Public private split

[MugnMaul78]

In the old days, there was just AAA, AA, and A, which was the best of the best, and if you won, you were the best. But if you wanted a trophy and bragging rights, you won your conference (Crown Conference, Senate Conference, etc) or city championship (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, etc) or Region championship (Summit County, etc). I miss those days.

[winbypin]

Originally Posted by J.R. Swish

Jaws....it is about a level playing field not feelings being hurt. School in town of 20,000 people plays another school in neighboring town of 20,000 people.....that is a fair fight. Now winner of that game moves onto play a private school in town of 100,000 who recruits or chooses the best players in that town of 100,000. Not a fair fight. Or maybe a better example is a private school near those two towns of 20,000 takes the best two players off each school then beats both schools in the tourney....not a fair fight. You get it Jaws???

Life isn't fair. Sports aren't fair. Sooner people realize that maybe the better off they will be?

[BulldogBob]

Originally Posted by winbypin

Life isn't fair. Sports aren't fair. Sooner people realize that maybe the better off they will be?

It's true life isn't fair. If the OHSAA decides to split into a Private and a separate Public format, would you accept this?

[winbypin]

Originally Posted by BulldogBob

It's true life isn't fair. If the OHSAA decides to split into a Private and a separate Public format, would you accept this?

I would not support this. I think it is a short-sighted decision and would only make it easier for certain public schools to dominate in their respective sports. Then you would have some privates that may drop out of OHSAA entirely. Likely just a handful but for a few, I think that is a real option. And those handful of schools would openly recruit for those best athletes as they take on more of an academy approach to everything. So if you were around those schools, it could get worse. Most privates would stay within OHSAA in whatever shape that becomes as they would see more good than bad with the new arrangement.

Would I accept it was your question? Yes. What other choice do I have and the time my own kids have to actually participate in HS sports is short. The overwhelming majority of kids won't sniff a state title no matter what rules are put in place.

What good does it do to worry about how Lutheran East built their team when your own team loses in the sectional tournament? You're not good enough to even get to out of the sectional let alone win state.

Just enjoy that little window of time when your kids can play high school sports. Everyone spends way too much time worrying about fixing the rules so everything is "fair" (and they are pretty fair already) that they miss the important part of the show.

[FootsWalker]

Originally Posted by winbypin

Life isn't fair. Sports aren't fair. Sooner people realize that maybe the better off they will be?

While the "life isn't fair" axiom gets thrown around a lot, and is sage wisdom and all, this subject isn't about "life", it's about the OHSAA. Read their mission statement, "fairness" is one of the lynch pins of their existence, and since they exist because of their membership, then it's apparent that their member schools care about it too. Thus all of these machinations over the years that resulted in the CBP over an outright split. People don't have to like how we got here, but their version of fairness is clearly different than the view from "life's" perspective. Guess we'll all have to see how this thing plays out for a few seasons before we pass judgement. I think we need to at least give it a chance.

[winbypin]

Originally Posted by FootsWalker

While the "life isn't fair" axiom gets thrown around a lot, and is sage wisdom and all, this subject isn't about "life", it's about the OHSAA. Read their mission statement, "fairness" is one of the lynch pins of their existence, and since they exist because of their membership, then it's apparent that their member schools care about it too. Thus all of these machinations over the years that resulted in the CBP over an outright split. People don't have to like how we got here, but their version of fairness is clearly different than the view from "life's" perspective. Guess we'll all have to see how this thing plays out for a few seasons before we pass judgement. I think we need to at least give it a chance.

I've already said about 10 times in the latest round of threads that we need to give CBP a chance before finding the next "solution".

High School sports aren't "fair". Some kids are bigger, stronger, and faster. Some schools have better coaching, facilities, and resources. Some teams have their best players go down to injury or bad grades. Some schools get transfers in....and some get transfers out.

OHSAA exists to make sure everyone is playing by the same set of rules and they don't favor any one group over another. That's fairness.

https://www.google.com/search?q=fair...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Fairness isn't changing the rules because one group is more successful than the other. Fairness isn't equal outcomes. It's equal opportunity.

[COACH_XYZ&12345]

I posted this on another thread in the Football forum and my opinion on the subject.

