Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Basketball

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-27-17, 10:23 AM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 04-06-06
Location: Lurking around
Posts: 1,215
Bo Kimble is on a distinguished road
Can it Please Stop?

When comparing two teams and their path to a title, it's become commonplace to say that 1 team has a drawing pool from 1 Million people, and the other has a few thousand. While this argument advances your agenda, it's not even close to accurate. VASJ has been credited with having "A Million people to draw from" when that number is based off of raw population data, when the fact is that many people aren't in any way going to help the program advance due to age, life situation, and even whether or not they have children. That is redundant and not even close to true.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 03-27-17, 10:39 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-10-16
Posts: 125
22 Acacia Ave is on a distinguished road
Go to bed, Bo Kimble!

You are biased and have the agenda. Your private schools are going to continue to dominate, even with competitive balance. ENjoy it!

But don't come on here and tell us not to discredit the advantages! Quit whining!!

A public school winning a title is a much much better accomplishment than the 5 county all-star teams!!! FACT
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-27-17, 10:59 AM
The Dock The Dock is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 12-05-10
Location: Satriale's Pork Store
Posts: 991
The Dock is on a distinguished road
Yeah, the rhetoric employs [large number here] as a representation of the student pool when it truly is a representation of the volume of people living in the area.

It doesn't take into consideration age, socioeconomics, whether or not there are kids are in a household (and if so, how many,) whether or not the parents are interested in sending the kids to the school and have the means to do so, etc - all of which are entirely relevant dynamics when it comes the number of students enrolled into a particular private school.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-27-17, 11:10 AM
FootsWalker FootsWalker is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 02-02-07
Posts: 1,480
FootsWalker is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dock View Post
Yeah, the rhetoric employs [large number here] as a representation of the student pool when it truly is a representation of the volume of people living in the area.

It doesn't take into consideration age, socioeconomics, whether or not there are kids are in a household (and if so, how many,) whether or not the parents are interested in sending the kids to the school and have the means to do so, etc - all of which are entirely relevant dynamics when it comes the number of students enrolled into a particular private school.
The same could be said for the other side of the argument, that "they are pulling from a town of 4000"; as obviously all of those folks aren't of HS age either.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-27-17, 11:13 AM
COACH_XYZ&12345 COACH_XYZ&12345 is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 01-23-15
Location: Ville
Posts: 648
COACH_XYZ&12345 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
When comparing two teams and their path to a title, it's become commonplace to say that 1 team has a drawing pool from 1 Million people, and the other has a few thousand. While this argument advances your agenda, it's not even close to accurate. VASJ has been credited with having "A Million people to draw from" when that number is based off of raw population data, when the fact is that many people aren't in any way going to help the program advance due to age, life situation, and even whether or not they have children. That is redundant and not even close to true.
Take your rhetoric garbage to the trash can where it belongs...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-27-17, 11:29 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 11-18-16
Posts: 155
IVCguy is on a distinguished road
There are all kinds of factors that go into this, but the main factor is 6'6-10" and athletic > 5'9"-6'3" and less athletic. That one factor trumps all the others when it comes to playing a basketball game. There are certain types of schools in certain locations that have more of the bigger, better athletes and by virtue of their nature and location can attract that talent. It is not arguable, and it takes an incredible amount of sophistry to deny it. It's on the level of denying gravity.

But I don't think the solution is to hate on those schools. Let LE, VASJ, SVSM, et.al compete with Moeller and Jackson for a championship. It would be fantastic competition and this discussion would go away.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-27-17, 11:44 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-10-16
Posts: 125
22 Acacia Ave is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
There are all kinds of factors that go into this, but the main factor is 6'6-10" and athletic > 5'9"-6'3" and less athletic. That one factor trumps all the others when it comes to playing a basketball game. There are certain types of schools in certain locations that have more of the bigger, better athletes and by virtue of their nature and location can attract that talent. It is not arguable, and it takes an incredible amount of sophistry to deny it. It's on the level of denying gravity.

