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  #61  
Old 08-28-18, 11:11 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I do not have any issue with a catholic middle school student attending a catholic high school. I do scratch my head a little when a none catholic middle schooler decides to attend a catholic school in high school, who happens to be a standout athlete. Just like a scratch my head when a standout high school athlete open enrolls to a different high school. I feel the movement has become ridiculous and has very little if anything to do with education. I like the attempt to try and discourage the movement after JH and specifically HS. As for a catholic feeder school, is it not understandable to require that school to be in a reasonable location to the high school? OR do you feel a catholic middle school in Youngstown is okay to be considered a feeder school for a high school in Dayton?
I agree there should be a rational relationship between the Catholic grade school and the high school. Limit it to a county, or a school system, or a mileage limitation, or historical data; whichever makes most sense. But, for instance, I know STVM (and I presume Hoban and Walsh) get a number of students from Sacred Heart in Wadsworth (Medina County). To me, that would still be a "feeder" to the Summit County high schools since I don't believe there is a Catholic high school in Medina County.
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  #62  
Old 08-28-18, 12:03 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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I think we are all too caught up on "feeder" schools. The reason for the change was to move some schools up who aren't in what appears to be the proper division for their ability to field a football team. The competitive balance calculation for the most part does a good job of it.

If they change the feeder school rule, they are just going to have to change something else. If you take a step back and look at the divisions as they stand now, they are better now than they were 3 years ago.

The OHSAA rules have never been "fair" to everyone because that is an impossible standard. The best they can do is to try and be as fair to everyone as they can without creating too large of a disadvantage to anyone else. The rules today are better than they were 3 years ago.
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  #63  
Old 08-28-18, 12:14 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I think we are all too caught up on "feeder" schools. The reason for the change was to move some schools up who aren't in what appears to be the proper division for their ability to field a football team. The competitive balance calculation for the most part does a good job of it.

If they change the feeder school rule, they are just going to have to change something else. If you take a step back and look at the divisions as they stand now, they are better now than they were 3 years ago.

The OHSAA rules have never been "fair" to everyone because that is an impossible standard. The best they can do is to try and be as fair to everyone as they can without creating too large of a disadvantage to anyone else. The rules today are better than they were 3 years ago.
As you know from all of my other posts in this thread, I agree with you. The only question/problem I have is with teams/schools that are "competitively balanced" that weren't a problem to begin with.

The question then becomes, should the entire formula be reworked such that on a sport-by-sport, gender-by-gender basis (not school by school), schools are balanced every year by how they did previously (either last year, last 2 years, last 4-8 years).

Why was this concept abandoned? Why do we care WHY certain teams dominate certain divisions. Does it even matter? Why don't we just say that if you dominate (or do really well) in a certain division you get moved up until you don't?

Yes - it makes for a roller coaster of teams in the lower divisions.

I am just not sure why we are "protecting" public dominant schools (like Marion Local, Steubenville, Coldwater, Trotwood Madison, etc.) while punishing the private ones.
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  #64  
Old 08-28-18, 12:23 PM
Interloper Interloper is offline
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My beef with it is that they didn't build in any discretionary tools for the OHSAA.

For example, you have teams with 20-something players (including Freshmen) and 100 boys competing up a division. Teams like this are trying to field a team - at all.

there should be a waiver process in place, etc to hear challenges.
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  #65  
Old 08-28-18, 12:44 PM
BIG ED BIG ED is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I think we are all too caught up on "feeder" schools. The reason for the change was to move some schools up who aren't in what appears to be the proper division for their ability to field a football team. The competitive balance calculation for the most part does a good job of it.

If they change the feeder school rule, they are just going to have to change something else. If you take a step back and look at the divisions as they stand now, they are better now than they were 3 years ago.

The OHSAA rules have never been "fair" to everyone because that is an impossible standard. The best they can do is to try and be as fair to everyone as they can without creating too large of a disadvantage to anyone else. The rules today are better than they were 3 years ago.
Agree!
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  #66  
Old 08-28-18, 12:51 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Why don't we just say that if you dominate (or do really well) in a certain division you get moved up until you don't?
Perhaps because teams change so much from year to year due to graduation?
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  #67  
Old 08-28-18, 12:55 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
As you know from all of my other posts in this thread, I agree with you. The only question/problem I have is with teams/schools that are "competitively balanced" that weren't a problem to begin with.

The question then becomes, should the entire formula be reworked such that on a sport-by-sport, gender-by-gender basis (not school by school), schools are balanced every year by how they did previously (either last year, last 2 years, last 4-8 years).

Why was this concept abandoned? Why do we care WHY certain teams dominate certain divisions. Does it even matter? Why don't we just say that if you dominate (or do really well) in a certain division you get moved up until you don't?

Yes - it makes for a roller coaster of teams in the lower divisions.

I am just not sure why we are "protecting" public dominant schools (like Marion Local, Steubenville, Coldwater, Trotwood Madison, etc.) while punishing the private ones.
Why should we punish the successful? The whys DO matter.
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  #68  
Old 08-28-18, 01:04 PM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Why should we punish the successful? The whys DO matter.
You are 100% correct ... the whys DO matter .... Why do you say it is punishing them ... if you are good why don't you want to be more challenged? Why are you afraid of a challenged? Why would teams want to continue beating up teams that they are better than???????????
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  #69  
Old 08-28-18, 01:07 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
You are 100% correct ... the whys DO matter .... Why do you say it is punishing them ... if you are good why don't you want to be more challenged? Why are you afraid of a challenged? Why would teams want to continue beating up teams that they are better than???????????
If we are the best in the division in which we belong, WHY is it my problem that you can't get better and challenge us? The crap teams are the problem, not the good ones.
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  #70  
Old 08-28-18, 01:13 PM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
If we are the best in the division in which we belong, WHY is it my problem that you can't get better and challenge us? The crap teams are the problem, not the good ones.
Still sounds like you are afraid of a challenge to me ... question, WHY was Wayne County considered crybabies when they complained about the old system ... so wouldn't that make the schools complaining about the new system crybabies also?
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  #71  
Old 08-28-18, 01:17 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
I agree there should be a rational relationship between the Catholic grade school and the high school. Limit it to a county, or a school system, or a mileage limitation, or historical data; whichever makes most sense. But, for instance, I know STVM (and I presume Hoban and Walsh) get a number of students from Sacred Heart in Wadsworth (Medina County). To me, that would still be a "feeder" to the Summit County high schools since I don't believe there is a Catholic high school in Medina County.
From the information you provided, that would make sense.
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  #72  
Old 08-28-18, 01:24 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
Still sounds like you are afraid of a challenge to me ... question, WHY was Wayne County considered crybabies when they complained about the old system ... so wouldn't that make the schools complaining about the new system crybabies also?
Since I have no dog in the fight, I'm not afraid of the discussion. I'm simply wondering why the complaints about domination are aimed at the winners instead of the others? Shouldn't we focus on what the unsuccessful are doing wrong instead of what the winners are doing right?
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  #73  
Old 08-28-18, 01:26 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
I am just not sure why we are "protecting" public dominant schools (like Marion Local, Steubenville, Coldwater, Trotwood Madison, etc.) while punishing the private ones.
I do not see this at all. Calculating an athlete that open enrolled or transferred into a district after he has already played at another school is not punishment or protection in any way. At least not to me. I see this as a way to discourage the players/parents from jumping teams to create success which we have seen in recent years.
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  #74  
Old 08-28-18, 03:01 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Why should we punish the successful? The whys DO matter.
Wait - what?

Isn't the ENTIRE REASON behind the current competitive balance system to do EXACTLY that - punish the successful?

In fact, isn't the entire problem with the current system (to the extent there is one), that it only punishes SOME of the successful while, in some instances, it punishes the mediocre and unsuccessful.
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  #75  
Old 08-28-18, 03:03 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I do not see this at all. Calculating an athlete that open enrolled or transferred into a district after he has already played at another school is not punishment or protection in any way. At least not to me. I see this as a way to discourage the players/parents from jumping teams to create success which we have seen in recent years.
Uhh, I don't think you understand how the current competitive balance system works.
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  #76  
Old 08-28-18, 03:04 PM
L Hand L Hand is offline
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Originally Posted by queencitybuckeye View Post
Since I have no dog in the fight, I'm not afraid of the discussion. I'm simply wondering why the complaints about domination are aimed at the winners instead of the others? Shouldn't we focus on what the unsuccessful are doing wrong instead of what the winners are doing right?
You realize that no matter what you do, someone has to win and someone has to lose, right?
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  #77  
Old 08-28-18, 03:10 PM
queencitybuckeye queencitybuckeye is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
You realize that no matter what you do, someone has to win and someone has to lose, right?
I do. Why does a small number of teams winning a lot signify that there's a problem? Why do we need to do anything?
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  #78  
Old 08-28-18, 03:26 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I do not have any issue with a catholic middle school student attending a catholic high school. I do scratch my head a little when a none catholic middle schooler decides to attend a catholic school in high school, who happens to be a standout athlete.
Bishop Hartley is close to Berwick Alternative K-8 which is a not horrible public school because it is selective. Admission is by lottery. It's a natural feeder school to Eastmoor Academy which is also a not horrible selective public school whose enrollment is done by lottery. They only give admission preference to existing Berwick Alternative kids for 20% of the incoming kids. And that set-aside is done by lottery. So if your kid went to Berwick but didn't win the lottery for Eastmoor, Bishop Hartley may be the next best choice. Or else a bunch of potentially sketchy charter or online schools. Since your home district is Columbus East which is on the failed schools list, you get a $6K voucher. As long as you can come up with the other $3K-ish for tuition, it looks attractive. Since the kid went to Berwick, they may have a decent shot at an Academic scholarship or, if you're low income, need based aid. Those are involved families with legitimate academic concerns. It's not just that. It's also safety. A family not particulary shook by their failure to win the Berwick lottery from that same neighborhood could have been OK with their child getting by at Johnson Park Middle School, a failed public, which is even closer to Hartley. Maybe they were saving up their nickels by not paying the tuition difference at All Saints for nine years to avoid the palpable fear of East High School. Sounds reasonable to me. East vs Hartley doesn't invoke any head scratching. I have friends who fully bought into the Pickerington Schools / PSR model for their family, but after a series of violent cafeteria fights and a couple lockdowns decided that their kids would finish at Hartley. Same story. Junior High - perfectly safe. High School - perceived as sufficiently less safe. Their son plays JV football at Hartley. Would not have been a standout at North. Will likely get to play at Hartley eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Just like a scratch my head when a standout high school athlete open enrolls to a different high school.
In Pickerington, we had a kid who really loved his dad when he was slotted as a 2 who suddenly missed his mom and his friends now that he's slotted as a 1 back home. No open enrollment involved at all. Didn't scratch my head at all. Perfect career move both times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I feel the movement has become ridiculous and has very little if anything to do with education. I like the attempt to try and discourage the movement after JH and specifically HS. As for a catholic feeder school, is it not understandable to require that school to be in a reasonable location to the high school?
Yeah, mostly. In Columbus, that's how it works. Other than St Charles who has no competitive advantages in football, all the parish schools feed into the high school in their quadrant of town. Mostly. Gets a little fuzzy at the edges and far out of the county. Sometimes the wrong high school is closer to the parents' work though. Should be some geographical correlation at least. I am confused about X and Ig taking kids from all over creation, but then I remember than they're both run by Jesuits. And I've heard that they do their own thing, but that could just be heresay.

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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
OR do you feel a catholic middle school in Youngstown is okay to be considered a feeder school for a high school in Dayton?
I did until the coach in Akron brought me a nice bagged lunch and a team shirt. The guy from Dayton was only offering old Thanksgiving wishbones and a yuge tuition bill.

Your usage of "middle school" makes me think that you don't know much about the Catholic schools though. Grade schools are parish schools and some parishes straddle natural high school territories.
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  #79  
Old 08-28-18, 03:46 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by L Hand View Post
Uhh, I don't think you understand how the current competitive balance system works.
Not only do I know how it works, I understand what it was intended to do.
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  #80  
Old 08-28-18, 03:53 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post

Your usage of "middle school" makes me think that you don't know much about the Catholic schools though. Grade schools are parish schools and some parishes straddle natural high school territories.
I admit I do not know everything about catholic schools but using the term middle school to describe a junior high age student making a transition to high school is much easier than all the other detailed titles. I just selected a generic term.
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  #81  
Old 08-28-18, 03:54 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by Interloper View Post
For example, you have teams with 20-something players (including Freshmen) and 100 boys competing up a division. Teams like this are trying to field a team - at all.

there should be a waiver process in place, etc to hear challenges.
Correct. I've got no problem with Hartley playing in D-III, even though the physical enrollment count of 207 puts us in D-IV or maybe D-V. It fits the regular season schedule and the team's desire to challenge itself to improve to the next level.

Watterson is in the same D-III region. They've got 31 kids total in their program, and they lost as bad to Wheelersburg as any other D-V school. That's where they belong. With CBP, they are 16 imaginary kids away from D-II. It's crazy.

St Charles was beat bad by Watterson but they're only a couple dozen invisible players away from D-I. They belong in D-IV or D-V also.
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  #82  
Old 08-28-18, 04:27 PM
Interloper Interloper is offline
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People have this generalization that catholic schools are all chocked full of ringers from all around. Some may be, but the ones away from the large urban areas have about 1 or maybe 2 catholic schools to choose from for many, many miles and they aren't attending for football.

Now, with soccer on the rise, many "private schools" are struggling to field a team at all. the whole CB thing is like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly.
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  #83  
Old 08-28-18, 04:36 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Interloper View Post
People have this generalization that catholic schools are all chocked full of ringers from all around. Some may be, but the ones away from the large urban areas have about 1 or maybe 2 catholic schools to choose from for many, many miles and they aren't attending for football.

Now, with soccer on the rise, many "private schools" are struggling to field a team at all. the whole CB thing is like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly.
Those schools you mentioned would not be increased by the CB. IF a student attends a a catholic school their entire life and the schools below the high school level are listed as a feeder school then they will be listed as a Tier 0 and no additional calculation is added.
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  #84  
Old 08-28-18, 05:20 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
You are 100% correct ... the whys DO matter .... Why do you say it is punishing them ... if you are good why don't you want to be more challenged? Why are you afraid of a challenged? Why would teams want to continue beating up teams that they are better than???????????
Badin will not be competitive in D1 baseball. They just won't
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  #85  
Old 08-28-18, 06:58 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Badin will not be competitive in D1 baseball. They just won't
I'm sure there are plenty of schools we can name that are not competitive. BUt as it has been said before.... Do we have a goal for everyone to win a state title?
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  #86  
Old 08-28-18, 11:07 PM
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I had a very successful, current high school basketball coach who will be a future hall of famer told me this summer that he talked to the old and new commissioner. " Let them all transfer ". The kids and parents have 4 years to do what they want. The cheaters will find a way around the transfer rules and the innocence will get punished. He didn't completely agree with all of that but that's just the way it is at most places. OHSAA doesn't have the man power to stop cheating, so let the kids go where they want to. Sounds out of the box but probably very true. Good luck all ��
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  #87  
Old 08-29-18, 12:33 AM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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Badin will not be competitive in D1 baseball. They just won't
Last season Badin had 11 college commits. Seems like they can handle D1 baseball just fine.
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  #88  
Old 08-29-18, 08:32 AM
longtime1sttime longtime1sttime is offline
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  #89  
Old 08-29-18, 08:56 AM
invader03 invader03 is offline
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Radio example of LaSalle said it all

LaSalle having players from 4 states is why competitive balance makes sense and they should be moved up a division.
It gets even worse in the lower divisions like d-4 and below where catholic teams have the same populations but all the boys are athletes who were recruited to go there and lots of them happen to be d-1 prospects playing little towns with a normal student population. I would have had separate divisions for privates and public schools years ago.
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  #90  
Old 08-29-18, 09:00 AM
smurfyeah19 smurfyeah19 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I'm sure there are plenty of schools we can name that are not competitive. BUt as it has been said before.... Do we have a goal for everyone to win a state title?


I think what is forgotten is that it is called balance. A perfect example is Toledo Central Catholic who is arguably the best team in NW Ohio period. Throw them in D4 and the playoffs in their region could probably be used in court for attempted manslaughter thatís how bad it would be. This system isnít perfect but itís needed to balance out some of these large mismatches
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