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  #31  
Old 03-28-17, 11:59 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Please. Now you sound like massillons head FB coach. More concerned with "saving" these poor kids than their talent? RIGHT! HAHAHA!!
You are so obviously biased, it's embarrassing.
You're way more biased (just in the other direction) than me.

I support a families right to choose the education they want. If there is a better option out there for them and they can make it work, I have no issue with that. Really don't understand why you take exception to a person's right to choose the best educational system for them. For many people, sports is part of the educational system. It's more important for some than others.

If a kid can attend a different school and get to play sports (or participate in band, drama, etc.) versus staying at their local public that's great. Sure beats having them on the street selling drugs, robbing, etc.
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  #32  
Old 03-28-17, 12:18 PM
BulldogBob BulldogBob is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You're way more biased (just in the other direction) than me.

I support a families right to choose the education they want. If there is a better option out there for them and they can make it work, I have no issue with that. Really don't understand why you take exception to a person's right to choose the best educational system for them. For many people, sports is part of the educational system. It's more important for some than others.

If a kid can attend a different school and get to play sports (or participate in band, drama, etc.) versus staying at their local public that's great. Sure beats having them on the street selling drugs, robbing, etc.
I support a family's right to choose educational systems; however, I don't think general public taxes to pay for private educations is right, either. Also, Catholic kids sell drugs,rob, etc. as well, so I don't get your point about that. In fact, St.V ST. Mary feel the need to have student alcohol guards in place @ their stadium.
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  #33  
Old 03-28-17, 12:21 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by BulldogBob View Post
I support a family's right to choose educational systems; however, I don't think general public taxes to pay for private educations it is right, either. Also, Catholic kids sell drugs,rob, etc. as well, so I don't get your point about that. In fact, St.V ST. Mary feel the need to have student alcohol guards in place @ their stadium.
Wow! You took such a HUGE leap of logic there! I have NO IDEA what point you were trying to make, but you certainly jumped off the cliff with that one!
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  #34  
Old 03-28-17, 12:25 PM
BulldogBob BulldogBob is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
Wow! You took such a HUGE leap of logic there! I have NO IDEA what point you were trying to make, but you certainly jumped off the cliff with that one!
You rather obviously needed to attend a school where comprehension is valued rather more than recruiting.
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  #35  
Old 03-28-17, 12:30 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by BulldogBob View Post
I support a family's right to choose educational systems; however, I don't think general public taxes to pay for private educations is right, either. Also, Catholic kids sell drugs,rob, etc. as well, so I don't get your point about that. In fact, St.V ST. Mary feel the need to have student alcohol guards in place @ their stadium.
We could debate the tax side all day long BUT I do support the portion that is basically assigned to my kids following my kids to the school of their choice. It already happens with OE. And its not enough to cover a full tuition anyway.

The point isn't whether Catholic kids sell drugs, rob, etc. The point is that being part of a high school sports team for many, helps keep them out of trouble. It applies to both public and private schools. But if you limit them from participating in high school sports or other activities because they transferred they will likely find something to do with their idle time. SOMETIMES that idle time is filled doing not so good things. You clearly took it too personal.
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  #36  
Old 03-28-17, 12:33 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by BulldogBob View Post
You rather obviously needed to attend a school where comprehension is valued rather more than recruiting.
Although I can understand why a McKinley fan would want to turn the clock back to days gone by.
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  #37  
Old 03-28-17, 01:49 PM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You're way more biased (just in the other direction) than me.

I support a families right to choose the education they want. If there is a better option out there for them and they can make it work, I have no issue with that. Really don't understand why you take exception to a person's right to choose the best educational system for them.
Yep, they chose their schools because of the education.
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  #38  
Old 03-28-17, 02:51 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Yep, they chose their schools because of the education.
I am not denying anything. You're just assuming that anyone transfers high schools do it just for sports. Some do for sure. Most don't.
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  #39  
Old 03-28-17, 04:10 PM
Champ Kind Champ Kind is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Usually if the school district isn't that good, the neighborhoods aren't that good either. So you still want your family to live in the better city with the better neighborhoods. And everyone knows that the better district will help your property values over time.

But regardless....families that send their kids to private schools are paying property taxes (directly or indirectly) AND tuition. Furthermore....we usually vote YES for the local district tax levies even though for many of us....we won't use a single service from that district...ever.
You probably will. Private schools get public funding for counseling, special education, etc. The public school also provides transportation for private schools located within 30 minutes of the district.
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  #40  
Old 03-28-17, 04:14 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Champ Kind View Post
You probably will. Private schools get public funding for counseling, special education, etc. The public school also provides transportation for private schools located within 30 minutes of the district.
Our private school has their own buses but other districts do bus kids in. I am guessing the other funding is from the state and not the local district. Not sure.

We do have a DARE program. Does that count?
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  #41  
Old 03-28-17, 05:13 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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People outside the private school circle have such a clouded view of what actually goes on. You guys make it sound like these high school coaches are just chasing junior high and middle school kids all around offering a free education in return for their athletic prowess. That's ok because I used to think the same way when I attended Euclid High School and we got drilled yearly by St. Joe's in everything except baseball and track. Then my son attended VASJ and I saw the inner workings. Now this might not be true at all Catholic schools and I'm sure there is some shady stuff that does go on - there is shady stuff going on at several public schools as well.

I will focus on basketball because that is what I have seen first hand, but it happens at St.Paris and Ed's in wrestling, St.X and Hawken in swimming and many other powerhouse programs is all sports state wide regardless of division or gender. Once you establish a successful program kids want to be a part of it - period. The programs recruit themselves. You have parents who in many cases feel their child is to good to play for the local team that is not very good and rather have him or her play in a more well known tradition rich program that gives their child the best chance to succeed. Sure in many cases (like ours) education was huge. We had no idea our son would grow 5inches and even make the basketball team when he enrolled as a 9th grader. We did know he would get an outstanding education that would continue on where his Catholic grade school education left off. My option was real easy - VASJ or Euclid. If it was all about sports my son would have played varsity 3 years at Euclid and played a hell of a lot more minutes.

When your talking about VASJ the other options education and sports wise are Richmond Heights, Euclid, Cleveland Public or Wickliffe. If you had a talented kid and you wanted a better future or education for your child - what would you do. When VASJ has a open house many of the best players in the area show up wanting to know what aid is available and if they can afford to attend the school. Sure some of the kids have dreams of being the next Viking great on the court, some kids are there because they have parents who think their kids will be Viking great and they live vicariously through their kids and believe it or not many are there for the TOTAL package of education and sports. VASJ is very selective as well and turns down roughly 20% of its applicants. Prior to doing so VASJ was a sinking ship that took in any kid with a pulse and it sent many quality neighborhood kids to Iggy, Lake Catholic, Ed's and Benny. The last 5 or 6 years VASJ has grown every year because they only accept kids that fit the educational and behavior template they have established. Because of this many of the longtime alumni that stayed away because of the direction the school was taking have returned. The yearly fund raiser now brings in between $250,000 and $400,000 yearly to aid families in need to provide a quality education for their child. The money does not all go to athletes like many of you think. You have to see some of the surrounding neighborhoods and areas to truely understand.

A few years ago VJ King was leaving SVSM and his Father was shopping his kid around to the best programs. He came to VASJ and Ed's with demands about cost of schooling and playing time (shots) - both said no thanks, and he was one of the best players in Ohio. There is a reason why VASJ does not take in transfers and if they do it's extremely rare (usually a moving from out of town situation) - because they are loyal to their own. We lost the #1 WR in Ohio and a hell of a basketball player Jaylen Harris over playing time as a Freshman. He did not play enough on a loaded team with 4 D1 kids as a Freshman. He was lucky to even be on the varsity roster. So please don't paint VASJ with the same broad brush you do with some of the very large powerful Catholic schools in Cleveland and Cincinnati because that is just not how they do things. I hope this helps you understand a bit more about our school and the kids that attend.
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  #42  
Old 03-28-17, 06:35 PM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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Very well said Bball216

The only privates in the greater Cleveland area that draw from 5 counties are Ed's & Iggy. VASJ,Benedictine,CCC all have their general ares they draw from.VASJ took a beating due to urban sprawl,and losing kids to Lake Catholic from eastern Cuyahoga,western lake county.Remember Delvon Roe ? Lived around 250th st. in Euclid.Went to St. Eds and Michigan State for basketball.We lost Jaylyn Harris,Malike Smith,Brother Tyreke Smith,and Devin Carter.This school draws from a much smaller geographic area than people realize. But after 7 championships I wish we were the premiere destination for Basketball.I would love to win championships in div 2 and div 1.Oh yea we did that already.

Last edited by James x2; 03-28-17 at 07:06 PM. Reason: correction
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  #43  
Old 03-29-17, 08:16 AM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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Nice write Bball216.
I did have to chuckle at your inclusion of St. Paris, a town of 2,000 people that is the home to Graham High School, a rural public high school. An anomaly that hinders everyone's argument. A powerhouse in wrestling that even won a state championship in basketball in the past 10 years and while, yes, they open-enroll, there aren't exactly housing developments to move into, and the school is 30 miles from the metropolises of Piqua and Troy.
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  #44  
Old 03-29-17, 10:26 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
People outside the private school circle have such a clouded view of what actually goes on..

Just because someone picks a side or a preference, doesn't mean they are outside the circle. Educators and coaches and parents often have experience with both, right?
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  #45  
Old 03-29-17, 10:41 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by IcyCoolDevil View Post
Nice write Bball216.
I did have to chuckle at your inclusion of St. Paris, a town of 2,000 people that is the home to Graham High School, a rural public high school. An anomaly that hinders everyone's argument. A powerhouse in wrestling that even won a state championship in basketball in the past 10 years and while, yes, they open-enroll, there aren't exactly housing developments to move into, and the school is 30 miles from the metropolises of Piqua and Troy.
Do you think he realized that it is a public school or did he assume the "Saint" in the name meant private Catholic?

Not the first time someone has assumed wrongly.
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  #46  
Old 03-29-17, 12:54 PM
BulldogBob BulldogBob is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Exactly. posters that try to say that the majority of players from LE, VASJ, and ST.V went there for academics are simply full of sht.
Very true and quite obvious, too.
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  #47  
Old 03-29-17, 02:19 PM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You're just assuming that anyone transfers high schools do it just for sports. Some do for sure. Most don't.
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  #48  
Old 03-29-17, 02:35 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Do you think he realized that it is a public school or did he assume the "Saint" in the name meant private Catholic?

Not the first time someone has assumed wrongly.
Yes I know it's a public school but Jordan has built that program into a monster and kids will enroll there just to be part of that program because it helps in reaching the next level.
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  #49  
Old 03-29-17, 02:53 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Hundreds, if not thousands of kids move and change schools each year for a variety of reasons...mostly due to a parent's job. A significant number don't even play sports.