But I don't think the solution is to hate on those schools. Let LE, VASJ, SVSM, et.al compete with Moeller and Jackson for a championship. It would be fantastic competition and this discussion would go away.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-27-17, 11:53 AM
The Dock The Dock is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 12-05-10
Location: Satriale's Pork Store
Posts: 991
The Dock is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by FootsWalker View Post
The same could be said for the other side of the argument, that "they are pulling from a town of 4000"; as obviously all of those folks aren't of HS age either.
Sure. But most people on the privates' side of the issue aren't arguing that since we know that doesn't mean a school has the pick of 4,000 kids.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-27-17, 12:05 PM
El Indio El Indio is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 06-04-09
Posts: 2,034
El Indio is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
When comparing two teams and their path to a title, it's become commonplace to say that 1 team has a drawing pool from 1 Million people, and the other has a few thousand. While this argument advances your agenda, it's not even close to accurate. VASJ has been credited with having "A Million people to draw from" when that number is based off of raw population data, when the fact is that many people aren't in any way going to help the program advance due to age, life situation, and even whether or not they have children. That is redundant and not even close to true.
This reminds me of a line in a great movie. "Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-27-17, 12:13 PM
El Indio El Indio is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 06-04-09
Posts: 2,034
El Indio is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dock View Post
Yeah, the rhetoric employs [large number here] as a representation of the student pool when it truly is a representation of the volume of people living in the area.

It doesn't take into consideration age, socioeconomics, whether or not there are kids are in a household (and if so, how many,) whether or not the parents are interested in sending the kids to the school and have the means to do so, etc - all of which are entirely relevant dynamics when it comes the number of students enrolled into a particular private school.
They will be when approached and say you can go to (insert private school here) for free and we have a shot at state. Don't worry about paying, we have plenty of donors to pay for your kids education.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-27-17, 09:19 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,249
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
So many of you assume you know how private schools operate and yet you have no clue. Kids are not going to VASJ for free - period. Bragg, Pardon, Parker, etc all paid to attend Joe's. You people are comical when you say these kids attend school for free or come from 5 counties. If your going to talk crap about a school - do some research. Don't assume all Catholic schools are the same and don't assume all Catholic schools draw from the same geographic radius.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-27-17, 09:56 PM
beaker beaker is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-26-13
Location: Trumbull County
Posts: 508
beaker is on a distinguished road
Akron STVM has 6 basketball championships since 2000. 6 in 17 years!!! A public school has athletes that can win basketball championship once in a lifetime. And most public schools never. The odds for smaller public schools winning championship go down even more this day and age. It's obvious...private schools have an advantage. It's not the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's anymore. Private schools will win more state titles going forward than public schools. Nothing is gonna change just embrace the reality.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-27-17, 09:58 PM
jackson03 jackson03 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 09-03-13
Posts: 1,377
jackson03 is on a distinguished road
What does tuition have to do with any of this? Some kids attending Catholic schools pay tuition, some go on scholarships. Some parents at Jackson are paying massive property tax bills because of Ohio's wonky education system, some are renters and pay none or only pay indirectly.

The 1 million vs. 4,000 or 40,000 is just to talk trash, sure. It's not a direct comparison. But private school DO assemble their teams by choice and from a large geographic pool, public schools have to work with what they've got. If you're a Jackson or McKinley that's fine because you're going through the youth system and have a huge student body. If you're a small D2/D3 public trying to beat St. V or VASJ... well...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-27-17, 10:44 PM
buckeye53 buckeye53 is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 09-30-14
Location: The Sierra Nevada, NorCal
Posts: 387
buckeye53 is on a distinguished road
I was born in the 50's, in NEO. I attended both public and Catholic grade and high schools. Back then, teachers still had control of the classroom, at both. Parents sent their kids to private schools, primarily for the religious atmosphere. It seemed back then, there was a pretty even playing field, even though the privates were drawing from the whole county. There were powerhouse programs from both systems,(Massillon, McKinley, Harding, Niles)-( Moeller, Iggy, Mooney). Today, at many public schools, class rooms are bedlam, budgets broken, and school boards sitting on their hands, for fear of litigation. With the loss of jobs, the big city schools have shrunk or closed. I think this environment has brought about the flight to private schools. Some have gotten much larger, and there seems to be a lot more of them. Competitive Ballance may help, but the field is skewed, and it will continue to be.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-27-17, 10:57 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is online now
All American
 
