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  #91  
Old 08-29-18, 09:10 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Those schools you mentioned would not be increased by the CB. IF a student attends a a catholic school their entire life and the schools below the high school level are listed as a feeder school then they will be listed as a Tier 0 and no additional calculation is added.
But that would only be IF CB was changed to allow high schools to select more than one feeder school system.
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  #92  
Old 08-29-18, 09:11 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by smurfyeah19 View Post
I think what is forgotten is that it is called balance. A perfect example is Toledo Central Catholic who is arguably the best team in NW Ohio period. Throw them in D4 and the playoffs in their region could probably be used in court for attempted manslaughter that’s how bad it would be. This system isn’t perfect but it’s needed to balance out some of these large mismatches
Yes, but large mismatches occur for public schools as well. What is being done to competitively balance them?

Furthermore, teams that aren't creating large mismatch problems (and may not even be competitive in the division they are already in) are getting moved up for no reason. How do you solve that?

By the way - these two questions literally are the only questions that are important/need to be discussed in any competitive balance conversation.
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  #93  
Old 08-29-18, 09:18 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
I do. Why does a small number of teams winning a lot signify that there's a problem? Why do we need to do anything?
Is that the point you are making - fine. I agree, we (or more importantly, the OHSAA) doesn't NEED to do anything at all.

In the same vein, we don't NEED 7 divisions (or even 2). We don't NEED transfer rules. I could go on ...

The issue isn't whether something NEEDS to be done or not. The question is whether or not the public school members of the OHSAA would vote out the private school members without this type of regulation.
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  #94  
Old 08-29-18, 09:23 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by invader03 View Post
I would have had separate divisions for privates and public schools years ago.
This is the only thing about your post that matters.

The rest of your post is pretty much untrue - but, given your last statement, makes sense.
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  #95  
Old 08-29-18, 09:42 AM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Is that the point you are making - fine. I agree, we (or more importantly, the OHSAA) doesn't NEED to do anything at all.

In the same vein, we don't NEED 7 divisions (or even 2). We don't NEED transfer rules. I could go on ...

The issue isn't whether something NEEDS to be done or not. The question is whether or not the public school members of the OHSAA would vote out the private school members without this type of regulation.
I've never seen any indication that the public schools in favor of a split are anything but a tiny minority.
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  #96  
Old 08-29-18, 10:37 AM
Percidae Percidae is offline
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I propose two simple rules for private school divisional assignment:

1. Division assignment should be no less than the highest division public school within a 30 mile radius of the location of the private school.
2. The ratio of marching band members to football roster members should be no less than 1:1.
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  #97  
Old 08-29-18, 10:55 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
I've never seen any indication that the public schools in favor of a split are anything but a tiny minority.
Not sure what that number would be. Doubt it is a "tiny minority." In fact, Joe Scalzo said "Although the OHSAA schools voted against split tournaments in 1979 and 1993, there seems to be momentum toward a split."

Regardless, there is one number I am sure of - 56% - 44% - namely the percentage of schools that voted for the current competitive balance formula.
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  #98  
Old 08-29-18, 11:02 AM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is online now
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Not sure what that number would be. Doubt it is a "tiny minority." In fact, Joe Scalzo said "Although the OHSAA schools voted against split tournaments in 1979 and 1993, there seems to be momentum toward a split."

Regardless, there is one number I am sure of - 56% - 44% - namely the percentage of schools that voted for the current competitive balance formula.
I'd be curious what those percentages are among public schools that have won state titles vs. the excuse crowd.
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  #99  
Old 08-29-18, 11:14 AM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
CB is a ham handed attempt to solve a problem peculiar to NEO by applying it state wide. In SWO the issue of Privates taking away talent is only at the D1 Level. CB has no affect on D1 Privates. The GCL Co-Eds are hardly super teams. In fact they aren't State Caliber Teams. CB will damage the ability of these schools to attract student/athletes. These schools are barely hanging on financially now. This could be a contributing factor to their death.
That's a ridiculous statement. Sure the numbers of kids moving in are larger at a D1, but if a D4 private picks up even 1 "stud" from a neighboring public it makes a much bigger difference than if Moeller or St Ed's picks up 1 kid.
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  #100  
Old 08-29-18, 11:16 AM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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My HS lost to Lebron twice in the Regional finals, then won the state title the following year. I guarantee you not one kid on those two teams that lost will tell you they'd have rather not played SVSM. Two great games between a small town public and a big city private that was one of the top teams in the country.
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  #101  
Old 08-29-18, 11:53 AM
invader03 invader03 is offline
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Getting crushed in Basketball is not same as football

