Ask the Ref?

[oxat622]

Player with the ball in his hands has established his left foot as his pivot foot. If after he lifts it, he rests it on his right foot, so he's standing one foot on top of the other. He has not released the ball for a try for goal or pass. Traveling?

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by oxat622

Player with the ball in his hands has established his left foot as his pivot foot. If after he lifts it, he rests it on his right foot, so he's standing one foot on top of the other. He has not released the ball for a try for goal or pass. Traveling?

The violation occurs if he returns the pivot foot to the floor. The player did not do that here...

No violation

[oxat622]

What is your threshold for technical fouls when a players is blowing off steam, but doesn't direct it towards officials or other players? Why do we automatically call technical fouls if someone slams the ball on the floor? Would you call a tech if a player kicks his chair on his way to the bench? Yells a four letter word? Punches the basket support? What's your rule of thumb?

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by oxat622

What is your threshold for technical fouls when a players is blowing off steam, but doesn't direct it towards officials or other players? Why do we automatically call technical fouls if someone slams the ball on the floor? Would you call a tech if a player kicks his chair on his way to the bench? Yells a four letter word? Punches the basket support? What's your rule of thumb?

It's all about context, except if the profanity is audible for others to hear. (Whack!)

If any of the above actions are in relation (immediate or delayed) to an official's judgment or ruling, those actions are unsporting in nature and are to be penalized with a Technical Foul. No if's ,and's, or but's.

If the actions are related to the player or a teammate making a mistake, a Technical Foul may or may not be warranted. Sometimes the act is met with a quiet word for the player, the captain, and/or coach. Sometimes it's met with a stern word for said player.

For example, when upset with himself/herself, the instance of slamming the ball to the floor warrants a Technical Foul he/she fails to catch the ball and it goes airborne after being slammed to the floor. The reason..... the fans may think the player is upset with a call, when in fact he's/she's upset with themselves. We can't allow any player to incite a crowd whether it be intentional or not. In the end, it's incumbent on the participants to keep their actions under control.

Knowing when to penalize and when to counsel is an acquired skill that generally comes with experience.

[zebrastripes]

Originally Posted by oxat622

What is your threshold for technical fouls when a players is blowing off steam, but doesn't direct it towards officials or other players? Why do we automatically call technical fouls if someone slams the ball on the floor? Would you call a tech if a player kicks his chair on his way to the bench? Yells a four letter word? Punches the basket support? What's your rule of thumb?

What AllSports said.

Also, the rules don't require that poor behavior be directed at the officials for a technical foul to be issued. Profanity, for instance, is expressly prohibited and the rules don't say that it has to be directed at an official or opponent. Now, there is a common sense element as there is with most of the rules. If I'm the only one that can hear it, that's a situation where you can give a quiet scolding. But if a player curses loud enough to be heard in the stands, it has to be penalized even if he's blowing off steam.

[coltfan76]

Team A is shooting. In the rebounding action under the hoop, player A and player B end up shoving each other under the hoop. Referee steps between them as Player A is throwing a punch. Punch flies past referees head but doesn't make contact. Referee shoves player at least 4 times back toward his own bench. Player is ejected. Can referee be punished?

[Philly_Cat]

Originally Posted by coltfan76

Team A is shooting. In the rebounding action under the hoop, player A and player B end up shoving each other under the hoop. Referee steps between them as Player A is throwing a punch. Punch flies past referees head but doesn't make contact. Referee shoves player at least 4 times back toward his own bench. Player is ejected. Can referee be punished?

Good lord! That post didn't end like I thought it would lol

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[AllSports12]

This has nothing to do with rules.....

It will be up to the league or state association to deal with the actions of the official.

[coltfan76]

Originally Posted by AllSports12

This has nothing to do with rules.....

It will be up to the league or state association to deal with the actions of the official.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've just never seen anything like that in my 42 years of being around basketball and didn't know who to ask about it.

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by coltfan76

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I've just never seen anything like that in my 42 years of being around basketball and didn't know who to ask about it.

There's no way I could speculate what would happen without seeing a video.

Generally, we are discouraged from touching players. However, I have bear hugged one in the past, preventing him from delivering a retaliatory blow against a player who had nothing to do with an incident......

In other words, maybe a shove (or 4) was inappropriate and maybe it was.

[TriangleMan]

Originally Posted by AllSports12

As officials, we use "A" and "B" to differentiate Offense and Defense and "K" and "R" to differentiate the Kicking and Receiving teams.

This was taken from the Football forum.

What is the nomenclature for offense/defense in Basketball? Any others in addition to offense/defense?

[zebrastripes]

Originally Posted by TriangleMan

This was taken from the Football forum.

What is the nomenclature for offense/defense in Basketball? Any others in addition to offense/defense?

Teams A and B are what the Case Book uses just like for football.

[CedarBuck92]

How are officials asked to officiate blows to the head? Does intent make a difference?

Second questions: Is a punch an automatic ejection?

[Yappi]

Saw this in a game recently and had never seen it before. Seemed kind of weird just because it was during live action.

