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  #1  
Old 09-07-18, 07:23 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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NCAA Preseason Polls

WIN Magazine was the first out of the gate with their preseason polls. There's always some problems with preseason polls. They don't include true or RS freshmen, so no Daton Fix or Gabe Steveson. And they at times don't have people in the right weight. Micah Jordan is listed at 157 and Te'Shaun Campbell is listed at 165. Both are listed on tOSU site at different weights. And, last but not least, no one has wrestled a match. So things will bounce around quite a bit, but let's take a look anyway.

Not surprisingly, PSU is leading the way with 157 Nolf, 165 Joseph and 197 Nickal at #1, 174 Hall and 285 Nevills at #2, and 141 Lee and 184 Rasheed at #5 for a projected total of 112 points (w/o bonus).

tOSU is next in line with 184 MyMar at #1, 141 McKenna and 197 Moore at #2, 133 Pletcher, 149 Hayes and 157 Jordan at #5, and 165 Campbell at #13 for a projected total of 83.5 points.

OKST is slotted 3rd with 125 Piccinni at #3, 141 Brock, 149 Leewallen and 285 White at #4, 174 Jacobe Smith and 197 Weigal at #7, 165 Rodgers at #8, 184 Geer at #12 and 157 Shomers at #16 for a projected total of 73 points. Interstingly, they don't have former AA (and coach's son) Joe Smith anywhere. And RS freshman Daton Fix is not yet ranked, but will be soon into November.

Iowa follows OKST with 125 Lee and 285 Stoll at #1, 165 Marinelli at #5, 174 Kemmerer at #6, 149 Lugo at #8, 133 Desanto at #9, 141 Turk at #11, 184 Wilke at #13, and 157 Young At #15 for a projected total of 71.5 points.
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  #2  
Old 09-07-18, 07:35 AM
Tigers_Wrestling Tigers_Wrestling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
WIN Magazine was the first out of the gate with their preseason polls. There's always some problems with preseason polls. They don't include true or RS freshmen, so no Daton Fix or Gabe Steveson. And they at times don't have people in the right weight. Micah Jordan is listed at 157 and Te'Shaun Campbell is listed at 165. Both are listed on tOSU site at different weights. And, last but not least, no one has wrestled a match. So things will bounce around quite a bit, but let's take a look anyway.

Not surprisingly, PSU is leading the way with 157 Nolf, 165 Joseph and 197 Nickal at #1, 174 Hall and 285 Nevills at #2, and 141 Lee and 184 Rasheed at #5 for a projected total of 112 points (w/o bonus).

tOSU is next in line with 184 MyMar at #1, 141 McKenna and 197 Moore at #2, 133 Pletcher, 149 Hayes and 157 Jordan at #5, and 165 Campbell at #13 for a projected total of 83.5 points.

OKST is slotted 3rd with 125 Piccinni at #3, 141 Brock, 149 Leewallen and 285 White at #4, 174 Jacobe Smith and 197 Weigal at #7, 165 Rodgers at #8, 184 Geer at #12 and 157 Shomers at #16 for a projected total of 73 points. Interstingly, they don't have former AA (and coach's son) Joe Smith anywhere. And RS freshman Daton Fix is not yet ranked, but will be soon into November.

Iowa follows OKST with 125 Lee and 285 Stoll at #1, 165 Marinelli at #5, 174 Kemmerer at #6, 149 Lugo at #8, 133 Desanto at #9, 141 Turk at #11, 184 Wilke at #13, and 157 Young At #15 for a projected total of 71.5 points.
Any particular reason why? Other than it being an old practice from times when Freshmen couldn't wrestle at nationals, why would they not rank freshmen? Seems very odd, especially with how many are coming out of HS and AA'ing, or downright winning a NC.
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  #3  
Old 09-07-18, 07:49 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by Tigers_Wrestling View Post
Any particular reason why? Other than it being an old practice from times when Freshmen couldn't wrestle at nationals, why would they not rank freshmen? Seems very odd, especially with how many are coming out of HS and AA'ing, or downright winning a NC.
No idea why. I can kind of get on board with the true freshman because they've never wrestled a college match, and no one knows for sure if they'll RS or not. But RS freshmen do have college matches under their belt, and some may be pretty impressive. Fix, for example, beat AA 7th Bresser, Oregon ST, and Fausz, NCST (DNP but was a #5 seed at NCAA), last year. So he has a body of work at the NCAA level that should put him up there. Things always sort themselves out. If I was OKST I'd be thinking that I have 20 points in my back pocket.