If you lose by 50 in basketball because of superior talent, you just get your feelings hurt. When you are over-matched by a football team that has 5 or 6 d-1 kids in a d-4 or 5 game, kids get hurt. The whole issue is tough to deal with because not all privates recruit. However, some schools are football factories and they ruin it for the rest of the teams. For years, Ursuline was running through d-5 with elite talent where it was like men against boys. Mooney did the same in d-3 and 4. I think the real solution is to create a system where the top teams form each division both privates and publics move up and the bottom feeders move down. D1 and 2 should be for dominant football programs regardless of enrollment.
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  #102  
Old 08-29-18, 12:22 PM
Percidae Percidae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invader03 View Post
If you lose by 50 in basketball because of superior talent, you just get your feelings hurt. When you are over-matched by a football team that has 5 or 6 d-1 kids in a d-4 or 5 game, kids get hurt. The whole issue is tough to deal with because not all privates recruit. However, some schools are football factories and they ruin it for the rest of the teams. For years, Ursuline was running through d-5 with elite talent where it was like men against boys. Mooney did the same in d-3 and 4. I think the real solution is to create a system where the top teams form each division both privates and publics move up and the bottom feeders move down. D1 and 2 should be for dominant football programs regardless of enrollment.
This won't work. Cheater schools are going to cheat. How do you determine "top" schools? You will find programs that will do what they need to in order to "pick" their division until all the pieces are in place. Then they will make their run. If you are worried about safety, this system would be even worse since public schools could also play this game. There are some pretty awful city school teams that have some studs. Large schools yes but poor track records. Do you really want these teams going up against low enrollment D7 publics?
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  #103  
Old 08-29-18, 12:29 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
But that would only be IF CB was changed to allow high schools to select more than one feeder school system.
For the example given that I responded to, the high school had multiple feeder schools in the same system of education that would not have added to their CB number. Students entering into high school that were not coming from their listed feeder schools would be calculated into the CB number.
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  #104  
Old 08-29-18, 12:39 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Not sure what that number would be. Doubt it is a "tiny minority." In fact, Joe Scalzo said "Although the OHSAA schools voted against split tournaments in 1979 and 1993, there seems to be momentum toward a split."

Regardless, there is one number I am sure of - 56% - 44% - namely the percentage of schools that voted for the current competitive balance formula.
The 10% that did not vote could not have changed the outcome but may have made the differences even larger.
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  #105  
Old 08-29-18, 01:22 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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In a way, I was surprised the Ohio Supreme Court issued the ruling. Typically courts (especially the Supreme Court) don't like to make decisions until they have to. I thought they would say, "Wait until after the preliminary injunction hearing". Because if that hearing went in OHSAA's favor, then there would have been no need for the Court to get involved.
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  #106  
Old 08-29-18, 01:37 PM
king kong king kong is offline
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Some public schools and their supporters before Competitive Balance kicked in, "waaaaahhhhhhhh!". Some private schools and their supporters after Competitive Balance kicked in, "waaaaaaaahhhhhhh!"

Something must have worked! LOL Elections, ie. all ohio school voting on a referendum have consequences! LOL
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  #107  
Old 08-29-18, 06:39 PM
smurfyeah19 smurfyeah19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Yes, but large mismatches occur for public schools as well. What is being done to competitively balance them?

Furthermore, teams that aren't creating large mismatch problems (and may not even be competitive in the division they are already in) are getting moved up for no reason. How do you solve that?

By the way - these two questions literally are the only questions that are important/need to be discussed in any competitive balance conversation.


Mismatches can occur, itís the incredible amount some of these private schools have. You have top 8th grade players from all over Toledo going to Central for a shot at one day playing college football and getting the education needed to prep them for it. You donít need even programs like a Coldwater going against essentially a junior college football team
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  #108  
Old 08-29-18, 09:54 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyeah19 View Post
You have top 8th grade players from all over Toledo going to Central
It's not Central's fault that Toledo public failed these kids. They're taking a ~$3500 hit per kid between voucher value and TCOA and if Gallagher, Mercy, and all the rich white people hogging up all the parking spots on the property are footing that bill, I say good for them. Beats treating the kids like garbage. Dempsey and the coaches and everyone else in that system are giving these kids a fighting chance to escape a system that has sentenced them to perpetual, generational poverty and doesn't care. There's a lot of uplifting going on at Cherry St and it's real. Sure not every individual story ends with sunshine and unicorns, but they're trying. Only a cruel cynical person would complain that they win games in the process. If the other teams aren't taking these kids in, then the good frer Ockham's razor can cut right through to the reason.
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  #109  
Old 08-29-18, 10:08 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
It's not Central's fault that Toledo public failed these kids. They're taking a ~$3500 hit per kid between voucher value and TCOA and if Gallagher, Mercy, and all the rich white people hogging up all the parking spots on the property are footing that bill, I say good for them. Beats treating the kids like garbage. Dempsey and the coaches and everyone else in that system are giving these kids a fighting chance to escape a system that has sentenced them to perpetual, generational poverty and doesn't care. There's a lot of uplifting going on at Cherry St and it's real. Sure not every individual story ends with sunshine and unicorns, but they're trying. Only a cruel cynical person would complain that they win games in the process. If the other teams aren't taking these kids in, then the good frer Ockham's razor can cut right through to the reason.
The implication that if a kid does not attend Central they will be sentenced to perpetual, generational poverty is ridiculous.
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  #110  
Old 08-29-18, 11:52 PM
shoprat2 shoprat2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Percidae View Post
I propose two simple rules for private school divisional assignment:

