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  #31  
Old 03-26-17, 08:34 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HardCorps View Post
Executing an offense until you get a layup or a preferred open shot is not necessarily stalling.
My response was directed at this poster's quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
The shot clock would not only add expenses to the schools in Ohio it will lead to smaller undermanned teams to get blown out even more. The saving grace right now is teams that are undermanned can spread the floor and slow the game down to a snail pace in an attempt to stay close and steal a game late. Take that away and you will see athletic teams just crushing teams.
He is clearly referring to stalling as a purposeful strategy, not to get a good shot.

Stalling is punished in many games, like wrestling. A 60 sec shot clock would prevent blatant stalling, but would provide plenty of time for a decent shot.
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  #32  
Old 03-26-17, 08:55 PM
HardCorps HardCorps is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flood View Post
My response was directed at this poster's quote:


He is clearly referring to stalling as a purposeful strategy, not to get a good shot.

Stalling is punished in many games, like wrestling. A 60 sec shot clock would prevent blatant stalling, but would provide plenty of time for a decent shot.
My bad.
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  #33  
Old 03-26-17, 09:13 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Teams purposely stall or slow the game down all the time as a strategy. Sure they still run their offenses in an attempt to score an easy basket - they just don't get into a track meet with a team they can't match up with. Teams also do it to pull teams out of a zone defense. You mean to tell me you never saw a team that played zone defense and slow the game down to a snails pace in an attempt to be competitive ?
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  #34  
Old 03-26-17, 09:19 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
You mean to tell me you never saw a team that played zone defense and slow the game down to a snails pace in an attempt to be competitive ?
Of course, but it can be taken to extremes and hurts the game, IMO. Again, a 60 sec shot clock would prevent blatant stalling, but would provide more than enough time for a decent shot. If a team cannot consistently get a decent shot off in 60 seconds, then they have no chance anyway.
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  #35  
Old 03-26-17, 09:24 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Hurts the game for who ? Less talented teams should be able to do whatever they feel they need to do to keep the game competitive.
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  #36  
Old 03-26-17, 10:41 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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The game is fine as it currently is without a shot clock. Stalling/slowing the pace is a legitimate strategy that evens the playing field for a team with an athletic and/or talent disadvantage.

Games deeper into the tournament seem to naturally be lower scoring due to teams frequently stalling late in quarters for a last shot, stalling to bait zone defenses into man, and methodically running offense until there's a layup or a wide open shot when leading. It often seems like many coaches play not to lose rather than playing to win, and they micromanage the entire game possession by possession.
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  #37  
Old 03-26-17, 11:49 PM
buckeye53 buckeye53 is offline
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A 45 second clock, allows plenty of time, to find a good shot. Most teams cross mid court in 5 seconds, that leaves 40 seconds to work the ball. I really don't think there was much stalling going on in the play-offs, as pointed out by ohiopup. If there was, then the argument of using all that time for a good shot, failed. Most of the teams shot low 30's to low 40's % on 2 point shots, and low 20's% on 3 pointers. 1 team shot 9% from 3 point land. That kind of game was fine in the 1930's, but today's athletes are bigger,faster, and the game needs to reflect that. But they do need to learn how to shoot free throws.
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  #38  
Old 03-27-17, 07:27 AM
skyvue skyvue is offline
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Just checking the OHSAA website back to 1999 and this years state title games were the lowest scoring by a mile! No other year even close. Maybe somebody can check their program and see how far back you have to look to find a year when the average state title game averaged 87.5 points per game?

A lot of you are giving good reasons why scoring is down in state title game in general (pressure, TV timeouts, coaching not to lose, etc...), however those reason exist every year. This year was an extreme outlier statistically speaking.
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  #39  
Old 03-27-17, 08:50 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyvue View Post
Just checking the OHSAA website back to 1999 and this years state title games were the lowest scoring by a mile! No other year even close. Maybe somebody can check their program and see how far back you have to look to find a year when the average state title game averaged 87.5 points per game?

A lot of you are giving good reasons why scoring is down in state title game in general (pressure, TV timeouts, coaching not to lose, etc...), however those reason exist every year. This year was an extreme outlier statistically speaking.
If this is the case (which I trust it is), then I agree with you that this year would be an anomaly rather than a trend. Let's not make drastic changes to the game based upon one year.
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  #40  
Old 03-27-17, 09:00 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Without recognizing the style of teams playing in the game, just a raw numbers diagnosis would be misleading.

Moeller is one of the slowest pace teams in the United States of America. You would need to remove their score, as it would skew everything.
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  #41  
Old 03-27-17, 09:17 AM
Tesoro Tesoro is offline
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IT went the way of crappy reffing.
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  #42  
Old 03-27-17, 10:11 AM
JU-ICE JU-ICE is offline
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A look at surrounding states championship scoring:

Michigan (4 Divisions)
Avg. 67-58 total: 125

Indiana (4 Divisions)
Avg. 59-51 total: 110

Pennsylvania (6 Divisions)
Avg. 74-54 total: 129

Kentucky (1 Division)
67-56= 123
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  #43  
Old 03-27-17, 12:06 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Hurts the game for who ? Less talented teams should be able to do whatever they feel they need to do to keep the game competitive.
So would you be ok with a wrestler who sat in a ball the entire match and refused to wrestle, or just kept crawling out of bounds the entire match?
Again, if stalling is such an accepted and explicit strategy, why don't they "teach" it, like dribbling, shooting and passing?
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  #44  
Old 03-27-17, 12:50 PM
Hayden Fox Hayden Fox is offline
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What happened to offense, shooting and scoring?

For those on here arguing against implementing a shot clock in High School basketball I'm sure you are also for eliminating the play clock in High School football. This is an added expense that High Schools have to deal with and it really allows the more talented football teams to dominate the less athletic smaller schools
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  #45  
Old 03-27-17, 12:58 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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Originally Posted by Hayden Fox View Post
For those on here arguing against implementing a shot clock in High School basketball I'm sure you are also for eliminating the play clock in High School football. This is an added expense that High Schools have to deal with and it really allows the more talented football teams to dominate the less athletic smaller schools
Exactly. Just silly.
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  #46  
Old 03-27-17, 05:21 PM
buckeye53 buckeye53 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flood View Post
Exactly. Just silly.
Right On !
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  #47  
Old 03-27-17, 05:28 PM
kingpin2010 kingpin2010 is offline
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Every higher form of basketball has a shot clock for a reason, to promote actual basketball being played, not stalling. If you can't get a good look in 40 seconds then that's on you and the D should be rewarded for playing a great possession. You can still play slow, eat up clock and shorten a game/possessions up as shown by NBA teams doing it with a 24 second clock.
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  #48  
Old 03-27-17, 07:59 PM
Yellow_Jacket06 Yellow_Jacket06 is offline
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The NBA game is horrendous to watch and shouldn't be used as a baseline comparison for the 'purity' of basketball.

I still say no to a shot clock. Some of the logic on here for implementing it is comical. Comparing it to wrestling? Play clock in football? Good grief. I say that as a fan of a uptempo team who has been beaten by stall teams. It's frustrating to watch but it can be an effective strategy. Defenses don't need to be rewarded. A good pressure defense can force the slow teams to move the ball faster than they want to and thus force some turnovers.
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  #49  
Old 03-27-17, 08:08 PM
kingpin2010 kingpin2010 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow_Jacket06 View Post
The NBA game is horrendous to watch and shouldn't be used as a baseline comparison for the 'purity' of basketball.
That wasn't the point. The point was you could still play slow, like the jazz do who average 10 less possessions a game than a team like the rockets using a 24 second clock. But that couldn't be further from the truth, the fluidity of the NBA game due to the 24 second clock makes it so much better to watch. I use to have that line of thinking, until I actually started to really understand the NBA game, now it's painful to sit and watch these college games except the last 5 minutes. But I guess the "purity" of basketball is passing the ball around for 2 minutes stalling.
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  #50  
Old 03-27-17, 08:31 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flood View Post
Of course, but it can be taken to extremes and hurts the game, IMO. Again, a 60 sec shot clock would prevent blatant stalling, but would provide more than enough time for a decent shot. If a team cannot consistently get a decent shot off in 60 seconds, then they have no chance anyway.
If they have no chance anyway, then the other team should love the tactic.

It's the other team's job to get the ball away, not beg the refs to do it for them. If they're too slow to get it themselves, then they have no chance anyway.

IMO: this shot clock reasoning is reaching everyone needs a handout levels. Go out and challenge the ball. It's GREAT theatre.
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  #51  
Old 03-28-17, 09:55 AM
ctowner ctowner is offline
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Comparing a play clock in football to a shot clock in b-ball is apples to oranges. Football has always had a play clock, it just used to only be on the back judge's wrist. And schools are not required to install play clocks for football.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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  #52  
Old 03-28-17, 10:16 AM
COACH_XYZ&12345 COACH_XYZ&12345 is offline
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Excellent article and worth the read from a story written in the USA today on the subject.

http://cfoa.com/basketball/shot-clock-article.php
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  #53  
Old 03-28-17, 12:23 PM
coachted coachted is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyvue View Post
Here were the state championship scores:

D1 - 39-38 = 77
D2 - 45-30 = 75
D3 - 54-52 = 106
D4 - 43-38 = 81

If you average those four games, it 84.75 point per game. I wonder how far back you have to go to find a tournament when the title games were this low scoring overall? I am guessing you may need to go back to the 50's?

To me, as a neutral observer, this was one of the ugliest set of title games I can remember seeing. All the games were close, which meant there was suspense and drama, but that does not mean they were well played. I was shocked and disappointed in particular in the quality of shooting and offensive skills I saw.
The teams in the Finals were probably some of the best defensive teams in the state...no doubt. The style of offense the teams run also played a role in keeping the scores low. But so did the lack of skills that Ohio players have.The popularity of football and baseball take away from the level of play in Ohio . Ohio basketball is way behind Indiana and Kentucky basketball. it isn't even close. ]Most Ohio players do not put in the extra work and time to hone their skills,
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  #54  
Old 03-28-17, 12:29 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachted View Post
The teams in the Finals were probably some of the best defensive teams in the state...no doubt. The style of offense the teams run also played a role in keeping the scores low. But so did the lack of skills that Ohio players have.The popularity of football and baseball take away from the level of play in Ohio . Ohio basketball is way behind Indiana and Kentucky basketball. it isn't even close. ]Most Ohio players do not put in the extra work and time to hone their skills,
Beyond this, there is a very real chance that this year was an anomaly as opposed to a trend. I haven't checked it out, but one poster suggested this year's scores were significantly lower than in any years past going back to peach basket days. If that is the case, then aren't we jumping the gun making broad stroke conclusions about the state of basketball in Ohio?
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  #55  
Old 03-28-17, 01:09 PM
coachted coachted is offline
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The 10 States That Produce the Best College Basketball Talent ...
bleacherreport.com/.../1751325-the-10-states-that-produce-the-best-college-basketball...
Aug 27, 2013 - Ever wonder which states produce the best college basketball players? ... The state has produced 25 players ranked in ESPN's Top 100 from ...
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  #56  
Old 03-28-17, 01:30 PM
ohiopup ohiopup is offline
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FIFY

http://www.bleacherreport.com/articl...etball-talent/

#10: Tenn
#9: Maryland
#8: NY
#7: Fla
#6: Ga
#4: (tie) Ind & Ill
#3: NC
#2: Calif
#1: Texas

Honorable mention: Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Ohio, Michigan, Virginia and Missouri.
(worth visiting because of the quality of the players each state has produced.)

:>---
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  #57  
Old 03-28-17, 01:38 PM
westa-k-ron1 westa-k-ron1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow_Jacket06 View Post
The NBA game is horrendous to watch and shouldn't be used as a baseline comparison for the 'purity' of basketball.
Nothing horrendous about the the NBA game....39-38 is horrendous.
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  #58  
Old 03-28-17, 01:50 PM
sek22 sek22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachted View Post
The teams in the Finals were probably some of the best defensive teams in the state...no doubt. The style of offense the teams run also played a role in keeping the scores low. But so did the lack of skills that Ohio players have.The popularity of football and baseball take away from the level of play in Ohio . Ohio basketball is way behind Indiana and Kentucky basketball. it isn't even close. ]Most Ohio players do not put in the extra work and time to hone their skills,
I know that this is a small sample size, but I know that both Jackson and Moeller came down here to Florida and rolled through 3 games (Jackson won by 27-47-13 pt margins) (Moeller beat eventual state champion Tampa Sickles by 18) to each to win their respective tournaments. I wouldn't think the teams they played who for the most part also traveled across the country would be bottom feeders.

Also, take a look at Jackson's points per game throughout the season. Pretty obvious the finals game was an anomaly.

Last edited by sek22; 03-28-17 at 07:43 PM.
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  #59  
Old 03-28-17, 07:07 PM
Blue Jay Fan Blue Jay Fan is offline
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FWIW: college basketball scores have been decreasing for years. They shortened the shot clock and it rose minimally due to more possessions. How the game is coached has changed.
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  #60  
Old 03-28-17, 07:24 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flood View Post
So would you be ok with a wrestler who sat in a ball the entire match and refused to wrestle, or just kept crawling out of bounds the entire match?
Again, if stalling is such an accepted and explicit strategy, why don't they "teach" it, like dribbling, shooting and passing?
Stalling in wrestling is against the rules not so in basketball.
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