Last edited by bdhof; 09-07-18 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 09-07-18, 07:57 AM
Tigers_Wrestling Tigers_Wrestling is offline
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Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
No idea why. I can kind of get on board with the true freshman because they've never wrestled a college match, and no one knows for sure if they'll RS or not. But RS freshmen do have college matches under their belt, and some may be pretty impressive. Fix, for example, beat AA 7th Bresser, Oregon ST, and Fausz, NCST (DNP but was a #5 seed at NCAA), last year. So he has a body of work at the NCAA level that should put him up there. Things always sort themselves out.
Not to mention the blue chips he beat in HS that later AA'd.

Quote:
If I was OKST I'd be thinking that I had 20 points in my back pocket.
Most definitely. Kid is a fire ball.
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  #5  
Old 09-07-18, 08:05 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by Tigers_Wrestling View Post
Not to mention the blue chips he beat in HS that later AA'd.

Most definitely. Kid is a fire ball.
And throw in a few guys like NaTo and Ramos whom he beat in FS.
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  #6  
Old 09-07-18, 10:19 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
No idea why. I can kind of get on board with the true freshman because they've never wrestled a college match, and no one knows for sure if they'll RS or not. But RS freshmen do have college matches under their belt, and some may be pretty impressive. Fix, for example, beat AA 7th Bresser, Oregon ST, and Fausz, NCST (DNP but was a #5 seed at NCAA), last year. So he has a body of work at the NCAA level that should put him up there. Things always sort themselves out. If I was OKST I'd be thinking that I have 20 points in my back pocket.
And with Joe Smith in the lineup I think you can pencil in a few more points for OKST. WIN has Rodgers at #8 and I think Smith should be around #4 or #5.
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  #7  
Old 09-08-18, 12:38 AM
Jason Bryant Jason Bryant is offline
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It's all up to the outlet. Redshirt freshmen absolutely have every right to be ranked in the pre-season and some are. WIN likes to get theirs out ahead of everyone else, and that can lead to some of the issues that have plagued their rankings over the years, some of which has been mentioned above.

In my ranking history (with both InterMat and AWN/TOM in the past 15 years), I never ranked true freshmen until they wrestled a varsity match. RS Freshmen would normally get ranked.

It's not a rule, it's just the arbitrary decision on who sets the "rules" for said rankings.
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  #8  
Old 09-08-18, 07:34 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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NCAA Preseason Polls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Bryant View Post
It's all up to the outlet. Redshirt freshmen absolutely have every right to be ranked in the pre-season and some are. WIN likes to get theirs out ahead of everyone else, and that can lead to some of the issues that have plagued their rankings over the years, some of which has been mentioned above.



In my ranking history (with both InterMat and AWN/TOM in the past 15 years), I never ranked true freshmen until they wrestled a varsity match. RS Freshmen would normally get ranked.



It's not a rule, it's just the arbitrary decision on who sets the "rules" for said rankings.


Thanks for the clarification Jason, and thanks for weighing in. It's nice to have a real live NCAA ranker on here. I do have a question for you. I believe you're doing IM rankings now. If so, how do they do the points in team rankings? I'm guessing that you have some sort of bonus calculation or "average points scored" metric in place. Would you care to share it or would you have to kill me if you told me? If the killing thing is in play, I'd just as soon not know.

The other ones I follow, TOM and WIN, just use the advancement and placement scoring to rank teams. Flo use to do that, but then they got frustrated b/c tOSU was ahead of PSU. For a month or so they kept writing a disclaimer saying that they didn't think tOSU was going to win (regrettably they were right) but this is how the numbers play out. Then towards the end of the season they just ignored the advancement/placement scoring and listed PSU ahead of tOSU w/o listing points even tho tOSU was ahead per their individual rankings.

Last edited by bdhof; 09-08-18 at 09:07 AM.
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  #9  
Old 09-15-18, 02:43 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Last year I did an occasional B10 ranking when Flo came out with theirs throughout the season. While I didn't post Flo's stuff, I usually referenced it (giving them credit) and highlighted tOSU, PSU and Iowa guys. And I calculated a team score using advancement and placement points. This year Flo has decided to put all their rankings behind a pay wall, so I won't be using Flo this year. They were my "go to" site last year. But I have five other sites that I will use for my NCAA rankings. No one else does conference rankings, but I'll use Intermat's (IM) NCAA rankings and filter out the B10 guys for a B10 ranking.

I had a love-hate relationship with Flo last year. They did a nice job giving some explanation as to guys moving up or down. And they did a few more updates than the others. I mentioned earlier why their team rankings irritated me. The other sites I use are IM which is my new "go to" site, Trackwrestling (TW), The Open Mat (TOM), Wrestling Insider News (WIN) and Amateur Wrestling News (AWN). IM was my standard "go to" site for years other than last year.
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  #10  
Old 09-18-18, 08:07 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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NCAA Preseason Polls

Much to my surprise, Flo did not put NCAA rankings behind a pay wall (as they did with conference rankings and international rankings). They are rolling them out one weight a day. I'll compile them in a post when they're all out. I'm pretty sure they read my post criticizing them and are trying to win back my designation as my "go to" site for rankings. I will note any "must read" rankings as Flo parades the weights out. BTW, Flo does include RS freshman but I don't believe they do true freshman in preseason rankings.

Last edited by bdhof; 09-18-18 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 09-18-18, 05:46 PM
Yankeefan33 Yankeefan33 is offline
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Originally Posted by bdhof View Post
Much to my surprise, Flo did not put NCAA rankings behind a pay wall (as they did with conference rankings and international rankings). They are rolling them out one weight a day. I'll compile them in a post when they're all out. I'm pretty sure they read my post criticizing them and are trying to win back my designation as my "go to" site for rankings. I will note any "must read" rankings as Flo parades the weights out. BTW, Flo does include RS freshman but I don't believe they do true freshman in preseason rankings.
Flo ranks college guys strictly off of college matches, so they don't rank true freshmen and only rank redshirt freshmen off of open results from last year. I will say, since HS wrestlers can compete in open tourneys, someone like Kerkvliet could theoretically go to Midlands this year, do well, and be ranked to start next year.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-18, 09:26 AM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by Yankeefan33 View Post
Flo ranks college guys strictly off of college matches, so they don't rank true freshmen and only rank redshirt freshmen off of open results from last year. I will say, since HS wrestlers can compete in open tourneys, someone like Kerkvliet could theoretically go to Midlands this year, do well, and be ranked to start next year.
It will be interesting to see what they do with Steveson. He has a handful of NCAA matches from some Open last year. He didn't have any significant wins (4-0, 2 falls, 1 TF and a 14-7 dec), but everyone seems to think (as I do) that he is the best at this weight. I wouldn't be surprised to see Flo say, "The heck with past practice. We're putting him #1."
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  #13  
Old 09-20-18, 12:01 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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This is a mini update from Flo's rankings. They've gone thru 149 as of today. I think they do 157 tomorrow and start up again with 165 on Monday. For the top four teams, the rankings look like this:

PSU - 125 NR, 133 NR, 141 #5, 149 NR
tOSU - 125 NR, 133 #4, 141 #2, 149 #2
OKST - 125 #5, 133 (Fix) #9, 141 #4, 149 #5
IOWA - 125 #1, 133 #8, 141 #18, 149 #6

I was a little surprised Fix was so low, but 133 is very loaded, and Fix is up a weight. And these are PS polls, and his NCAA body of work is very limited (5-0). He does have quality wins over Fausz, NCST (NCAA 5 seed DNP), and AA Bresser, ORG ST from last year. And I think Fix is better in FS than folkstyle. BTW, WIN doesn't rank RS or true freshmen in PS polls, so he wan't mentioned there.

They seemed to be torn between tOSU's Micah Jordan and Princeton's Kolodzik, another Ohio boy, for the top spot at 149, ultimately going with Kolodzik.

Last edited by bdhof; 09-20-18 at 12:25 PM.
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