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  #61  
Old 03-31-17, 07:24 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
It's a fixed amount that follow children when they open enroll to a different public school other than their home district. It comes from the state and is around $5000 per student.

Obviously you don't pay that amount directly each year in property taxes as those taxes are divided up for a variety of purposes.

But you can look up how it works, the actual amount the receiving district gets, etc.
You are misled. The taxes you pay are for the property that you won IN a school district. The state then turns around and provides a school a base amount of money for every student in that school. You do not pay taxes for your student. Your taxes are based on property values and not students in your home.
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  #62  
Old 03-31-17, 09:09 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
You are misled. The taxes you pay are for the property that you won IN a school district. The state then turns around and provides a school a base amount of money for every student in that school. You do not pay taxes for your student. Your taxes are based on property values and not students in your home.
I didn't say the taxes are based on the students in my home. Why do you always try to put words in others' mouths? I know I don't pay taxes for my students. I actually pay taxes for ALL students. So do my elderly neighbors who haven't had a student in 30 years. So do the people down the street that don't have kids yet.

The point is, when a student open enrolls to another public district the receiving district gets a boost in money from the state. I'd like to see something similar if students decide to attend a private school.
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  #63  
Old 03-31-17, 10:23 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Always put words in others mouths???

Your words = I do support the portion that is basically assigned to my kids following my kids to the school of their choice.

There is no money assigned to your kids. The schools get tax dollars based on the number of students. If your kid does not go to a public school they do not get the money. It was a simple post I made, sorry if I confused you. Private school is a choice and they are funded privately. If the state begins to fund them, I feel they should become a public school.
If you sell your car and start taking the bus you do not get the street taxes you pay to cover paying for your bus pass.
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  #64  
Old 03-31-17, 10:34 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Always put words in others mouths???

Your words = I do support the portion that is basically assigned to my kids following my kids to the school of their choice.

There is no money assigned to your kids. The schools get tax dollars based on the number of students. If your kid does not go to a public school they do not get the money. It was a simple post I made, sorry if I confused you. Private school is a choice and they are funded privately. If the state begins to fund them, I feel they should become a public school.
If you sell your car and start taking the bus you do not get the street taxes you pay to cover paying for your bus pass.
If I choose to send my kids to a neighboring district....that school gets money from the state. The local district loses money from the state. I pay taxes to the state and locally....a portion of which goes towards education.

The state already funds private schools in a variety of ways. That horse has already left the barn.
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  #65  
Old 03-31-17, 11:37 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Very well said. You can move a team like VASJ up a division, but another team public or private will take its place. You cannot separate the urban from the rural and that is always going to be an issue. The urban kids who play hoops all year round and play the AAU circuit are always going to have the advantage over the rural team that is comprised in many cases by kids who play multiple sports and only concentrate on basketball in the Winter.

VASJ only has 155 boys so they cannot expect to have to compete with schools like Ed's or Iggy that are honestly 10x their size. Mind you boys basketball, girls volleyball and track are really the only programs competitive. Football is hit or miss and the rest of the sports struggle pretty badly. You cannot penalize all the sports teams because the school happens to have developed an elite level boys basketball program. We had a very competitive girls team the last few years. They got to state twice and lost in the semis both times. They got bumped up a division and were nowhere near as competitive.

I do not believe in punishing a team for being great either. I think part of the problem is that these rural teams think they are better then they are. The AP ranks these teams high and the kids and parents think this is the year we win it all and it creates a false sense of accomplishment. Then they play a urban team or a team like VASJ that is ranked in the bottom of the state and they are stunned. The truth is they were not as good as people led them to believe they were. It's like a boxer who makes his way to the top knocking out bums, then fights a real fighter and gets his head kicked it. We played Garretsville Garfield in the regional semi in Canton. They were feeling pretty good about themselves after knocking off the AP darlings LeBrae. They NEVER expected to get 40 balled by Joe's and actually have their starters outplayed by the VASJ JV squad in the 4th quarter.

