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  #1  
Old 03-05-17, 07:11 PM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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Blowouts

Just saw the Summit Seven Hills score. I'm so sick of seeing teams beat up on others by 60 plus. Summit should be ashamed of themselves. I don't care if it is the tournament and teams are trying to get right to make a run. Its fools gold if you think beating up on a team like that helps you get better. As a former coach I've been on both sides of games like this. There are a thousand things coaches can do to manage the game other than playing their bench. Don't fast break, no threes, must make at least ten passes, walk the ball up the court. Coaches who do this really make me mad. They obviously have no clue what getting beat like that does to a kids psyche. Lets not forget folks these are still high school kids. Summit should be embarrassed.
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Old 03-05-17, 07:18 PM
Cooter26 Cooter26 is offline
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Cry me a river will you. Obviously what they're doing works , & I've seen a lot of team scores way worse than this and don't see them complain as much what you're doing.
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Old 03-05-17, 07:19 PM
hoops96 hoops96 is offline
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I agree Eagles, St V beat Field by a score of 96 to 24 I think, I don't know what the answer is but these type of blowouts can't be good for anybody especially the kids on the receiving end.
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Old 03-05-17, 07:33 PM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cooter26 View Post
Cry me a river will you. Obviously what they're doing works , & I've seen a lot of team scores way worse than this and don't see them complain as much what you're doing.
What works? Beating teams by 70? Are you really trying to justify beating a team like that? What do you get out of that? Tell me one positive from a win like that?
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Old 03-05-17, 07:53 PM
mich97 mich97 is offline
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IMO it's the parents who are more upset about scores like this than the kids playing in the game. Have you ever actually heard a kid who got beat by 70 points complain about it? I never have. If anything, losing by 70 or so points should motivate the players and the teams to get better. This world is tough, and sorry to inform you, but in life when things are going bad the world doesn't lighten up on you...things get tougher most of the time before they get better. If high school sports are about teaching kids life lessons is it really beneficial for an opposing coach to tell his or her team start taking it easy? I would be a heck of a lot more embarrassed as a player if my opponent started taking it easy because they thought I couldn't handle them. The losing team isn't going to get any better or learn anything from their opponent passing the ball 10 times and standing there for three minutes. Take your lumps, because life is going to throw plenty of them at you.
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Old 03-05-17, 08:05 PM
afwpatfire afwpatfire is online now
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Originally Posted by mich97 View Post
IMO it's the parents who are more upset about scores like this than the kids playing in the game. Have you ever actually heard a kid who got beat by 70 points complain about it? I never have. If anything, losing by 70 or so points should motivate the players and the teams to get better. This world is tough, and sorry to inform you, but in life when things are going bad the world doesn't lighten up on you...things get tougher most of the time before they get better. If high school sports are about teaching kids life lessons is it really beneficial for an opposing coach to tell his or her team start taking it easy? I would be a heck of a lot more embarrassed as a player if my opponent started taking it easy because they thought I couldn't handle them. The losing team isn't going to get any better or learn anything from their opponent passing the ball 10 times and standing there for three minutes. Take your lumps, because life is going to throw plenty of them at you.
I think I pretty much agree with this. As long as teams aren't playing their starters until late in the game, I have no problem with it.
Most of the scoring at the end of the game is coming from the bench, how is it fair to handcuff those kids, when they are simply taking advantage of their opportunity to play.
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Old 03-05-17, 08:08 PM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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[QUOTE=mich97;6717868]IMO it's the parents who are more upset about scores like this than the kids playing in the game. Have you ever actually heard a kid who got beat by 70 points complain about it? I never have. If anything, losing by 70 or so points should motivate the players and the teams to get better. This world is tough, and sorry to inform you, but in life when things are going bad the world doesn't lighten up on you...things get tougher most of the time before they get better. If high school sports are about teaching kids life lessons is it really beneficial for an opposing coach to tell his or her team start taking it easy? I would be a heck of a lot more embarrassed as a player if my opponent started taking it easy because they thought I couldn't handle them. The losing team isn't going to get any better or learn anything from their opponent passing the ball 10 times and standing there for three minutes. Take your lumps, because life is going to throw plenty of them at you.[/QUOTE

Or you could teach kids not to kick others when they are down and show empathy. That is something the world needs more of. Not kicking the he'll out of somebody and then telling them to get tough. Sometimes teams are overmatched and it doesn't matter how much they practice they will never be competitive.
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Old 03-05-17, 08:10 PM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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If you think it doesn't bother kids when they get beat like that you are wrong.
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Old 03-05-17, 08:18 PM
afwpatfire afwpatfire is online now
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What do you suggest?