Offensive player is passed the ball. He tries to gather it and ball falls to the floor and bounces back up to him. Unsure if this was considered a dribble or not, he asks the ref if he can dribble. The ref nods his head yes.

Was this within the rules? It wasn't a big deal and no one complained. It's just something I've never seen before and was curious if it was handled normally.

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by CedarBuck92

How are officials asked to officiate blows to the head? Does intent make a difference?

In 2012 the NFHS came out with a Point of Emphasis with regards to contact at or above the shoulders. It said...

Clarifications offered by the NFHS:

Contact above the shoulders with a moving elbow

With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations, the committee reiterated its prior position:

Rule 9, Section 13:
ART. 1 A player shall not excessively swing his/her arms(s) or elbow(s), even without contacting an opponent. (Violation)
ART. 2 A player may extend arm(s) or elbow(s) to hold the ball under the chin or against the body. (No violation)
ART. 3 Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movements as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive. (No violation)

Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and associated penalties:

- Contact with a stationary elbow of an opponent may be incidental contact or a common foul.
- An elbow in movement but not excessive should be ruled an intentional foul if contact with an opponent occurs.
- A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul if contact with an opponent occurs.

While this leaves it to the official to judge the actions, the OHSAA Director of Basketball Officiating Development has stressed repeatedly (and for good reason)....

"A swinging elbow with contact in the head/neck area is ALWAYS an intentional foul, WITHOUT exception!!"

That swinging elbow if unintentional, is an Intentional Foul.
If that swinging elbow was judged to be intentional, then the act is flagrant is accompanied by an automatic disqualification of the offending player.

Originally Posted by CedarBuck92

Second questions: Is a punch an automatic ejection?

A punch meets the definition of fighting and always results in the disqualification of the offending party.

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by Yappi

Saw this in a game recently and had never seen it before. Seemed kind of weird just because it was during live action.

Offensive player is passed the ball. He tries to gather it and ball falls to the floor and bounces back up to him. Unsure if this was considered a dribble or not, he asks the ref if he can dribble. The ref nods his head yes.

Was this within the rules? It wasn't a big deal and no one complained. It's just something I've never seen before and was curious if it was handled normally.

Let's start with the definition of a dribble.....

"A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard".

"The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted."

It sounds as if nothing you describe occurred here. Therefore, that ball hitting the hands of Player A is not a part of a dribble. After he gathers the ball he can pass, shoot, request a time out, or legally start a dribble.

[thavoice]

What would you rule:

Start of OT the officials lined up the two for the tip facing the incorrect direction. Ball is tipped to team A who proceed to get an easy layup facing the correct direction that the tip was lined up at, but the incorrect way in terms of the rule that the OT direction continues from which way teams were going in the 4th qtr?

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by thavoice

What would you rule:

Start of OT the officials lined up the two for the tip facing the incorrect direction. Ball is tipped to team A who proceed to get an easy layup facing the correct direction that the tip was lined up at, but the incorrect way in terms of the rule that the OT direction continues from which way teams were going in the 4th qtr?

Score 2 for Team A and get ready for the barrage coming from the coach of Team B. (even though she/he missed the problem just as the officials and players did)


This situation is specifically addressed under Rule 4-5-4 ....

ART. 4

"If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location."

[thavoice]

Originally Posted by AllSports12

Score 2 for Team A and get ready for the barrage coming from the coach of Team B. (even though she/he missed the problem just as the officials and players did)


This situation is specifically addressed under Rule 4-5-4 ....

ART. 4

"If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location."

Fantastic.

Thanks.

This almost happened last week but the one official blew it dead before the player could make the layup so no points were scored. The basically did a do over with the full OT.

[yakyak]

Originally Posted by AllSports12

Let's start with the definition of a dribble.....

"A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player's own backboard".

"The dribble begins by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted."

It sounds as if nothing you describe occurred here. Therefore, that ball hitting the hands of Player A is not a part of a dribble. After he gathers the ball he can pass, shoot, request a time out, or legally start a dribble.

How/When is control establish during a catch? For example, a player is running and fumbling the initial catch attempt. When does that attempt stop and a voliation occur?

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by yakyak

How/When is control establish during a catch? For example, a player is running and fumbling the initial catch attempt. When does that attempt stop and a voliation occur?

A player is in control when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

[madworld]

Originally Posted by AllSports12

Score 2 for Team A and get ready for the barrage coming from the coach of Team B. (even though she/he missed the problem just as the officials and players did)


This situation is specifically addressed under Rule 4-5-4 ....

ART. 4

"If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction, when discovered all points scored, fouls committed, and time consumed shall count as if each team had gone the proper direction. Play shall resume with each team going the proper direction based on bench location."

This can’t be the coaches or players fault. They are playing and coaching. Both are asked to do just that and let officials officiate. To insinuate they have a fault in this is wrong, but also just my humble opinion.

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by madworld

This can’t be the coaches or players fault. They are playing and coaching. Both are asked to do just that and let officials officiate. To insinuate they have a fault in this is wrong, but also just my humble opinion.

