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  #31  
Old 08-24-18, 01:52 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoachmoore View Post
You realize that the few schools that whined and complained about how unfair life was had that same volunteer membership status and had that same opportunity to leave. Where were you and the “don’t like it then leave” group then?


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They requested a vote and won
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  #32  
Old 08-24-18, 01:54 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
Like many things that are voted on by majority rule most accept the outcome and others decide to whine and complain. Looks like a select few indeed are whining.

Roger Bacon didn't get this upset when they went to the OHSSA over Moeller a few years back.
Will Roger Bacon attempt to impeach the new OHSAA president?
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  #33  
Old 08-24-18, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
Oh for the 1970's when you had 3 divisions with 4 regions each and the top 4 teams in each region went to the playoffs. Nice and simple.
anyone want to tell him?
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  #34  
Old 08-24-18, 02:41 PM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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Originally Posted by TheDude89 View Post
Agreed. If the net result from all of this is changing that tier 1 issue I'm all for it.
Competitive balance is not static. If they wanted to change it, they could've submitted a proposal for change to the Competitive Balance committee that still meets annually, gone to the board of directors, or just bypassed both and asked to put it on the ballot for a membership vote.

They did none of these things and choice to sue instead. That seems silly to me.
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  #35  
Old 08-24-18, 02:46 PM
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The Butler The Butler is offline
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Originally Posted by EagleFan View Post
anyone want to tell him?
Only 1 per region qualified.
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  #36  
Old 08-24-18, 02:50 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Judge Ruehlman is not shy when it comes to taking a controversial stand. He's a good judge. I still can't find where he went to high school. The ties that bind can be very strong in any profession.
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  #37  
Old 08-24-18, 03:08 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
The OHSAA is supposed to be a collection of schools that choose to compete for the betterment of their student body. It could be football, cornhole, or academic challenge. It's a fun way to have the schools compete.

The problem begins when kids/parents are choosing high schools because of sports. They load one team up at the expense of others. It goes against what the ideal of the OHSAA is supposed to be. To counteract this, the OHSAA wants to move the "receiving" schools up a division. It's not a perfect system but when you look at the results, it's not too bad. It may not be fair to everyone that gets moved up but the old system had more schools that were disadvantaged.
Most private schools are small enough that you don't have 100 parents choosing the schools because of sports. Many private schools do very well at multiple sports. Do people really believe that parents of multiple sports, such as football and soccer, choose the school because of sports? With football at around 100 players in grades 9-12, boys' soccer with maybe 60, and girls' soccer at around 60, that's 220 kids of 580, choosing the school primarily because of sports? Do people seriously believe that?

Choosing a school because of sports may happen more at a larger school, such as the big 6 private D1 schools. But CBP, and of course, Tier 1, don't affect those schools. So we're solving the wrong problem.

If public schools should be moved down, fine. If recruiting rules need to be tightened, fine. But Tier 1 is not solving any problem. It's simply moving small private schools up, leaving the lower 3 or 4 divisions in football, and smaller divisions in some other sports, alone for noncompetitive private schools and public schools. It would be more honest to just move privates up a level, and admitting that's what you're doing.

That's not what Tier 1 does. It truly is arbitrary and capricious. It has no connection to "loading up one team at the expense of others." It simply punishes all non-public schools, without regard to loading or expense of others. A couple of OE schools can get caught up in it, too, and many don't "load up." But a few OE schools, along with a very few private schools, are better examples of loading up at the expense of others than the typical private school.

What Tier 1 does is take a private school's natural, "home-grown" population, multiply it way out of proportion to its real size, and require it to try to compete with larger schools that can have significant larger player depth.

The differences in transfer rules, home-schooled kids, and virtually everything else in the eligibility rules favors public schools.

And the private schools have no chance at influencing the vote. To say, "the majority wants it, so suck it up," when the rules don't cut both ways, is itself revealing.

And the ones who are "crying" are not the private schools, but the public schools who couldn't compete for state championships.
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  #38  
Old 08-24-18, 03:28 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Agree with a lot of the above. There is as much of a problem with players getting cherry picked by a D1 school from the small GCL schools.
On the other hand are they worried about the elephant in the room when it comes to club coaches hand picking and steering girls volleyball and basketball players to specific schools. The AAU and Club networks may driving a lot of this. Boys basketball is getting there.
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  #39  
Old 08-25-18, 06:14 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
Judge Ruehlman is not shy when it comes to taking a controversial stand. He's a good judge. I still can't find where he went to high school. The ties that bind can be very strong in any profession.
Ruehlman went to Western Hills High School. (1970)

He's also no stranger to getting smacked down by the Ohio Supreme Court. (see Stan Chesley for one example)
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  #40  
Old 08-25-18, 08:37 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Would or could the Hamilton County Courts rule that thet Elks club has to charge the same for whiskey as they do for a brew?
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  #41  
Old 08-25-18, 11:06 AM
Vincent and Regina Vincent and Regina is offline
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I think OHSAA will lose. The reason they lose is because they are not enforcing it evenly. Everyone is correct the GCL-Coed is a volunteer member and they must agree to rules they don't favor.