The point I guess I'm trying to make is unless you add more divisions the rural teams are always going to be at a distinct disadvantage to the rural or inner city teams - especially ones with open enrollment. Every year in our district there is one or two public teams that if they could only get by VASJ - watch out. You can bump SVSM to D1 and who would take their place in D2 - VASJ. Where is the benefit. Remove Joe's from D3 and get Lutheran East up from D4. The rural schools just have the decked stacked against them weather its the urban privates or public. The best team in some of those schools history unfortunately is just a mediocre team to many of the urban schools. It stinks but it's true.
Well, more good points. I do have a little problem with a few things. You can't just look at VASJ, for example, as an entire entity, otherwise, as you argued, you move them up in hoops but that hurts them in football. No, the basketball program would be one thing, and the football program would be a totally separate thing. Also, if you are a great team, and you are put in a situation where you have to compete against teams of similar talent, size, and skill, it is hard for me to understand where the "punishment" is in that. And finally, everyone understands who and what VASJ is in a DIII or IV contest. No one is underestimating them or inflating themselves. It requires honesty to see and admit, but what they are thinking is that this one thing here (VASJ) is not like the other (say, Garaway). Garaway plays in a pretty good DIII-IV conference, so they understand what good DIII teams look and play like. In addition they schedule up in their non-conf, so they understand what a good DII team looks like. So, if a Garaway works it's way through it's sectional, district, and regional - facing increasingly good DIII teams along the way - they have seen throughout the regular season and tournament what DIII basketball is and looks like. Then they go to the state tournament, and they run into something that looks very similar to the teams that are playing in the DI semis. So, that's where this arises from, and it's not irrational. It certainly isn't because a bunch of rubes don't have the intellectual sophistication to understand what they are seeing.

But think about this question: How many teams cause a competitive balance problem in each sport? My sense is that the answer is a relatively low number. My guess would be around 10 or less in each division, and I'm inflating what I think it really is.

Div I isn't a factor in this discussion. If you have DI enrollment numbers, you should have a talent pool sufficient to get teams together and compete against other larger schools. So, if we would only look at the lower 3 divisions, we are talking about examining 30 teams, probably less.

That's something a committee could get a handle on and deal with. There would have to be criteria that defines the kind of team that creates a competitive imbalance, there would have to be a reporting mechanism that brings a particular program to the committee, and then there would have to be criteria that determines which division that team would be assigned to. That's how you fix this, I believe, with the least collateral damage. However, the devil would be in the details, and it could go wrong about 10 different ways.

But we have the tools with power rankings, strength of schedule ratings, etc. that make it easy to compare teams. A diverse committee usually is able to cancel bias, and a consensus opinion is usually a good one.

That said, in the end, I'm not totally against just leaving it as it has always been, and telling people to get over it. There are other options: the old Indiana way, private/public split, and others. I'm most tired of all this bitterness. How long has this argument been going on? Someone told me since the early 70's. End it one way or another.

My daughter played in 3 state champ games and my son in 1 state semi. What a privilege that was for both of them. They learned a ton of things through basketball that are helping them in life. If my daughter had won 3 state championships and my son 1, would their lives be any better than they are today? I don't think so. They would just have some different color medals in a box in my basement. So, if it doesn't ultimately matter, why are we so angry and this issue is so divisive?

I think there is a best solution out there, but it involves diagnosing the disease and directing the cure to the disease. If the OHSAA and member schools don't have the desire or ability to find that solution, then they should end the argument by saying that life in this imperfect world is unfair, this is the way it is going to be, and that's the last word on it.

Last edited by IVCguy; 03-31-17 at 11:59 AM.
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  #66  
Old 03-31-17, 11:49 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
If I choose to send my kids to a neighboring district....that school gets money from the state. The local district loses money from the state. I pay taxes to the state and locally....a portion of which goes towards education.

The state already funds private schools in a variety of ways. That horse has already left the barn.
As I said, the public school get monies from the state based on the number of students they have. This money comes from every property owner regardless of kids living on that property. Technically, if a kid changes public schools the funds do not follow them but the count for the schools does change and so would the funding. Funds are assessed by each school and their factors. Splitting hairs, but as I said before it was a simple comment I made. You asking for control of spending your tax dollars because you have kids, what say does the property owner who does not have kids get? A refund?
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  #67  
Old 03-31-17, 12:31 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
As I said, the public school get monies from the state based on the number of students they have. This money comes from every property owner regardless of kids living on that property. Technically, if a kid changes public schools the funds do not follow them but the count for the schools does change and so would the funding. Funds are assessed by each school and their factors. Splitting hairs, but as I said before it was a simple comment I made. You asking for control of spending your tax dollars because you have kids, what say does the property owner who does not have kids get? A refund?
You would sing a different tune if you paid thousands of dollars in property taxes to a failed school district and yet still couldn't send your child there due to safety and educational concerns. Move your family to Cleveland, Euclid, East Cleveland, Maple Hts, Garfield Hts etc or districts with drug and bullying problems and get back to us after a year.
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  #68  
Old 03-31-17, 02:04 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
As I said, the public school get monies from the state based on the number of students they have. This money comes from every property owner regardless of kids living on that property. Technically, if a kid changes public schools the funds do not follow them but the count for the schools does change and so would the funding. Funds are assessed by each school and their factors. Splitting hairs, but as I said before it was a simple comment I made. You asking for control of spending your tax dollars because you have kids, what say does the property owner who does not have kids get? A refund?
No...no refund. Everyone is still paying their taxes. In fact, the local taxes that go to the local school district would stay with the school district. Those funds don't "transfer" to the district receiving the open enrollment kids. It's just the state funds that transfer.