The great background in participating in sports especially high school athletics prepares you for life, where the marketplace is distinguished by winners and losers. In real life, not everyone receives a trophy. Through loss and rejection, you learn, you grow, and you develop character, perseverance, and grit. Defeat might break you down, but having the opportunity to rebuild stronger and wiser is where real victory is won. Seeing failure, rejection, loss, and unfairness as essential components of life experienced through sports is the best playing field you can be apart of. Self-worth should be measured internally, not by a score on a scoreboard, or how many trophies won. Excellence and hard work is what really matters as a true measure of success. Life doesn't give you a trophy because you showed up or even fair, you fail, but failure isn't final. I would rather beat a private school who cheats, recruits, and stacks the odds against me, than easily beating 10 schools less inferior and having no true measuring standard of how good my team really is. Because that is what life is, the journey of winners and losers.

[Look Ma No Hands]

Originally Posted by winbypin

I've already said about 10 times in the latest round of threads that we need to give CBP a chance before finding the next "solution".

Any "multiplier" would seem to help public schools in lower divisions, but it would actually make it more difficult for Division I public schools. They'd have to play more private schools who get bumped up to Div 1.

Any "multiplier" would seem to make it more difficult for smaller private schools who bump up a division, but it would only moderately affect Division I private schools. It only effects Division I schools because St Eds could have to play a St V if said St. V moves up to Div 1.

If you separate the public and private (which is the only way to have teams compete by the same rules), and private schools leave the OHSAA, then these private schools would have no OHSAA rules to violate. They could recruit out in the open instead of behind closed doors.

[Bball216]

There are a lot of mediocre to bad teams in Ohio that no matter what you do will have zero chance to win a state title. It's on those programs to improve. It's like in school do you study harder or make the test easier. If there is a split between public and private don't be surprised if the large mega powerful privates leave the OHSAA and become prep schools. They would have ZERO rules to follow and could legitimately walk right into your gym and offer your kids a free education, a national schedule and maximum exposure. It would create massive issues. People constantly complain about the lower divisions what about the poor teams that play in D1. Things are going to get even tougher on them.

[J.R. Swish]

Believe me, I am not the guy that thinks "every kid needs a trophy" but this thread is about public v. privates. I just think now more than ever the gap between the schools is bigger than ever and growing. Look specifically at D3 and D4 schools....there is no way public schools can compete with the privates. D3 and D4 schools with 3 or 4 division 1 college prospects on their squads??? Public schools NEVER have that and NEVER will. Privates are playing by different rules so they should compete against each other who use those same rules. 3 Public divisions and 2 private divisions would not cheapen a state title.

[Termite2]

Originally Posted by J.R. Swish

............. D3 and D4 schools with 3 or 4 division 1 college prospects on their squads??? Public schools NEVER have that and NEVER will. ......................

Never have that? D3 NCH had 4 on the same team; with 2 of them top 10 recruits, another top 100 and the 4th a Mcdonald's All American, all on the same team.

OJ Mayo [ 3rd in the nation] class of 2007
Billy Walker [7th in the nation] class of 2007
Keenan Ellis [93rd in the nation] class of 2007
Damon Butler [McDonald's All-American-grades a problem for college] class of 2008

[Auggie]

Originally Posted by Look Ma No Hands

Any "multiplier" would seem to help public schools in lower divisions, but it would actually make it more difficult for Division I public schools. They'd have to play more private schools who get bumped up to Div 1.

This is basically the problem with the plan that starts next year. Those pubs that are squaking the loudest, Wayne County in particular, got their deal in place and basically threw their large brothers under the bus. The tipping point will be though when VASJ gets bumped up only to be replaced by a Lutheran East or some other small urban based school and the out comes are the same. As Pete so eloquently put it, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Still don't see why the smaller rural based school don't separate on their own and create a nirvana like organization. Does the OHSAA history mean that much that you have to look like a bad guy and push an exclusionary agenda?

[COACH_XYZ&12345]

Originally Posted by Auggie

This is basically the problem with the plan that starts next year. Those pubs that are squaking the loudest, Wayne County in particular, got their deal in place and basically threw their large brothers under the bus. The tipping point will be though when VASJ gets bumped up only to be replaced by a Lutheran East or some other small urban based school and the out comes are the same. As Pete so eloquently put it, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Still don't see why the smaller rural based school don't separate on their own and create a nirvana like organization. Does the OHSAA history mean that much that you have to look like a bad guy and push an exclusionary agenda?

Why stop at the small rural schools? I think every public school in the state who complains about privates should grow a pair and interscholastically formulate associations if privates winning the majority of state championships is bothersome. I believe there will be a breaking point in due time where schools will start forming their own associations. It might start at the micro (rural) level then domino effect beyond to larger schools.

[BulldogBob]

Originally Posted by J.R. Swish

Believe me, I am not the guy that thinks "every kid needs a trophy" but this thread is about public v. privates. I just think now more than ever the gap between the schools is bigger than ever and growing. Look specifically at D3 and D4 schools....there is no way public schools can compete with the privates. D3 and D4 schools with 3 or 4 division 1 college prospects on their squads??? Public schools NEVER have that and NEVER will. Privates are playing by different rules so they should compete against each other who use those same rules. 3 Public divisions and 2 private divisions would not cheapen a state title.

This is the most rational post I've seen on this subject. Nice post!

[BulldogBob]

Fairness isn't changing the rules because one group is more successful than the other. Fairness isn't equal outcomes. It's equal opportunity.

You've just contradicted yourself. If fairness is about "equal opportunity", then privates violate your premise by recruiting when publics can't. Hardly "equal" or fair.

And if a split happens and the privates leave the OHSAA, c'est la vie! Recruit athletes as much as you want, but the publics will at least have a level playing field on which to play, and their communities will start filling seats again.

[coachablekid]

I would change one rule that OHSAA has in place now and that enrollment should be counted from sophomore class through senior class, not freshman to junior class. The competitive balance piece is not fair. It is setting up the city school for failure like always. They are already behind the 8 ball as far as facilities. Counting one kid as 2 is not fair just because they don't go to your feeder school. So once again the catholic schools and other private schools are set up to win. They can recruit, give scholarships to inner city kids. They are set up to win! Change the enrollment numbers from sophomore to seniors and don't use the competitive balance and you will see some competition.

[Auggie]

Originally Posted by BulldogBob

You've just contradicted yourself. If fairness is about "equal opportunity", then privates violate your premise by recruiting when publics can't. Hardly "equal" or fair.

And if a split happens and the privates leave the OHSAA, c'est la vie! Recruit athletes as much as you want, but the publics will at least have a level playing field on which to play, and their communities will start filling seats again.

Until some urban smallish inner ring suburban program with a porous boarder and tons of rental properties like Richmond Heights comes and slaps around some rural program.

So bulldog, why don't the pubs that don't like the rules just leave the OHSAA and start a new organization?

[BulldogBob]

Originally Posted by Auggie

Until some urban smallish inner ring suburban program with a porous boarder and tons of rental properties like Richmond Heights comes and slaps around some rural program.

So bulldog, why don't the pubs that don't like the rules just leave the OHSAA and start a new organization?

We publics constitute 86% percent of the OHSAA, so YOU can leave, start your own association, and don't let the door hit you on your recruiting derrieres on the way out!

[winbypin]

Originally Posted by BulldogBob

You've just contradicted yourself. If fairness is about "equal opportunity", then privates violate your premise by recruiting when publics can't. Hardly "equal" or fair.

And if a split happens and the privates leave the OHSAA, c'est la vie! Recruit athletes as much as you want, but the publics will at least have a level playing field on which to play, and their communities will start filling seats again.

First...publics DO in fact recruit. Publics have been busted for recruiting violations like some privates have. But under OHSAA, no school can recruit for purely athletic reasons. Applies to both public and private schools. Same rules = same opportunity.

I know, I know. Privates advertise their open houses, etc. So what? Drove by the local public school board on the way to someplace else the other date. Know what their flashing sign out front said? "Open Enrollment Meeting....Open Enrollment Dates....". They both do it. Get over it.

Second....you really think private schools are the reason local communities aren't filling their seats? Because the playing field isn't "level"? You really think the average person that attends a high school basketball or football game cares about private schools or just cares about enjoying the game? Ha ha. Maybe the empty seats is a sign of another problem?

[Auggie]

Originally Posted by BulldogBob

We publics constitute 86% percent of the OHSAA, so YOU can leave, start your own association, and don't let the door hit you on your recruiting derrieres on the way out!

It doesn't appear they are leaving, so what is your next move? Again you have not answered the question, saying you are the majority doesn't mean all agree. Look at some of the past votes, that 86% is not a unified majority so things are not that easy. Kicking out privates, which is what a vote for separation really is, would not really endear folks to support their local public school when it comes things like a levy or bond vote for more tax $s.

[winbypin]

Originally Posted by coachablekid

I would change one rule that OHSAA has in place now and that enrollment should be counted from sophomore class through senior class, not freshman to junior class. The competitive balance piece is not fair. It is setting up the city school for failure like always. They are already behind the 8 ball as far as facilities. Counting one kid as 2 is not fair just because they don't go to your feeder school. So once again the catholic schools and other private schools are set up to win. They can recruit, give scholarships to inner city kids. They are set up to win! Change the enrollment numbers from sophomore to seniors and don't use the competitive balance and you will see some competition.

You might want to review this before you post again.

http://www.ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Schoo...Balance101.pdf

[winbypin]

Originally Posted by BulldogBob

We publics constitute 86% percent of the OHSAA, so YOU can leave, start your own association, and don't let the door hit you on your recruiting derrieres on the way out!

And when you STILL don't win a state title....what next?

[22 Acacia Ave]

Originally Posted by Bball216

There are a lot of mediocre to bad teams in Ohio that no matter what you do will have zero chance to win a state title. It's on those programs to improve. It's like in school do you study harder or make the test easier. If there is a split between public and private don't be surprised if the large mega powerful privates leave the OHSAA and become prep schools. They would have ZERO rules to follow and could legitimately walk right into your gym and offer your kids a free education, a national schedule and maximum exposure. It would create massive issues. People constantly complain about the lower divisions what about the poor teams that play in D1. Things are going to get even tougher on them.

bs...strawmanning at its best.

[HardCorps]

Second....you really think private schools are the reason local communities aren't filling their seats? Because the playing field isn't "level"? You really think the average person that attends a high school basketball or football game cares about private schools or just cares about enjoying the game? Ha ha. Maybe the empty seats is a sign of another problem?[/QUOTE]

I am not a gcl guy. With that being said, in SW Ohio, if I want to watch a game in which both teams run a quality offense, play outstanding defense and the coaches are actually into the game, I would almost always have to go watch a gcl game. Sure, the GMC has a couple of good games per year, the GWOC has a couple of good games a year and there are some good games in Cincy such as Walnut Hills vs. Withrow. I am not talking about a game being great because one team was victorious by 1 point in double overtime. I appreciate basic, fundamental basketball played by players with a high basketball IQ. It is slim pickings, down here. Real slim. Who wants to go watch some of the products that are only worked on during basketball season?

[eastofeden]

ohsaa may not have a choice...if crowds continue to dwindle...will have to do something....private schools are bringing less and less fans...am surprised at that

[Curious One]

Originally Posted by Termite2

Never have that? D3 NCH had 4 on the same team; with 2 of them top 10 recruits, another top 100 and the 4th a Mcdonald's All American, all on the same team.

OJ Mayo [ 3rd in the nation] class of 2007
Billy Walker [7th in the nation] class of 2007
Keenan Ellis [93rd in the nation] class of 2007
Damon Butler [McDonald's All-American-grades a problem for college] class of 2008

They were also found to be outside the rules and Ellis and Walker lost a year of eligibility!

[Termite2]

Originally Posted by Curious One

They were also found to be outside the rules and Ellis and Walker lost a year of eligibility!

They were not found to be outside the rules, according to the OHSAA, they got 4 years of eligibility from the time they played on a high school team. The OHSAA determined that they had used up their 4 years, they played varsity while in the 8th grade in KY.

[Bball216]

I find it funny how so much attention is put on the private schools and none on the growing number of public schools with open enrollment. These schools can pose an even bigger issue because they can offer kids free education or one much cheaper than the private. There is shady stuff that goes on at some of the public schools in NE Ohio that have an urban location with a large apartment population. Did everybody see the last numbers on VASJ ? I think they listed 155 boys. Even with the CBP Joe's might stay D3. Even if Joe's bumps up there will be a new sheriff that takes over like another poster said. I do not know what the correct formula is but the first thing many have to realize is that under any system your going to have a large contingent of schools that have for whatever reasons no shot at winning a state title. You could have 10 divisions and you would still have complaints about something being unfair.

[BulldogBob]

Originally Posted by winbypin

And when you STILL don't win a state title....what next?

We already have twelve in football, 4 in basketball, and 38 team state championships in 7 different sports.. But you are obviously (and intentionally) missing the point.

[BulldogBob]

Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave

bs...strawmanning at its best.

It's all they have. They are zealots for their "mission" and will argue nonsense and filibuster threads in its pursuit.