Something similar to a running clock like football?

Call the game after a team takes a 30 point lead?

Simply saying a team needs to show empathy is not a solution, because kids want to play and score. As long as their is still time on the clock kids should be able to score, that's the point of the game. A young player or a Senior player who does not get the opportunity to play very often should not have to stand out there and hold the ball. How is that fair to them?
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Old 03-05-17, 09:01 PM
tndog tndog is offline
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There will be a running clock rule next year because of this issue. Coaches/AD's have aiready been made aware of this by the state, Have not been told the specifics; only that there will be a rule
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Old 03-05-17, 11:42 PM
jwuerth jwuerth is offline
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Maybe you should know what you are talking about before spouting off. Were you at the game? Know someone who was? Know anything at all about the game other than seeing the score?

Since I'm assuming all the answers are no, let's fill you in. Summit's starters sat most of the second half. Not just fouth quarter, most of half. Their two leading scorers combined for 20 of the 93 points. And took a combined 15 shots. Their third leading scorer had 16 points on 7 shots. The big 3 totalled a whopping 36 points. Summit played 14 kids and 13 of them scored. Almost forgot, their 4th leading scorer, wait for it, had 5 points.

Seven Hills also chose to play their second string a ton in the second half. Summit just made a ton of their shots, 67 percent to be exact. They didnt run up the score. And as a coach you should know that you shouldn't ask your second string not to keep playing. Those kids dont play much.

Maybe next time know all the facts before unfairly bashing someone.
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Old 03-06-17, 12:12 AM
buckeye53 buckeye53 is offline
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To put a stop to it, make the tourney like football. A computer point system, based on performance, schedule strength... Or like Oregon does it. They take the top 4 teams, from each league, with a few at large bids for Independents. This eliminates most of the blow-outs, and makes for a far more competitive tourney. Moving on to the post season, is supposed to be a reward for a successful regular season. On occasion, some long shot may survive deep into tourney, but it's rare, and few and far between.
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Old 03-06-17, 12:15 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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How do you tell kids who rarely get to play in games not to play hard? There wereunderclassmen who barely had minutes in the regular season playing for most of the second half- they aren't going to roll over and play dead?! My kids have been on both ends of these blowouts- they have no issues with it as long as the coaches are doing exactly what Summit did. These two teams are conference opponents and summit had beaten them twice during the regular season.
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Old 03-06-17, 07:07 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoops96 View Post
I agree Eagles, St V beat Field by a score of 96 to 24 I think, I don't know what the answer is but these type of blowouts can't be good for anybody especially the kids on the receiving end.
I tend to agree. I wasn't at this STVM game, but I would hope that the Irish emptied the bench for at least the entire fourth quarter. And I would have hoped that the Irish called off the press, but from the score, that doesn't appear to be the case. It's a little more difficult of a question in blowouts, though. For the team ahead, is it fair to the bench players who finally get a chance to play to be told basically to NOT play at the level they have been practicing all year? So I don't always blame the coach unless I see the game and how it unfolded. There are things you can do on both offense and defense to keep the differential down. In blowouts, you can change your defense to practice, for example, a zone as opposed to man-to-man. You can call off the fast break and work on your half court game. You can adjust your offense to get shots for kids at the end of the bench. Maybe you do this and you still win by 70! If STVM cleared their bench, then maybe Field did as well. Again, I wasn't there, so I can't say what steps Coach Dru took in the second half of this game. But before I would castigate him, or any other coach, for running up the score, I'd like to know how the game unfolded.
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Old 03-06-17, 07:08 AM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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Originally Posted by jwuerth View Post
Maybe you should know what you are talking about before spouting off. Were you at the game? Know someone who was? Know anything at all about the game other than seeing the score?

Since I'm assuming all the answers are no, let's fill you in. Summit's starters sat most of the second half. Not just fouth quarter, most of half. Their two leading scorers combined for 20 of the 93 points. And took a combined 15 shots. Their third leading scorer had 16 points on 7 shots. The big 3 totalled a whopping 36 points. Summit played 14 kids and 13 of them scored. Almost forgot, their 4th leading scorer, wait for it, had 5 points.

Seven Hills also chose to play their second string a ton in the second half. Summit just made a ton of their shots, 67 percent to be exact. They didnt run up the score. And as a coach you should know that you shouldn't ask your second string not to keep playing. Those kids dont play much.

