder schools inside of it.
Name any public school attendance zone with anything close to 50 Catholic grade schools within it.

And how many Catholic grade school kids go to public high schools? How about we double or triple count those for the public schools?
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  #136  
Old 08-30-18, 05:01 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Again, this rule was not meant to be fair or correct an issue. I was meant to push some of the smaller schools into divisions where there is no way they can compete for the state championship. The schools that most people have the biggest complaints about "recruiting" or having a much larger net to cast to collect talent are so big that this rule has no bearing on them. Badin will never be able to compete in D1 baseball. The D2 and D3 schools just don't want Badin their division.
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  #137  
Old 08-30-18, 05:03 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
It's ridiculous to multiply the number of kids who come from Catholic schools, outside of public school districts or "attendance zones", which have nothing to do with Catholic high schools.
At the risk of sounding like I am arguing both sides of this (which I am), its not ridiculous if your goal is to pump most private schools up a division (or even two) while not affecting public schools. And if this is what is necessary to prevent Ohio from having separate public and private school organizations, then I guess it is a necessary evil. On this point, I would caution that Roger Bacon (and others) be careful what they wish for because in a separate Public/Private regime, there are probably only 2, maybe three divisions for football (probably 2 for everything else) and Bacon may have its hopes of winning a state championship go from small to almost non-existent.

Having said that, as I have said before, I think the publics are focusing too much on the aspect of "unfairness" that they seem to think is the worst factor - open enrollment, recruiting, and "poaching" kids that they think "belong" in their districts. There may be some instances where this is true, but I think it is largely NOT the case in southwest Ohio.

For what it's worth, I have a son attending public grade school who will attend public grade school all the way up to grade 8. He will then go to St. X. He may play soccer. He will not be recruited or poached or stolen. He was NEVER going to go to the public high school - ever. He was always going to go to St. X.

In any event, I think if the issue is competitive balance, why don't we just do exactly that - balance teams based upon how well they have historically competed over a certain time. It could be completely "blind" process as to whether or not the school is public or private. Its simple - you dominate or do very well over a period of years, you move up. You do poorly or barely compete over a period of years, you move down.

It's funny, because I believe that many, many of the people vociferously in favor of the current "competitive balance" would all of a sudden hate the idea when it comes to ACTUAL competitive balance.
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  #138  
Old 08-30-18, 05:15 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Is their any research the OHSAA did to move dominating programs up based on performance alone. it appears Indiana schools welcome the opportunity to move up based on performance. Illinois look to be doing this as well. Sorry if this is redundant but why not test yourself ?
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  #139  
Old 08-30-18, 06:09 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
Is their any research the OHSAA did to move dominating programs up based on performance alone. it appears Indiana schools welcome the opportunity to move up based on performance. Illinois look to be doing this as well. Sorry if this is redundant but why not test yourself ?
It's not redundant and I agree. But as I have always said, being a fan of a D1 school that will always be D1 (and would be Super D1 if such a division ever existed, ala KY), I can't speak for them.

I thought of one compromise that might work and make everybody happy (or at least happier). Why not use the current competitive balance formula and then allow schools to appeal (or not be "balanced") if they can show that they have no significant advantage on the playing field. Once again, this would be sport-by-sport.

This way, schools like Toledo Central Catholic, Hartley, and Mooney would get balanced whereas schools like Roger Bacon (in football) wouldn't be. Further Roger Bacon could still get balanced in basketball (which is probably fair).
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  #140  
Old 08-30-18, 06:20 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
It's not redundant and I agree. But as I have always said, being a fan of a D1 school that will always be D1 (and would be Super D1 if such a division ever existed, ala KY), I can't speak for them.

I thought of one compromise that might work and make everybody happy (or at least happier). Why not use the current competitive balance formula and then allow schools to appeal (or not be "balanced") if they can show that they have no significant advantage on the playing field. Once again, this would be sport-by-sport.

This way, schools like Toledo Central Catholic, Hartley, and Mooney would get balanced whereas schools like Roger Bacon (in football) wouldn't be. Further Roger Bacon could still get balanced in basketball (which is probably fair).
That makes sense if they would get an agreement from schools like Bacon to allow sport specific formulas. Maybe this was brought up in past meetings and balked at.
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  #141  
Old 08-30-18, 08:24 PM
smurfyeah19 smurfyeah19 is offline
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Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
It's not Central's fault that Toledo public failed these kids. They're taking a ~$3500 hit per kid between voucher value and TCOA and if Gallagher, Mercy, and all the rich white people hogging up all the parking spots on the property are footing that bill, I say good for them. Beats treating the kids like garbage. Dempsey and the coaches and everyone else in that system are giving these kids a fighting chance to escape a system that has sentenced them to perpetual, generational poverty and doesn't care. There's a lot of uplifting going on at Cherry St and it's real. Sure not every individual story ends with sunshine and unicorns, but they're trying. Only a cruel cynical person would complain that they win games in the process. If the other teams aren't taking these kids in, then the good frer Ockham's razor can cut right through to the reason.


Iím not mad Central wins lol Iím just saying they shouldnít be D4
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  #142  
Old 08-31-18, 11:16 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
That makes sense if they would get an agreement from schools like Bacon to allow sport specific formulas. Maybe this was brought up in past meetings and balked at.
It is my understanding it already is sport-specific.
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  #143  
Old 08-31-18, 11:27 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by smurfyeah19 View Post
Iím not mad Central wins lol Iím just saying they shouldnít be D4
They've been competing just fine with a D-II regular season schedule since the 7th division was added, so D-II playoffs is where they belong. I do think that a team that plays a division (or two) up in the regular season should follow suit in the post season. There's no good reason to quit challenging oneself when the playoffs start just to improve the chances of getting a trophy. I'm in favor of what Graham chose to do in wrestling - man up.
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  #144  
Old 09-01-18, 02:31 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
Name any public school attendance zone with anything close to 50 Catholic grade schools within it.

And how many Catholic grade school kids go to public high schools? How about we double or triple count those for the public schools?
Hey jocko, the point was there is no number limit.
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  #145  
Old 09-06-18, 06:49 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Saw on the basketball website that the parents are now getting involved. Here's a link to a story about the parents of a soccer player/ swimmer who are taking OHSAA to court in Lucas County arguing against the application of the transfer rule.

http://www.toledoblade.com/High-Scho...es/20180904210
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  #146  
Old 09-06-18, 07:04 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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This may simply be an example of a rich man thinking the rules do not apply to him.
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  #147  
Old 09-06-18, 09:29 AM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Hey jocko, the point was there is no number limit.
As a practical matter, there certainly is. There is probably no Catholic high school in the state that can survive within only one public school district. How many parents can afford to pay the freight, when there's a free (to them) alternative next door? Catholic schools have to have large areas from which to draw, just in order to have the small student populations they are able to have.

So Tier 1 is simply a ruse, to be used to multiply Catholic kids who attend Catholic schools. That's how you can be nasty, and get most Catholic schools bumped up a notch or two, without being officially nasty.
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  #148  
Old 09-06-18, 10:22 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
As a practical matter, there certainly is. There is probably no Catholic high school in the state that can survive within only one public school district. How many parents can afford to pay the freight, when there's a free (to them) alternative next door? Catholic schools have to have large areas from which to draw, just in order to have the small student populations they are able to have.

So Tier 1 is simply a ruse, to be used to multiply Catholic kids who attend Catholic schools. That's how you can be nasty, and get most Catholic schools bumped up a notch or two, without being officially nasty.
Yes, as said many, many times. The whole system WAS DESIGNED to bump PRIVATE (mostly Catholic, but not entirely by any means) up a division in most sports. Nobody is arguing that point (or at least, nobody with any credibility and/or intelligence).
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  #149  
Old 09-06-18, 10:47 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
As a practical matter, there certainly is. There is probably no Catholic high school in the state that can survive within only one public school district. How many parents can afford to pay the freight, when there's a free (to them) alternative next door? Catholic schools have to have large areas from which to draw, just in order to have the small student populations they are able to have.

So Tier 1 is simply a ruse, to be used to multiply Catholic kids who attend Catholic schools. That's how you can be nasty, and get most Catholic schools bumped up a notch or two, without being officially nasty.
Nobody is asking a Catholic High School to risk survival. Every Catholic High School still has the same large area to draw from as they always have.
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  #150  
Old 09-06-18, 10:58 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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In my own words, the CB was designed to calculate athletes that change districts after 7th grade in a way to try and discourage a few schools from organizing rosters dishonestly. This is applied to all schools private and public. Most private schools will not change the division of their sport's participation with OHSAA. There is nothing that says any student cannot attend a private school anywhere that wants to improve themselves academically. But when it comes to the privilege of athletics, there are rules that were voted on by all schools in OHSAA.
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