Join Date: 04-12-15
Location: Athens
Posts: 1,303
Raider6309 is on a distinguished road
This site should be fun when Lebron's kid is in high school at SVSM. I'm sure they already have that Midwest all star team assembled or at least try outs soon
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-27-17, 11:09 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-25-10
Posts: 637
MugnMaul78 is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackson03 View Post
What does tuition have to do with any of this? Some kids attending Catholic schools pay tuition, some go on scholarships. Some parents at Jackson are paying massive property tax bills because of Ohio's wonky education system, some are renters and pay none or only pay indirectly.

The 1 million vs. 4,000 or 40,000 is just to talk trash, sure. It's not a direct comparison. But private school DO assemble their teams by choice and from a large geographic pool, public schools have to work with what they've got. If you're a Jackson or McKinley that's fine because you're going through the youth system and have a huge student body. If you're a small D2/D3 public trying to beat St. V or VASJ... well...
I agree real estate taxes are out of control. Private school parents pay the real estate tax bill (often for a failing school district) AND tuition.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-28-17, 12:35 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
Go Buckeyes
 
Join Date: 04-15-01
Location: Ohio
Posts: 46,064
Yappi will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
I agree real estate taxes are out of control. Private school parents pay the real estate tax bill (often for a failing school district) AND tuition.
That would be very interesting to find out how accurate your statement is. I've always believed that people will pay extra for a house to live in a district with a good school system. If you are not worried about the quality of the public school system that you reside in because you are sending your kids to a private school, it increases the number of houses that you can choose from.

As an example, you want your kid to go to an upper middle class closed-enrollment public high school, it might cost $250,000 for a 2500sq.ft. home. You are also paying $5000 per year in real estate taxes. Now if there is an equally nice upper middle class private high school in the same district, you have a much larger choice of houses to live in to send your kid to that school. Maybe you live in the next town over that has a much poorer school district. In this district, you can buy that same 2500sq.ft. house for $150,000 and pay only $3000 in real estate taxes.

I know that it is mentioned on here frequently that private school parents sacrifice to get their kids into a private school but I think there are just as many public school parents that do the same thing, just in a different way. I know that I am.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-28-17, 02:41 AM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 07-26-16
Location: West of Marion, Ohio
Posts: 286
USA70PP is on a distinguished road
And then you have "seasoned" people, with no children in school paying property taxes on a 350Kplus home. At the same time we have grandchildren in a neighboring county and a great grandchild in a third school district, But really, what's the big deal? The wife and I live where we want to, the children and grandchild where they want to and I would say all of us are happy with the situation.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-28-17, 08:04 AM
Basketball123! Basketball123! is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 03-27-17
Posts: 2
Basketball123! is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Indio View Post
They will be when approached and say you can go to (insert private school here) for free and we have a shot at state. Don't worry about paying, we have plenty of donors to pay for your kids education.
Public Kids go for FREE! If a parent makes $300K in Jackson, he pays $0 to attend. If a kid's Dad living in Cleveland or Akron makes $30K and pays $2500 to go to Joe's or St. V or anywhere else, they're paying $2500 more and 10% of their income.

All you public school blowhards don't want to see talented low income kids get the same opportunities just because they can't move into a Mentor or Jackson.

I make Money, my kid goes private, he starts, I pay $12k-$15k and I could care less if someone is going for less. The more the competition for my son the better!

They don't go for free Mr. Know-It-All!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-28-17, 08:16 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 11-17-14
Posts: 1,499
Irish60 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaker View Post
Akron STVM has 6 basketball championships since 2000. 6 in 17 years!!! A public school has athletes that can win basketball championship once in a lifetime. And most public schools never. The odds for smaller public schools winning championship go down even more this day and age. It's obvious...private schools have an advantage. It's not the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or 90's anymore. Private schools will win more state titles going forward than public schools. Nothing is gonna change just embrace the reality.
I agree there is an advantage to private schools. But don't tell Dunbar and Jackson that state championships are once in a lifetime opportunities.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-28-17, 08:30 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 7,439
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
That would be very interesting to find out how accurate your statement is. I've always believed that people will pay extra for a house to live in a district with a good school system. If you are not worried about the quality of the public school system that you reside in because you are sending your kids to a private school, it increases the number of houses that you can choose from.