Maybe next time know all the facts before unfairly bashing someone.
Those are all lame excuses for refusing to manage the game properly. I'm sorry if a kid doesn't get to play much but that is no excuse for allowing this to happen. The more important lesson to teach kids is the right way to treat others. Were not talking about beatng someone by 30 were talking 70 points. There's a difference. Come on. 70 points. That's ridiculous.
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Old 03-06-17, 07:44 AM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Originally Posted by Eagles123 View Post
Those are all lame excuses for refusing to manage the game properly. I'm sorry if a kid doesn't get to play much but that is no excuse for allowing this to happen. The more important lesson to teach kids is the right way to treat others. Were not talking about beating someone by 30 were talking 70 points. There's a difference. Come on. 70 points. That's ridiculous.
Now... THOSE are all lame excuses... For starters, teams are in the position that they are in now because of what they did in the regular season, which is why the match-ups were what they were last week. Like jwuerth said, you can't expect kids on the bench to lay down during the limited amount of playing time that they get. Everyone is trying to get better, which ultimately, is what a team that's getting blown out should want to do, correct?

I'm a Warren G. Harding fan. Over the years, I've seen the basketball program take huge losses to Canton McKinley, Lakewood St. Edward, George Junior Republic from PA (They used to be really good. They once beat Akron SVSM when LBJ was a junior in HS), etc. Maybe not by 70, but in 2005, McKinley destroyed a previously 22-1 WGH team 83-41 in the district final! When you're a competitor, you should use your huge losses as motivation to get better. That's exactly what WGH has done as now, kids in the program know how to strive for success and fight through adversity. In fact, the last time that WGH played George Junior about a decade ago, they beat them by 60-70 points (can't remember the exact score, but it was pretty bad) in PA! That wasn't that long after George Junior used to pound WGH every year.

Since 2005, WGH has played in 10 district championship games (winning 4). You can't succeed in life without experiencing failure first, which is something that young athletes usually realize before their peers do. If you don't want to get the brakes beat off of you, work harder and get better because life doesn't even give you an "A" when you do good things, so it's definitely not going to hold your hand when things get rough. If losing a basketball game by 70+ is the worst thing that ever happened in those kids' lives, then they are pretty lucky because they haven't seen anything yet. Instead of waiting for something really bad to happen, they better use their adversity as a motivator to get stronger physically & mentally.
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Old 03-06-17, 07:54 AM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
Now... THOSE are all lame excuses... For starters, teams are in the position that they are in now because of what they did in the regular season, which is why the match-ups were what they were last week. Like jwuerth said, you can't expect kids on the bench to lay down during the limited amount of playing time that they get. Everyone is trying to get better, which ultimately, is what a team that's getting blown out should want to do, correct?



I'm a Warren G. Harding fan. Over the years, I've seen the basketball program take huge losses to Canton McKinley, Lakewood St. Edward, George Junior Republic from PA (They used to be really good. They once beat Akron SVSM when LBJ was a junior in HS), etc. Maybe not by 70, but in 2005, McKinley destroyed a previously 22-1 WGH team 83-41 in the district final! When you're a competitor, you should use your huge losses as motivation to get better. That's exactly what WGH has done as now, kids in the program know how to strive for success and fight through adversity. In fact, the last time that WGH played George Junior about a decade ago, they beat them by 60-70 points (can't remember the exact score, but it was pretty bad) in PA! That wasn't that long after George Junior used to pound WGH every year.

Since 2005, WGH has played in 10 district championship games (winning 4). You can't succeed in life without experiencing failure first, which is something that young athletes usually realize before their peers do. If you don't want to get the brakes beat off of you, work harder and get better because life doesn't even give you an "A" when you do good things, so it's definitely not going to hold your hand when things get rough. If losing a basketball game by 70+ is the worst thing that ever happened in those kids' lives, then they are pretty lucky because they haven't seen anything yet. Instead of waiting for something really bad to happen, they better use their adversity as a motivator to get stronger physically & mentally.
Nothing you said makes any difference in this argument. 70 is simply too much. Any argument against the concept that 70 is too much is ridiculous.
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Old 03-06-17, 08:18 AM
jwuerth jwuerth is offline
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Originally Posted by Eagles123 View Post
Those are all lame excuses for refusing to manage the game properly. I'm sorry if a kid doesn't get to play much but that is no excuse for allowing this to happen. The more important lesson to teach kids is the right way to treat others. Were not talking about beatng someone by 30 were talking 70 points. There's a difference. Come on. 70 points. That's ridiculous.
Well, you clearly dont like facts, but that's ok. And you clearly don't get it. Funny how Seven Hills coaches had zero issue how Summit "managed" the game. Maybe next time comment after you know that facts.
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Old 03-06-17, 08:27 AM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Originally Posted by Eagles123 View Post
Nothing you said makes any difference in this argument. 70 is simply too much. Any argument against the concept that 70 is too much is ridiculous.
Thankfully, I live in a community where I can motivate our youth to look at adversity in the face and punch it in the mouth. Because of that, they won't grow up to be soft adults. Keep holding your youth's hand when things don't go their way because one day, "Mommy," "Daddy," and people like yourself won't be around to make excuses for them.
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Old 03-06-17, 08:28 AM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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Well, you clearly dont like facts, but that's ok. And you clearly don't get it. Funny how Seven Hills coaches had zero issue how Summit "managed" the game. Maybe next time comment after you know that facts.

Facts are they won by 70. Fact is coaches did have an issue. Fact is people that get beat like that dont complain because they dont want to call attention to the situation. Fact is you dont get it. High school sports should be about something more. If this is ok then why would the state be about to adopt a rule to prevent it from happening? Too much confusion around what is important. If you dont think you can manage the game better to prevent this from happening you probably have never been a coach.
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Old 03-06-17, 08:31 AM
3out2in 3out2in is online now
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Originally Posted by buckeye53 View Post
To put a stop to it, make the tourney like football. A computer point system, based on performance, schedule strength... Or like Oregon does it. They take the top 4 teams, from each league, with a few at large bids for Independents. This eliminates most of the blow-outs, and makes for a far more competitive tourney. Moving on to the post season, is supposed to be a reward for a successful regular season. On occasion, some long shot may survive deep into tourney, but it's rare, and few and far between.
Disagree. I don't want any part of a Harbin-like system for basketball. For every game in the sectional that was a blowout, there were 4 or 5 that were close, semi-close or OT games. Now, if we want a running clock in blowout games, that's something to consider. Taking 4 or so teams from each league will still give you blowouts because there is a huge disparity in the quality of conferences.
Last year's state champion in DIV would not even have made the tournament under a Harbin system or a top teams in a league scenario. Instead, their difficult schedule paid off come tournament time and they ran the table, defeating the #1 ranked team in the state (a team that would have easily qualified under any Harbin or other scenario) in, you guessed it, a blowout.
So leave the system as is. I like that everyone gets in. As I said, if a running clock is feasible, then it should be implemented.
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Old 03-06-17, 08:38 AM
BigWorm BigWorm is online now
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To me, if you are up by a lot the only thing you worry about is health. I would try to beat the other team by as much as you can as long as your kids stay healthy. Teams/people need to be taught lessons of not belonging. You need to send a message that they are not good enough to be on the court with you. Hopefully these kids will stop trying to play sports and fit in at art club or choir...
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Old 03-06-17, 08:41 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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You need to watch one of these games to form an opinion. A lopsided score, by itself, doesn't raise my blood pressure. Some games are relatively well-contested and the other team is just better in all phases. But the game is played, contested.

My standard comments on this subject...

1. I agree with the comments that this issue deals primarily with the feelings of adults. The vast majority of the kids are resilient, have short memories and they want to compete. The problem with many of these games is that they got scheduled. A team that plays very weak opponents during the season should be condemned, but sometimes it just happens in the tournament.

2. The critics always focus on the score. If the problem is the score and the margin of victory, why don't the critics look to the lesser team to do something about it? If you want the better team to monkey with the game (10 passes, no threes, etc.), why not look to the weaker team and ask them to stand near half-court and hold the ball? Or, if it's all too much, just forfeit. As for the better team...sure, get your better players off the floor relatively quickly. Reduce the fast break, maybe play defense only inside the 3 point arc. But that's about it. It's still a basketball game.

3. I've coached and played in huge blowouts. When I was in grade school, I played on a CYO "B" team that played one of Cleveland best CYO "A" teams in a tournament. They pressed us the entire game, winning something like 60-10. The opposing coach told our coach "that's the only defense we play". I thought that was a load of BS, but still, we got to play against some really good players and it was all right.

4. I coached a CYO game about 10 years ago. We were clearly outclassed. Really had no chance. Play a conservative zone, we lose for certain, probably 30-10. I decided that, if the game had to be played (and it did), we would play a man, compete, try, see what happens. We lost 50-5. But, I pressed the action and really had no complaints about our opponent's tactics.