So, because we choose to send our kids to a private school the local district receives both my local and state taxes that are earmarked for education. If I moved my kids to a neighboring public district...the local district loses the state funding for my kids and the open enrollment district receives that state funding. The local funding remains regardless. And since I live in a district that also has an income tax for education, they still receive that too. At least that is my understanding of the process.

Basically what I am saying, because the state is already doing this to a certain level through open enrollment and vouchers, is that families that choose to send their kids to a private school over the local district should be able use that same state funding that an open enrollment district would receive or a private school would receive - if the local district is failing - towards their private school of choice.
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  #69  
Old 03-31-17, 04:21 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
You would sing a different tune if you paid thousands of dollars in property taxes to a failed school district and yet still couldn't send your child there due to safety and educational concerns. Move your family to Cleveland, Euclid, East Cleveland, Maple Hts, Garfield Hts etc or districts with drug and bullying problems and get back to us after a year.
I would not sing that tune. I moved to put my kids in a good public school system. And after a year+ I'm still here and they have grown and gone.
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  #70  
Old 03-31-17, 04:29 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
No...no refund. Everyone is still paying their taxes. In fact, the local taxes that go to the local school district would stay with the school district. Those funds don't "transfer" to the district receiving the open enrollment kids. It's just the state funds that transfer.

So, because we choose to send our kids to a private school the local district receives both my local and state taxes that are earmarked for education. If I moved my kids to a neighboring public district...the local district loses the state funding for my kids and the open enrollment district receives that state funding. The local funding remains regardless. And since I live in a district that also has an income tax for education, they still receive that too. At least that is my understanding of the process.

Basically what I am saying, because the state is already doing this to a certain level through open enrollment and vouchers, is that families that choose to send their kids to a private school over the local district should be able use that same state funding that an open enrollment district would receive or a private school would receive - if the local district is failing - towards their private school of choice.
Public schools get state money for the kids in their classrooms. If your's goes to a private school the public school does not get state money for your kids. And the the district income tax would have been on a ballot and voted so your community wanted it.
Basically what I am saying is attending a private school is a choice. A freedom that I support and have no issues with anyone who wants to take advantage of it. But understand that certain choices may cost more for you to get the benefit.
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  #71  
Old 03-31-17, 04:56 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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"The last 5 or 6 years VASJ has grown every year because they only accept kids that fit the educational and behavior template they have established." That is where the rub is. Public schools do not have that choice they actually have to try an educate kids no matter what their GPA or socio-economic conditions are. Catholic schools can pick and choose who they want : if you have the cash or the talent come on down if not don't apply.

Last edited by Stirred not Shaken; 03-31-17 at 05:07 PM.
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  #72  
Old 03-31-17, 05:47 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
"The last 5 or 6 years VASJ has grown every year because they only accept kids that fit the educational and behavior template they have established." That is where the rub is. Public schools do not have that choice they actually have to try an educate kids no matter what their GPA or socio-economic conditions are. Catholic schools can pick and choose who they want : if you have the cash or the talent come on down if not don't apply.
I can only speak for my Catholic school. We do not pick and choose anybody, parents have to pick us. All are welcome regardless of religious affiliation, race, ethnicity, etc... We do not test for admission. A student must meet the requirements of attending our school: school uniforms, religion classes, Mass attendance, community service, etc... No one is turned away due to finances. We offer tuition assistance that is handled by an outside company and talent of any kind is not considered. No one attends for free but if you want to attend here we will help you. There is not enough population in the Delphos area for us to be picky on who can attend our school and some of the requirements listed eliminate a great many people from even considering attending.
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  #73  
Old 03-31-17, 06:08 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Jay Fan View Post
I can only speak for my Catholic school. We do not pick and choose anybody, parents have to pick us. All are welcome regardless of religious affiliation, race, ethnicity, etc... We do not test for admission. A student must meet the requirements of attending our school: school uniforms, religion classes, Mass attendance, community service, etc... No one is turned away due to finances. We offer tuition assistance that is handled by an outside company and talent of any kind is not considered. No one attends for free but if you want to attend here we will help you. There is not enough population in the Delphos area for us to be picky on who can attend our school and some of the requirements listed eliminate a great many people from even considering attending.
Good for DSJ.
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  #74  
Old 03-31-17, 06:26 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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Good for DSJ.
Thanks. I just wish so many people would stop lumping us all together.