As an example, you want your kid to go to an upper middle class closed-enrollment public high school, it might cost $250,000 for a 2500sq.ft. home. You are also paying $5000 per year in real estate taxes. Now if there is an equally nice upper middle class private high school in the same district, you have a much larger choice of houses to live in to send your kid to that school. Maybe you live in the next town over that has a much poorer school district. In this district, you can buy that same 2500sq.ft. house for $150,000 and pay only $3000 in real estate taxes.

I know that it is mentioned on here frequently that private school parents sacrifice to get their kids into a private school but I think there are just as many public school parents that do the same thing, just in a different way. I know that I am.
Usually if the school district isn't that good, the neighborhoods aren't that good either. So you still want your family to live in the better city with the better neighborhoods. And everyone knows that the better district will help your property values over time.

But regardless....families that send their kids to private schools are paying property taxes (directly or indirectly) AND tuition. Furthermore....we usually vote YES for the local district tax levies even though for many of us....we won't use a single service from that district...ever.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-28-17, 08:32 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 7,439
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
I agree there is an advantage to private schools. But don't tell Dunbar and Jackson that state championships are once in a lifetime opportunities.
Or in football don't tell Marion Local or Coldwater either.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-28-17, 08:48 AM
El Indio El Indio is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 06-04-09
Posts: 2,034
El Indio is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basketball123! View Post
Public Kids go for FREE! If a parent makes $300K in Jackson, he pays $0 to attend. If a kid's Dad living in Cleveland or Akron makes $30K and pays $2500 to go to Joe's or St. V or anywhere else, they're paying $2500 more and 10% of their income.

All you public school blowhards don't want to see talented low income kids get the same opportunities just because they can't move into a Mentor or Jackson.

I make Money, my kid goes private, he starts, I pay $12k-$15k and I could care less if someone is going for less. The more the competition for my son the better!

They don't go for free Mr. Know-It-All!
That is the point. Some go for free just because they can play a sport. Don't tell me that your school has no donors. ROTFLMAO!

An I thank you for creating a id just to come on here and tell me that I'm a Know It All. That's really nice of you.

So why do low income talented kids go to private? They are the studs of their current school which hasn't had a winning season in years, but some private coach approach them with an opportunity to get a free education with a shot at state. Who could pass that up?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-28-17, 08:53 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 7,439
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Indio View Post
That is the point. Some go for free just because they can play a sport. Don't tell me that your school has no donors. ROTFLMAO!

An I thank you for creating a id just to come on here and tell me that I'm a Knot It All. That's really nice of you.

So why do low income talented kids go to private? They are the studs of their current school which hasn't had a winning season in years, but some private coach approach them with an opportunity to get a free education with a shot at state. Who could pass that up?
What is a "knot it all"? LOL.

Low income talented kids go to private probably to get out of a bad situation I am guessing. Usually low income kids live in low income neighborhoods. Schools aren't great. Not safe, etc. State vouchers probably help these kids get there more than these mysterious donors you are talking about.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-28-17, 09:34 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-25-10
Posts: 637
MugnMaul78 is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
That would be very interesting to find out how accurate your statement is. I've always believed that people will pay extra for a house to live in a district with a good school system. If you are not worried about the quality of the public school system that you reside in because you are sending your kids to a private school, it increases the number of houses that you can choose from.

As an example, you want your kid to go to an upper middle class closed-enrollment public high school, it might cost $250,000 for a 2500sq.ft. home. You are also paying $5000 per year in real estate taxes. Now if there is an equally nice upper middle class private high school in the same district, you have a much larger choice of houses to live in to send your kid to that school. Maybe you live in the next town over that has a much poorer school district. In this district, you can buy that same 2500sq.ft. house for $150,000 and pay only $3000 in real estate taxes.