5. I had another CYO game that I coached about 15 years ago. We weren't very good that year either (I did have SOME good teams ) . We were getting hammered, about 30-5, in the 3rd quarter. I looked up at the scoreboard and the score had been turned off. The gym officials told me "that's what we do when the game gets out of hand". I told them I thought the score being off was more embarrassing than the score and not to do it to my teams in the future.

A good A $ $ kicking can really clear the mind. It's not the worst thing in the world.

From one of my favorite movies...

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/bcfa682...3-ceed10b73531

Last edited by CatAlum; 03-06-17 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 03-06-17, 08:47 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by BigWorm View Post
To me, if you are up by a lot the only thing you worry about is health. I would try to beat the other team by as much as you can as long as your kids stay healthy. Teams/people need to be taught lessons of not belonging. You need to send a message that they are not good enough to be on the court with you. Hopefully these kids will stop trying to play sports and fit in at art club or choir...
Shouldn't sports be for everyone? I'm probably more on your side than the other side, but you want to run people out of sports? I thought sports benefit everyone?
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Old 03-06-17, 08:55 AM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
Thankfully, I live in a community where I can motivate our youth to look at adversity in the face and punch it in the mouth. Because of that, they won't grow up to be soft adults. Keep holding your youth's hand when things don't go their way because one day, "Mommy," "Daddy," and people like yourself won't be around to make excuses for them.
Its not about excuses its about taking it too far. Winning by 30 should be enough to motivate others to do better. Winning by 70 is debilitating. This has nothing to do with making people soft. Not everything is about flexing.
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Old 03-06-17, 09:10 AM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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To me, if you are up by a lot the only thing you worry about is health. I would try to beat the other team by as much as you can as long as your kids stay healthy. Teams/people need to be taught lessons of not belonging. You need to send a message that they are not good enough to be on the court with you. Hopefully these kids will stop trying to play sports and fit in at art club or choir...
Its this type of thinking that is ruining high school sports.
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Old 03-06-17, 09:13 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by BigWorm View Post
To me, if you are up by a lot the only thing you worry about is health. I would try to beat the other team by as much as you can as long as your kids stay healthy. Teams/people need to be taught lessons of not belonging. You need to send a message that they are not good enough to be on the court with you. Hopefully these kids will stop trying to play sports and fit in at art club or choir...
I don't know, you've proven time and again that you don't belong on Yappi. But you haven't seemed to get the message!
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Old 03-06-17, 09:14 AM
kingpin2010 kingpin2010 is online now
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Its not about excuses its about taking it too far. Winning by 30 should be enough to motivate others to do better. Winning by 70 is debilitating. This has nothing to do with making people soft. Not everything is about flexing.
Debilitating? Have you been around teenagers? They likely have forgotten about the game by the time they get on the bus. Do you really think they're sitting there sulking becsuse they lost by 70 and not 30? What was said above is true, adults are the only ones that really care/get worked up about this. Though it would be more embarrassing to the losing team if the team ahead made the game a mockery so the adults in the stands don't get all rustled because of the final score.
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Old 03-06-17, 09:16 AM
Eagles123 Eagles123 is offline
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Debilitating? Have you been around teenagers? They likely have forgotten about the game by the time they get on the bus. Do you really think they're sitting there sulking becsuse they lost by 70 and not 30? What was said above is true, adults are the only ones that really care/get worked up about this.

You are wrong. I am a teacher. I am around kids all day. It does bother them. Probably more than you know or more than they let on.
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Old 03-06-17, 09:20 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by kingpin2010 View Post
Debilitating? Have you been around teenagers? They likely have forgotten about the game by the time they get on the bus. Do you really think they're sitting there sulking becsuse they lost by 70 and not 30? What was said above is true, adults are the only ones that really care/get worked up about this. Though it would be more embarrassing to the losing team if the team ahead made the game a mockery so the adults in the stands don't get all rustled because of the final score.
As I think about it...I coached a lot of bad teams.

About 20 years ago, I coached a high school CYO team from a white, middle class parish. These were terrific kids, but mostly chess nerds, debate club kids, drama club. As sometimes happens with CYO, they put us in an inner city league with mostly minority kids who loved the game and were good at it. Our opponents showed us no mercy...they took one look at my team and the opponent became highly motivated . Most games...final score was 70-20, 60-30...that was typical. My kids LOVED playing on this team, were briefly disappointed, but were over it before they walked into the parking lot...and they competed hard...really a great group of young men. Me, on the other hand...I thought about driving into oncoming traffic on the way home from the games. The kids were fine...I couldn't take it.
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