While the officials have a greater responsibility in this situation, (they are the ones that get the grief, not the coaches or players) all parties have a handin this mistake.

The only way the coaches or players have no responsibility is if they questioned the officials on how they were lined up or the officials directed them to to line up incorrectly..... and the officials still lined them up wrong.

Again, the greater responsibility falls on the crew..... but mistakes happen.

[Philly_Cat]

Originally Posted by madworld

This can’t be the coaches or players fault. They are playing and coaching. Both are asked to do just that and let officials officiate. To insinuate they have a fault in this is wrong, but also just my humble opinion.

"If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction..."

Nowhere in that definition was it stated it was a coach's or player's fault. It was actually said that the refs made the mistake. The thing is that they shouldn't, and by rules, can't rewind a game. Thus, a mistake is made, but you must move forward after it. If you start rewinding the game for every mistake made by a ref, coach or player, perceived or otherwise, you open a huge can of worms for everyone wanting everything rewound. Think about just how ugly that could get, how long games would become.

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[Zunardo]

Originally Posted by thavoice

Start of OT the officials lined up the two for the tip facing the incorrect direction. Ball is tipped to team A who proceed to get an easy layup facing the correct direction that the tip was lined up at, but the incorrect way in terms of the rule that the OT direction continues from which way teams were going in the 4th qtr?

We had this happen 20 years ago at our high school, start of an OT period- except the Team A player (home team) went for an easy layup at the "wrong basket" as the refs had lined them up (would have been the "correct basket", if they had been lined up correctly).

The nearest official ruled "basket for Team B", then they all huddled for a few minutes, and finally determined they had erred in lining up the teams. They told us on the scoring bench that the points would stay with Team B because they had made a "non-correctable error" re the alignment, and the game would go ahead from that point.

Originally Posted by AllSports12

Score 2 for Team A and get ready for the barrage coming from the coach of Team B

LOL, you called it. Our Team A coach went ballistic after the decision. Any other game he'd have earned two or more technicals. But the refs just walked him around the floor and waited for him to wind down, and then he sat on the bench and never said another word.

Originally Posted by Philly_Cat

"If by mistake the officials permit a team to go the wrong direction..."

Interestingly, at our game we all knew immediately and tried to alert the officials to this before the tip - the players, the coaches, the benches, the fans - even the scoreboard operator tried to buzz in - all to no avail. Just one of those things.

Originally Posted by Philly_Cat

.....the refs made the mistake. The thing is that they shouldn't, and by rules, can't rewind a game. Thus, a mistake is made, but you must move forward after it. If you start rewinding the game for every mistake made by a ref, coach or player, perceived or otherwise, you open a huge can of worms for everyone wanting everything rewound. Think about just how ugly that could get, how long games would become.

Great teaching point right there. Took me a while, but I finally grasped it.

We still laugh about that game. Both a memorable and educational moment.

[madworld]

Originally Posted by AllSports12
Score 2 for Team A and get ready for the barrage coming from the coach of Team B. (even though she/he missed the problem just as the officials and players did)

I know the rule states as such but There is an insinuation that some blame could be placed on the coaches for not catching it. I always have heard officials say coaches coach and officials officiate and that is how it should be. No doubt the coaches or players could have questioned this but to hint fault on the coaches is a double standard in my opinion.

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by madworld

I know the rule states as such but There is an insinuation that some blame could be placed on the coaches for not catching it. I always have heard officials say coaches coach and officials officiate and that is how it should be. No doubt the coaches or players could have questioned this but to hint fault on the coaches is a double standard in my opinion.

You are reading way too much into this. As I said, there is only one group that is going to take any flak for this and that's the officiating crew. However, others should have seen it as well.

The question was asked and answered...... time to move on

[thavoice]

Pure speculation here:
If I was the coach when the opposing team scored at the wrong bucket and they got credit for the points......IF my team was playing as if it was the right direction then I wouldn't have an issue with it.

IF my team didn't do anything to stop the guy because they knew it was the wrong direction then I would likely have an issue.

The example I gave no team put up a fit, as it was only a JH game (although I saw an JH coach get booted in the first game of the season while down by 25 plus).

I admit, I didn't notice it when they were lined up to jump, but I DID notice when the kid was going for a layup. Just glad the refs stopped it and they did a do over and put the 5 second back on.

[111411]

Clarification.

Scorebooks are filled out and signed by the officials.

At some point after the game begins, Player A enters the game.

His number is incorrect in the scorebook, the officials are notified, and a technical is assessed. The number is now changed in the book.

At a later point, Player B enters the game. A technical is NOT assessed because the offending team has already been assessed ONE technical and may not be assessed another for a scorebook error.

Is that correct?

[AllSports12]

Originally Posted by 111411

Clarification.

Scorebooks are filled out and signed by the officials.

At some point after the game begins, Player A enters the game.

His number is incorrect in the scorebook, the officials are notified, and a technical is assessed. The number is now changed in the book.

At a later point, Player B enters the game. A technical is NOT assessed because the offending team has already been assessed ONE technical and may not be assessed another for a scorebook error.

Is that correct?

Correct