The problem OHSAA has is they do not enforce the competitive across all sports. This year Ed, X, and Elder all play Indianapolis Cathedral. If you look at Cathedreal's numbers they are D2. Now if you add in all of the factors of other competitive balance teams, they are D1. The three Ohio schools should be getting D1 points for a win vs Cathedral. Since they won't OHSAA is showing bias against the lower level teams. Since Bias is shown they are at fault.
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  #42  
Old 08-25-18, 12:10 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Ruehlman went to Western Hills High School. (1970)

He's also no stranger to getting smacked down by the Ohio Supreme Court. (see Stan Chesley for one example)
Thanks.
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  #43  
Old 08-25-18, 12:17 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Vincent and Regina View Post
I think OHSAA will lose. The reason they lose is because they are not enforcing it evenly. Everyone is correct the GCL-Coed is a volunteer member and they must agree to rules they don't favor.

The problem OHSAA has is they do not enforce the competitive across all sports. This year Ed, X, and Elder all play Indianapolis Cathedral. If you look at Cathedreal's numbers they are D2. Now if you add in all of the factors of other competitive balance teams, they are D1. The three Ohio schools should be getting D1 points for a win vs Cathedral. Since they won't OHSAA is showing bias against the lower level teams. Since Bias is shown they are at fault.
Plenty of Indiana schools play up and down in the same year to fill schedules. Are Ohio schools punished with lower 2nd level harbins if a D2 Indiana school has wins over lower division programs ?
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  #44  
Old 08-25-18, 12:24 PM
the_big_toe the_big_toe is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
They requested a vote and won
Actually, they requested a vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and lost.

Then requested another vote ... and schools got tired of voting on it, so they finally acquiesced and it still barely passed.
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  #45  
Old 08-25-18, 12:53 PM
hammer89 hammer89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent and Regina View Post
I think OHSAA will lose. The reason they lose is because they are not enforcing it evenly. Everyone is correct the GCL-Coed is a volunteer member and they must agree to rules they don't favor.

The problem OHSAA has is they do not enforce the competitive across all sports. This year Ed, X, and Elder all play Indianapolis Cathedral. If you look at Cathedreal's numbers they are D2. Now if you add in all of the factors of other competitive balance teams, they are D1. The three Ohio schools should be getting D1 points for a win vs Cathedral. Since they won't OHSAA is showing bias against the lower level teams. Since Bias is shown they are at fault.
That makes no sense. OHSAA can’t collect competitive balance data on a non-member out of state school. That has nothing to do with any of this.
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  #46  
Old 08-27-18, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
Motion granted.