Last edited by Blue Jay Fan; 04-01-17 at 08:46 AM.
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  #75  
Old 03-31-17, 09:20 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Public schools get state money for the kids in their classrooms. If your's goes to a private school the public school does not get state money for your kids. And the the district income tax would have been on a ballot and voted so your community wanted it.
Basically what I am saying is attending a private school is a choice. A freedom that I support and have no issues with anyone who wants to take advantage of it. But understand that certain choices may cost more for you to get the benefit.
I voted for the income tax. I want the local schools to be strong.

If what you are saying is true then there is a surplus of money floating around somewhere, right? Or there should be considering all the students that attend private schools that are not on vouchers. My kids don't attend a public school. If they did, there would be tax money flowing there. So....Where did it go?

Believe me...I understand certain choices can cost more. But that money is specifically intended for educating students. It makes sense it should follow the students. At this point, it probably will never impact me if it ever did get changed BUT I would certainly want it to at least go to my local school rather than the state which is what you are saying is happening.
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  #76  
Old 04-01-17, 07:59 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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If you have $10k in your pocket and you and your wife have 1 child you can give it $10k. If you two have 4 children you can give them $2,500.
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  #77  
Old 04-01-17, 12:23 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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If you have $10k in your pocket and you and your wife have 1 child you can give it $10k. If you two have 4 children you can give them $2,500.
Yes but the state is giving the same amount per kid not a fixed amount divisible by the number of kids enrolled.
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  #78  
Old 04-01-17, 02:02 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Yes but the state is giving the same amount per kid not a fixed amount divisible by the number of kids enrolled.
Each district has a formula used to determine the amount. What each district get per child is not the same. So in theory if kids change schools the money could not be the same for many reasons.
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  #79  
Old 04-01-17, 08:04 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Each district has a formula used to determine the amount. What each district get per child is not the same. So in theory if kids change schools the money could not be the same for many reasons.
Pretty sure the amount a district gets for an OE student is fixed. Same for students using vouchers. If there is some formula for the home district I am not sure.

But either way, there is state money our home district isn't getting because we send the kids to a private school.

You've done a good job explaining how a district gets money from the state. But you have not explained where the money goes for kids not on vouchers that are attending private schools. Is this a situation where the state funds OE and vouchers by banking on some kids attending private schools? Rob Peter to Paul kind of thing?
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  #80  
Old 04-02-17, 06:51 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
"The last 5 or 6 years VASJ has grown every year because they only accept kids that fit the educational and behavior template they have established." That is where the rub is. Public schools do not have that choice they actually have to try an educate kids no matter what their GPA or socio-economic conditions are. Catholic schools can pick and choose who they want : if you have the cash or the talent come on down if not don't apply.
That is not entirely true. VASJ gives a ton of aid to kids that qualify. Outsiders think the only kids that qualify are athletes - when in fact it's quite the opposite. Most of the kids that get aid are just regular students. The reason why VASJ is so selective is because when they weren't it chased away quality neighborhood kids and more importantly alumni. The school was becoming a public school that you pay tuition to. Now the school screens kids to keep out the riff raff and it attracts kids and families that actually value a better education. Basketball is only a small portion of the great things going on at the school - not the only thing.
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  #81  
Old 04-02-17, 09:05 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Pretty sure the amount a district gets for an OE student is fixed. Same for students using vouchers. If there is some formula for the home district I am not sure.

But either way, there is state money our home district isn't getting because we send the kids to a private school.