Do you people get this assclenched when the clarinet player's dad takes a job in a different city and he changes schools?
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  #50  
Old 03-29-17, 07:53 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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Mug, a salute Don Regerrio!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
It's accurate. We paid $3000 per year on real estate taxes AND $7000 (after school aid for being an alumni, multi student, and working events) per year PER CHILD for high school alone. This doesn't count parochial grade school. Since our children were close in age, there was $14K per year going out PLUS $3000 for taxes.
Some parents spent their money on the most important things in life! You have for sure!
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  #51  
Old 03-29-17, 08:36 PM
Curious One Curious One is offline
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There was a middle school game back in February that featured one of, if not the best 8th grader in NE Ohio. The game was played in Lorain and began at 5:30. In an ironic twist, while the teams were warming up, Dru Joyce and his entire coaching staff walked into the gym. I'm sure it was a coincidence that they ended practice early and drove 90 minutes on a Wednesday to see 2 8th grade teams play!
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  #52  
Old 03-29-17, 11:47 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by Curious One View Post
There was a middle school game back in February that featured one of, if not the best 8th grader in NE Ohio. The game was played in Lorain and began at 5:30. In an ironic twist, while the teams were warming up, Dru Joyce and his entire coaching staff walked into the gym. I'm sure it was a coincidence that they ended practice early and drove 90 minutes on a Wednesday to see 2 8th grade teams play!
I have been at CYO and Public school middle school games where the Public school varsity coaches did the same. The Public School coaches are starting to figure out they can't take kids and parents for granted. If you treat families as potential customers they will respond.
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  #53  
Old 03-30-17, 10:57 AM
BulldogBob BulldogBob is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Yep, they chose their schools because of the education.
You keep poking holes in their ridiculous assertions. I don't think they like either of us very much!
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  #54  
Old 03-30-17, 11:58 AM
Vox Crusada Vox Crusada is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Usually if the school district isn't that good, the neighborhoods aren't that good either. So you still want your family to live in the better city with the better neighborhoods. And everyone knows that the better district will help your property values over time.

But regardless....families that send their kids to private schools are paying property taxes (directly or indirectly) AND tuition. Furthermore....we usually vote YES for the local district tax levies even though for many of us....we won't use a single service from that district...ever.
I've heard this argument before, but have never seen the supporting data.
Do you know the basis for the claim that higher property taxes translate into proportionately higher resale values?
You say "everyone knows." Where did this so-called knowledge come from?
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  #55  
Old 03-30-17, 12:12 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
We could debate the tax side all day long BUT I do support the portion that is basically assigned to my kids following my kids to the school of their choice. It already happens with OE. And its not enough to cover a full tuition anyway.
What portion of your taxes is assigned to your kid? Are you being taxed per kid? My neighbor has 3 kids and I have none but I pay more taxes so I guess I need to get this figured out.
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  #56  
Old 03-30-17, 01:10 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
What portion of your taxes is assigned to your kid? Are you being taxed per kid? My neighbor has 3 kids and I have none but I pay more taxes so I guess I need to get this figured out.
It's a fixed amount that follow children when they open enroll to a different public school other than their home district. It comes from the state and is around $5000 per student.

Obviously you don't pay that amount directly each year in property taxes as those taxes are divided up for a variety of purposes.

But you can look up how it works, the actual amount the receiving district gets, etc.
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  #57  
Old 03-30-17, 01:16 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Vox Crusada View Post
I've heard this argument before, but have never seen the supporting data.
Do you know the basis for the claim that higher property taxes translate into proportionately higher resale values?
You say "everyone knows." Where did this so-called knowledge come from?
You need to re-read what I said. I said better schools improve property values. It's one of the factors that come into play when buying a home. Better schools can make 1 city more desirable over another.
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  #58  
Old 03-30-17, 01:19 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by BulldogBob View Post
You keep poking holes in their ridiculous assertions. I don't think they like either of us very much!
I like everyone. I find your assumptions that every student that transfers do it strictly for sports and receive free rides at private schools pretty ridiculous however.
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  #59  
Old 03-30-17, 05:26 PM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
People outside the private school circle have such a clouded view of what actually goes on. You guys make it sound like these high school coaches are just chasing junior high and middle school kids all around offering a free education in return for their athletic prowess. That's ok because I used to think the same way when I attended Euclid High School and we got drilled yearly by St. Joe's in everything except baseball and track. Then my son attended VASJ and I saw the inner workings. Now this might not be true at all Catholic schools and I'm sure there is some shady stuff that does go on - there is shady stuff going on at several public schools as well.

I will focus on basketball because that is what I have seen first hand, but it happens at St.Paris and Ed's in wrestling, St.X and Hawken in swimming and many other powerhouse programs is all sports state wide regardless of division or gender. Once you establish a successful program kids want to be a part of it - period. The programs recruit themselves. You have parents who in many cases feel their child is to good to play for the local team that is not very good and rather have him or her play in a more well known tradition rich program that gives their child the best chance to succeed. Sure in many cases (like ours) education was huge. We had no idea our son would grow 5inches and even make the basketball team when he enrolled as a 9th grader. We did know he would get an outstanding education that would continue on where his Catholic grade school education left off. My option was real easy - VASJ or Euclid. If it was all about sports my son would have played varsity 3 years at Euclid and played a hell of a lot more minutes.

When your talking about VASJ the other options education and sports wise are Richmond Heights, Euclid, Cleveland Public or Wickliffe. If you had a talented kid and you wanted a better future or education for your child - what would you do. When VASJ has a open house many of the best players in the area show up wanting to know what aid is available and if they can afford to attend the school. Sure some of the kids have dreams of being the next Viking great on the court, some kids are there because they have parents who think their kids will be Viking great and they live vicariously through their kids and believe it or not many are there for the TOTAL package of education and sports. VASJ is very selective as well and turns down roughly 20% of its applicants. Prior to doing so VASJ was a sinking ship that took in any kid with a pulse and it sent many quality neighborhood kids to Iggy, Lake Catholic, Ed's and Benny. The last 5 or 6 years VASJ has grown every year because they only accept kids that fit the educational and behavior template they have established. Because of this many of the longtime alumni that stayed away because of the direction the school was taking have returned. The yearly fund raiser now brings in between $250,000 and $400,000 yearly to aid families in need to provide a quality education for their child. The money does not all go to athletes like many of you think. You have to see some of the surrounding neighborhoods and areas to truely understand.

A few years ago VJ King was leaving SVSM and his Father was shopping his kid around to the best programs. He came to VASJ and Ed's with demands about cost of schooling and playing time (shots) - both said no thanks, and he was one of the best players in Ohio. There is a reason why VASJ does not take in transfers and if they do it's extremely rare (usually a moving from out of town situation) - because they are loyal to their own. We lost the #1 WR in Ohio and a hell of a basketball player Jaylen Harris over playing time as a Freshman. He did not play enough on a loaded team with 4 D1 kids as a Freshman. He was lucky to even be on the varsity roster. So please don't paint VASJ with the same broad brush you do with some of the very large powerful Catholic schools in Cleveland and Cincinnati because that is just not how they do things. I hope this helps you understand a bit more about our school and the kids that attend.
I love this post because it comes from a place of experience, I believe your points are valid, and it is well stated. It is a defense of Catholic schools to people who are (or are being perceived to be) hostile to Catholic schools.

I'm an advocate of parental/school choice, i.e., you live in a certain area, and you have public and private options to educate your child. There are pros and cons to each choice. If you have a kid who likes to play a particular sport, especially if they have some talent that could be leveraged to help get them a higher education, then there is nothing wrong with that being a or THE factor. Regardless, a private education tends to be a superior education, and if that is the choice one makes, then I'm standing up and applauding them. I honestly don't get the criticism.

Here's the thing though - none of that does, or should, have anything to do with the competitive balance discussion.

I agree with the idea that success recruits itself, but there is more to it than that. If you live in Wayne, Holmes, southern Stark, eastern Tuscarawas or northern Coshocton Counties, and you have a boy or girl that is good at basketball, or a baseball player, no one offers a better deal than Berlin Hiland in combining facilities and coaches in those sports, education, and community support, and they are a limited open enrollment public school. They get open enrollment kids from adjacent districts and almost none of those have anything to do with athletics. Almost all of those are parents who think the education and environment is better, so they enroll them at some point in grade school, and since there are a limited number of those spots, they hang on to them. A few of those kids do play sports, but they are typically not the kind of athletes that create a competitive balance problem.

Hiland averages about 1-2 high profile transfers every decade in boys and girls hoops combined. I'm not aware of any in baseball. It's an amazingly low number given the success those 3 programs have had. The reason is because of where it is located. It's not an easy place to move to due to scarcity and cost of housing, its very different culture, and its distance from where parents of potential transfers work. Those barriers prevent their success from "recruiting" talent there. However, if you take the entire education and sports infrastructure and place it in or near any major urban area, parents of talented hoops and baseball players would be beating their doors down to get their kid in there.

And that is what creates competitive imbalance. Private schools recruit students to financially survive as institutions. Recruiting athletes is easily rolled into recruiting students, and there's nothing wrong with that. Urban privates have more potential students AND more potential athletes than rural publics or privates. That's just a population density function of being urban or rural. Ironton St Joe's isn't causing competitive balance problems, for example, and wouldn't, unless the top 5 players from the tri-state area all enrolled there together. Urban public magnet schools offer kids some unique educational opportunities they wouldn't otherwise be able to have. Rolled into that is the ability to draw some really fine athletes from a large pool of them. So here we have our Africentrics. And then you can take private education to a whole other level in the form of elite prep schools who recruit students and athletes from wealthy families who have the means to send their kids there from virtually anywhere in the US or the world. And in this way we have our Hathaway Browns.

So, it is the urban privates and magnets that cause this problem OR a public school that finds a way to draw athletes in from a large pool of talent. Or you can have an urban or rural, private or public school in the lower division that has a naturally derived very talented team ("since the 3rd grade" thing), but get just one or two additions that make them a competitive balance problem.

But I guess my main point is that recruiting talent ("recruiting" is a loaded word) or acquiring/drawing talent is a completely different game in the context of public vs. private/magnet and rural vs. urban. Our system right now fails to recognize the differences in how teams are comprised, treats them like they are equal by making them compete against each other, and the result most often is that the schools with that advantage leverage it against those who don't.

So, I love our LE's, VASJ's, SVSM's, Africentrics, and Hathaway Browns. I love to watch those teams play because they are almost always very, very talented squads that play the sport at a very high level. It would be a sad day if we ever lost them. I just want them to compete for state championships against teams that are either comprised the way they are, or against those with a similar talent level. That's it and that's all.
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Old 03-30-17, 05:53 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Very well said. You can move a team like VASJ up a division, but another team public or private will take its place. You cannot separate the urban from the rural and that is always going to be an issue. The urban kids who play hoops all year round and play the AAU circuit are always going to have the advantage over the rural team that is comprised in many cases by kids who play multiple sports and only concentrate on basketball in the Winter.

VASJ only has 155 boys so they cannot expect to have to compete with schools like Ed's or Iggy that are honestly 10x their size. Mind you boys basketball, girls volleyball and track are really the only programs competitive. Football is hit or miss and the rest of the sports struggle pretty badly. You cannot penalize all the sports teams because the school happens to have developed an elite level boys basketball program. We had a very competitive girls team the last few years. They got to state twice and lost in the semis both times. They got bumped up a division and were nowhere near as competitive.

I do not believe in punishing a team for being great either. I think part of the problem is that these rural teams think they are better then they are. The AP ranks these teams high and the kids and parents think this is the year we win it all and it creates a false sense of accomplishment. Then they play a urban team or a team like VASJ that is ranked in the bottom of the state and they are stunned. The truth is they were not as good as people led them to believe they were. It's like a boxer who makes his way to the top knocking out bums, then fights a real fighter and gets his head kicked it. We played Garretsville Garfield in the regional semi in Canton. They were feeling pretty good about themselves after knocking off the AP darlings LeBrae. They NEVER expected to get 40 balled by Joe's and actually have their starters outplayed by the VASJ JV squad in the 4th quarter.

The point I guess I'm trying to make is unless you add more divisions the rural teams are always going to be at a distinct disadvantage to the rural or inner city teams - especially ones with open enrollment. Every year in our district there is one or two public teams that if they could only get by VASJ - watch out. You can bump SVSM to D1 and who would take their place in D2 - VASJ. Where is the benefit. Remove Joe's from D3 and get Lutheran East up from D4. The rural schools just have the decked stacked against them weather its the urban privates or public. The best team in some of those schools history unfortunately is just a mediocre team to many of the urban schools. It stinks but it's true.
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