1. Division assignment should be no less than the highest division public school within a 30 mile radius of the location of the private school.
2. The ratio of marching band members to football roster members should be no less than 1:1.
Even better idea instead of band make it 1:1 with the soccer team and apply it to all schools.
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  #111  
Old 08-30-18, 06:25 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by DB 04 View Post
What about the non-athletes?
Are you so cynical that you don't believe that they're taking them also? I know that the rich are supposed to be hated universally, but, generally speaking, the ones funding the uplifting don't believe that they're merely buying athletes.
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  #112  
Old 08-30-18, 06:29 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
The implication that if a kid does not attend Central they will be sentenced to perpetual, generational poverty is ridiculous.
As a product of public schools who escaped generational poverty, I know that firsthand. No such implication was made. Attending Central increases the probability and the opportunities.
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  #113  
Old 08-30-18, 08:07 AM
CARDINAL CARDINAL is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
In some ways this is an ignorant statement. They do not have a monopoly on tournaments in the state. They do organize and control their own tournaments. A high school team can play in any sports event they want to, but as a voluntary member of the OHSAA you accept their rules. Don't volunteer and win all the tournaments you want to.
They are the absolute definition of a monopoly
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  #114  
Old 08-30-18, 09:09 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
Could it have anything to do with the OHSAA having a monopoly? Can't win a state title without joining the OHSAA?
Oh but you can just start your own association get people to join, raise money and have you own state championship, See easy peasy
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  #115  
Old 08-30-18, 09:29 AM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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Originally Posted by CARDINAL View Post
They are the absolute definition of a monopoly
There are hundreds of organizations in Ohio that run tournaments. That is what the OHSAA does- they run tournaments. High schools could join those other tournaments; they choose not to and join the OHSAA instead. Not a monopoly.
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  #116  
Old 08-30-18, 09:39 AM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDINAL View Post
They are the absolute definition of a monopoly
Monopolies are characterized with having some advantage that makes entry of competitors difficult or impossible. I can start a completing organization this afternoon. That no one would join it is of no significance.
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  #117  
Old 08-30-18, 10:24 AM
CARDINAL CARDINAL is offline
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I don't agree.

You want to win an Ohio Sate Championship, you must be in the OHSAA.

They have, by far (I'm sure well over 95% of the schools that participate in Football)

That's a monopoly
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  #118  
Old 08-30-18, 10:57 AM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by smurfyeah19 View Post
itís the incredible amount some of these private schools have.
The most important part of the statement - some.
Same can be said for publics -some.
I will even agree that there is a much larger percentage of mismatches for privates placed in divisions solely based upon enrollment than there are for publics.

I don't even know if what you say about Toledo is true or not. And assuming it is, I totally agree with competitively balancing Toledo Central Catholic.

The problem with the current formula is that it essentially treats all private schools the same regardless and doesn't do anything to publics that enjoy competitive mismatches over their division.
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  #119  
Old 08-30-18, 12:13 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by CARDINAL View Post
They are the absolute definition of a monopoly
There are tournament all year round for sports and in many different areas of the state. If you have access to the internet you can find many forms of tournaments.
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  #120  
Old 08-30-18, 12:40 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Those schools you mentioned would not be increased by the CB. IF a student attends a a catholic school their entire life and the schools below the high school level are listed as a feeder school then they will be listed as a Tier 0 and no additional calculation is added.
You seem to think that a Catholic school can have more than one designated feeder school. That is not correct. In fact, probably 75% of the Catholic elementary schools in Ohio are excluded by CBP from being designated as feeder schools to Catholic high schools. That is because there are at least four times as many Catholic elementary schools as high schools in the state, and each Catholic high school is limited to one feeder school.

That is what the argument about Tier 1 is about. Over half of the kids who attend Catholic grade schools are automatically multiplied if they attend Catholic high schools, but not multiplied if they attend public high schools.

Tell me - what does that have to do with recruiting? How is that anywhere close to fair?
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