You've done a good job explaining how a district gets money from the state. But you have not explained where the money goes for kids not on vouchers that are attending private schools. Is this a situation where the state funds OE and vouchers by banking on some kids attending private schools? Rob Peter to Paul kind of thing?
If every private school student would go to public school next year the amount per student a school receives would decline. The same happens in reverse. Monies fluctuate each year so the amount can change. If more kids went to private schools the average amount for each student at a public school would increase.
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  #82  
Old 04-02-17, 09:18 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
That is not entirely true. VASJ gives a ton of aid to kids that qualify. Outsiders think the only kids that qualify are athletes - when in fact it's quite the opposite. Most of the kids that get aid are just regular students. The reason why VASJ is so selective is because when they weren't it chased away quality neighborhood kids and more importantly alumni. The school was becoming a public school that you pay tuition to. Now the school screens kids to keep out the riff raff and it attracts kids and families that actually value a better education. Basketball is only a small portion of the great things going on at the school - not the only thing.
Just because it is a small part of the process does not mean it does not happen. If they screen 100 kids each year they only 50 could be screened for athletics and maybe need 10 with basketball references. The other 50 could be looked at to keep the academics standards high.
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  #83  
Old 04-02-17, 10:05 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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They screen over 200 kids and about 150 or so make it. They do not want to regress into what they were before. They would gladly take 200 kids i in a year if they all meet the standards. People think that schools like Joe's only screen kids so they can excel at sports. If that was the case the other sports would be much better as well. Having first hand knowledge I can tell you NOBODY goes the Joe's FREE. Regardless of height, PPG, etc ALL the kids pay. Now based on economic situation some kids pay less - but that is the case with every kid in the school. A major majority of the student body is there to get an exceptional education in a much better environment then the local public school options.
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  #84  
Old 04-02-17, 05:50 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I would not sing that tune. I moved to put my kids in a good public school system. And after a year+ I'm still here and they have grown and gone.
Wow, well good for you. Isn't that terrific. You should be so proud of yourself, your perfect home, perfect family, perfect school, and a great job that can provide you all of that. That is wonderful, congratulations.
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  #85  
Old 04-02-17, 06:05 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
They screen over 200 kids and about 150 or so make it. They do not want to regress into what they were before. They would gladly take 200 kids i in a year if they all meet the standards. People think that schools like Joe's only screen kids so they can excel at sports. If that was the case the other sports would be much better as well. Having first hand knowledge I can tell you NOBODY goes the Joe's FREE. Regardless of height, PPG, etc ALL the kids pay. Now based on economic situation some kids pay less - but that is the case with every kid in the school. A major majority of the student body is there to get an exceptional education in a much better environment then the local public school options.
Hard to bring in 150 each year when you graduate just over 115 a year and stay in the same division for sports.
"People" think they screen kids for many reasons but sports is the one that upsets high school sports fans.
Do any kids get sponsored? Or do you know?
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  #86  
Old 04-02-17, 06:08 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Wow, well good for you. Isn't that terrific. You should be so proud of yourself, your perfect home, perfect family, perfect school, and a great job that can provide you all of that. That is wonderful, congratulations.
I make no claim to have anything that is perfect. All I said was I made a move to a different school district. Anyone can do that.
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  #87  
Old 04-02-17, 08:04 PM
SeeYaSometime SeeYaSometime is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Pretty sure the amount a district gets for an OE student is fixed. Same for students using vouchers. If there is some formula for the home district I am not sure.

But either way, there is state money our home district isn't getting because we send the kids to a private school.

You've done a good job explaining how a district gets money from the state. But you have not explained where the money goes for kids not on vouchers that are attending private schools. Is this a situation where the state funds OE and vouchers by banking on some kids attending private schools? Rob Peter to Paul kind of thing?
When my brother was principal in a Catholic elementary school not too long ago, he would get a call from the local public school district superintendent early in the school year wanting to know how many students were enrolled. The superintendent would include that number in his district's count and collect state dollars for all. That money stayed with and was used by the public schools increasing their per pupil amount. None went to the children in the parochial school.

That explains where the money goes for students not qualifying for vouchers. Vouchers only cover about 50% of the tuition cost for students who qualify. The family is supposed to come up with the rest.
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  #88  
Old 04-02-17, 08:31 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by SeeYaSometime View Post
When my brother was principal in a Catholic elementary school not too long ago, he would get a call from the local public school district superintendent early in the school year wanting to know how many students were enrolled. The superintendent would include that number in his district's count and collect state dollars for all. That money stayed with and was used by the public schools increasing their per pupil amount. None went to the children in the parochial school.

That explains where the money goes for students not qualifying for vouchers. Vouchers only cover about 50% of the tuition cost for students who qualify. The family is supposed to come up with the rest.
Then your brother and the superintendent should both be turned in to the state, lose their positions and charged.
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Old 04-02-17, 09:01 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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If every private school student would go to public school next year the amount per student a school receives would decline. The same happens in reverse. Monies fluctuate each year so the amount can change. If more kids went to private schools the average amount for each student at a public school would increase.
Yet the amount an OE district receives from the state is fixed....
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  #90  
Old 04-02-17, 09:14 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Yet the amount an OE district receives from the state is fixed....
That state has a formula they use for each district. Some may end up being the same but it's not fixed.
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