http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/2018...e-balance-case
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  #47  
Old 08-27-18, 06:05 PM
Southwest Guy Southwest Guy is offline
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So who is paying the freight on all of this. Is the archdiocese helping out ?
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  #48  
Old 08-27-18, 08:57 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Again, lets take the privates to a separate tournament. We can have 2 or three divisions and be done with it. The OHSAA does not want private schools. The way the CB is crafted is proof. The privates can still play any of the publics without a problem but the tournament championships will be different. Quit wasting everybody's time and money in court.
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  #49  
Old 08-27-18, 10:05 PM
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To say the OHSAA does not want private schools is incorrect. It is more accurate to say that some of the OHSAA's public members do not feel the lack of district boundaries for the private schools is upsetting. I do not feel the CB is the best it could be but it was a step in the direction of making all schools factor in students who change rosters and cannot justify it without sports.
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  #50  
Old 08-28-18, 07:02 AM
Wahoo Sam Wahoo Sam is offline
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CB is a ham handed attempt to solve a problem peculiar to NEO by applying it state wide. In SWO the issue of Privates taking away talent is only at the D1 Level. CB has no affect on D1 Privates. The GCL Co-Eds are hardly super teams. In fact they aren't State Caliber Teams. CB will damage the ability of these schools to attract student/athletes. These schools are barely hanging on financially now. This could be a contributing factor to their death.
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  #51  
Old 08-28-18, 07:34 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
CB is a ham handed attempt to solve a problem peculiar to NEO by applying it state wide. In SWO the issue of Privates taking away talent is only at the D1 Level. CB has no affect on D1 Privates. The GCL Co-Eds are hardly super teams. In fact they aren't State Caliber Teams. CB will damage the ability of these schools to attract student/athletes. These schools are barely hanging on financially now. This could be a contributing factor to their death.
That's bull, in my opinion.
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  #52  
Old 08-28-18, 08:02 AM
Pope Francis 1 Pope Francis 1 is offline
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
Oh for the 1970's when you had 3 divisions with 4 regions each and the top 4 teams in each region went to the playoffs. Nice and simple.
Amen!
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  #53  
Old 08-28-18, 08:04 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
CB is a ham handed attempt to solve a problem peculiar to NEO by applying it state wide.
People who hate privates winning too many titles hate them in every division and every part of the state. To them, CBP is nothing but separation done gradually. Expel or make them quit. Either works.
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  #54  
Old 08-28-18, 08:27 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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People who I have talked to that are in favor of the CB do not have hate towards the wins or losses of private or open enrolled schools. It is the process in which they form their rosters that disturbs them.
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  #55  
Old 08-28-18, 08:30 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
People who I have talked to that are in favor of the CB do not have hate towards the wins or losses of private or open enrolled schools. It is the process in which they form their rosters that disturbs them.
They "form their rosters" the same way all schools do...by accepting players from the enrolled student population.
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  #56  
Old 08-28-18, 10:21 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
People who I have talked to that are in favor of the CB do not have hate towards the wins or losses of private or open enrolled schools. It is the process in which they form their rosters that disturbs them.
What specifically is your issue with how private schools make up their rosters? Do you really object to Catholic grade schoolers going to Catholic high schools of their choice? Is there a real difference between a public school that gets 80% of its students from one public feeder school and a private school that gets 80% of its students from 5 or 6 or 10 Catholic feeder schools? If that's the argument, then there really is no common ground to be found. However, if your argument about the process has to do with the number of public school students who go to private schools, then I think there is common ground that can be found. My main problem with this version of CB is that they came up with a solution without first sufficiently defining what the problem was.
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  #57  
Old 08-28-18, 10:33 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
What specifically is your issue with how private schools make up their rosters? Do you really object to Catholic grade schoolers going to Catholic high schools of their choice? Is there a real difference between a public school that gets 80% of its students from one public feeder school and a private school that gets 80% of its students from 5 or 6 or 10 Catholic feeder schools? If that's the argument, then there really is no common ground to be found. However, if your argument about the process has to do with the number of public school students who go to private schools, then I think there is common ground that can be found. My main problem with this version of CB is that they came up with a solution without first sufficiently defining what the problem was.
This.

Put whatever multiplier you want on kids who go to public schools through 8th grade, and then switch to a private HS. Putting multipliers of any kind on kids who have gone to Catholic school since kindergarten is punitive.
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  #58  
Old 08-28-18, 10:38 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
They "form their rosters" the same way all schools do...by accepting players from the enrolled student population.
Not all schools "enrolled student population" is formed the same way.
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  #59  
Old 08-28-18, 10:46 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
without first sufficiently defining what the problem was.
The problem was sufficiently defined. Privates were winning too many championships. The rules needed to be modified to ensure that they win less. Yes, it is punishing success, and that's exactly what the dissatisfied parties wanted. All denials of this fact are disingenuous. All corrections are directed at private schools and private schools alone. Those dissatisfied with repeated private success have no officially stated problem with MAC schools repeated success but only because those who do are either too ashamed to admit it or don't care about small schools. To whatever degree that schools like Trotwood-Madison and Pickerington do whatever they are doing that might result in repeated championships, private school opponents are willing to accommodate so long as it keeps the privates from winning. The main flaw of the CBP is that it is pretending to be something that it isn't.
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  #60  
Old 08-28-18, 10:50 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
What specifically is your issue with how private schools make up their rosters? Do you really object to Catholic grade schoolers going to Catholic high schools of their choice? Is there a real difference between a public school that gets 80% of its students from one public feeder school and a private school that gets 80% of its students from 5 or 6 or 10 Catholic feeder schools? If that's the argument, then there really is no common ground to be found. However, if your argument about the process has to do with the number of public school students who go to private schools, then I think there is common ground that can be found. My main problem with this version of CB is that they came up with a solution without first sufficiently defining what the problem was.
I do not have any issue with a catholic middle school student attending a catholic high school. I do scratch my head a little when a none catholic middle schooler decides to attend a catholic school in high school, who happens to be a standout athlete. Just like a scratch my head when a standout high school athlete open enrolls to a different high school. I feel the movement has become ridiculous and has very little if anything to do with education. I like the attempt to try and discourage the movement after JH and specifically HS. As for a catholic feeder school, is it not understandable to require that school to be in a reasonable location to the high school? OR do you feel a catholic middle school in Youngstown is okay to be considered a feeder school for a high school in Dayton?
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