I know that it is mentioned on here frequently that private school parents sacrifice to get their kids into a private school but I think there are just as many public school parents that do the same thing, just in a different way. I know that I am.
It's accurate. We paid $3000 per year on real estate taxes AND $7000 (after school aid for being an alumni, multi student, and working events) per year PER CHILD for high school alone. This doesn't count parochial grade school. Since our children were close in age, there was $14K per year going out PLUS $3000 for taxes.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-28-17, 10:19 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-10-16
Posts: 125
22 Acacia Ave is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
What is a "knot it all"? LOL.

Low income talented kids go to private probably to get out of a bad situation I am guessing. Usually low income kids live in low income neighborhoods. Schools aren't great. Not safe, etc. State vouchers probably help these kids get there more than these mysterious donors you are talking about.
Please. Now you sound like massillons head FB coach. More concerned with "saving" these poor kids than their talent? RIGHT! HAHAHA!!
You are so obviously biased, it's embarrassing.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-28-17, 10:22 AM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 10-26-03
Posts: 5,296
Mackinbiner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
That would be very interesting to find out how accurate your statement is. I've always believed that people will pay extra for a house to live in a district with a good school system. If you are not worried about the quality of the public school system that you reside in because you are sending your kids to a private school, it increases the number of houses that you can choose from.

As an example, you want your kid to go to an upper middle class closed-enrollment public high school, it might cost $250,000 for a 2500sq.ft. home. You are also paying $5000 per year in real estate taxes. Now if there is an equally nice upper middle class private high school in the same district, you have a much larger choice of houses to live in to send your kid to that school. Maybe you live in the next town over that has a much poorer school district. In this district, you can buy that same 2500sq.ft. house for $150,000 and pay only $3000 in real estate taxes.

I know that it is mentioned on here frequently that private school parents sacrifice to get their kids into a private school but I think there are just as many public school parents that do the same thing, just in a different way. I know that I am.
I am too. And the sacrifice on my part had nothing to do with sports and nearly everything to do with education. It's when people's decisions get skewed the other way that conversations like this come up.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-28-17, 10:27 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 08-25-10
Posts: 637
MugnMaul78 is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Please. Now you sound like massillons head FB coach. More concerned with "saving" these poor kids than their talent? RIGHT! HAHAHA!!
You are so obviously biased, it's embarrassing.
Since you know so much, these are just some of the kids being helped by Vouchers and the Marianist Urban Program at VASJ. In looking over this group, I don't remember any of them being basketball players, let alone star basketball players.

http://www.vasj.com/marianist-urban-students-program
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-28-17, 10:29 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 12-10-16
Posts: 125
22 Acacia Ave is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
I am too. And the sacrifice on my part had nothing to do with sports and nearly everything to do with education. It's when people's decisions get skewed the other way that conversations like this come up.
Exactly. posters that try to say that the majority of players from LE, VASJ, and ST.V went there for academics are simply full of sht.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-28-17, 11:39 AM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 10-26-03
Posts: 5,296
Mackinbiner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Since you know so much, these are just some of the kids being helped by Vouchers and the Marianist Urban Program at VASJ. In looking over this group, I don't remember any of them being basketball players, let alone star basketball players.

http://www.vasj.com/marianist-urban-students-program
That's mighty noble of VASJ to take care of the "high potential" kids. But where does that leave the majority of kids that aren't the cream of the crop? Oh yeah, the public schools will serve them.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Popstar: Never Stop Never Stopping" Yappi General Board 8 06-08-16 11:59 PM
Florida man chews skin off fingertips at Tallmadge traffic stop avoid identification Yappi General Board 1 02-26-16 11:15 PM
Celina(7-3) Vs Trotwood(7-3) R10 Round 1 Dookie Foot Football 80 11-08-15 11:46 AM
Discovery Channel Promises To Stop Lying To Us Yappi General Board 13 01-12-15 02:44 PM
At what age did you stop trick-or-treating? Yappi General Board 35 10-31-14 08:02 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:54 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz