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  #61  
Old 03-27-17, 11:03 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Sure. But the measure would hurt the small PRIVATE schools. JFK, Canton catholic, Alter and Hartley would never win a championship again! They wouldn't be playing the farmers throughout the playoffs anymore.
LOL. Don't know that those are good examples.

JFK has only won 2 and the last one was 1991. Alter & Hartley are D4 I believe. Canton won their third and was beaten the two years prior to farm team Coldwater.

In D5-D7, "farm" teams tend to rule.
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  #62  
Old 03-27-17, 11:08 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
LOL. Don't know that those are good examples.

JFK has only won 2 and the last one was 1991. Alter & Hartley are D4 I believe. Canton won their third and was beaten the two years prior to farm team Coldwater.

In D5-D7, "farm" teams tend to rule.
If you go back and read what my original post referred to, it had nothing to do with Colwater. Point being, if you get rid of D5-7 in football, the small privates won't be winning any more titles. Fact. Have fun arguing that
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  #63  
Old 03-27-17, 11:18 AM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
Could be, but that's a completely different scenario than simply having separate tournaments. I'm not sure what advantage there would be for the private schools to leave OHSAA. Or should I say, I can't think of an advantage that would be significant enough to get the private schools to agree to leave. Most people follow the path of least resistance; which would be to go along with separate tournaments, if that is the direction taken.
Valid points, but if you ask me...

- the success of a few private schools is definitely not representative of the entire private school population in Ohio. There are also plenty, plenty of private schools that do in fact 'play by the rules' (no direct recruiting, esp. not for athletics purposes.) As a consequence of playing by the rules, many of these schools are sacrificing the influx of enrollment that'd likely happen if they could directly recruit students for athletics. For schools like Bishop Ready, Louisville STA etc, they're prioritizing principle over pragmatism. By not recruiting directly (for athletics), they are seeing gradual losses in enrollment from which they might never recover (which leads to closure.) So, if you segregate them into their own one or two division tournament, they're going to have to play the schools that 'may or may not' have the same philosophy of playing by the rules and get bounced by a team that (allegedly) recruits directly or in a one division set up they're going to have to play Moeller or Ed's first or second round. Current rules of no recruiting, but a combined tournament, effectively does nothing for the vast majority of private schools other than them playing schools that have the same enrollment; a system of no recruiting and a segregated tournament effectively kills the small private schools' chances of ever making it past the first or second round.

Let them recruit and play separate, don't let them recruit and play combined, or leave OHSAA and make it open season for recruiting while playing in their own state tournament. Those are the only three endgames that can keep the small privates, the ones people don't complain about, able to be competitive and possibly afloat. 'Play separate and don't let them recruit' is not a solution for all of the private schools unless you make it three or four divisions for the private schools as well. Anyone here think Ashtabula St. John can go far in a hypothetical private, small school division if they have to play NDCL or VASJ in round one? What about in a one-size-fits-all private division; anyone think they can beat Ed's?


As for path of least resistance - true, but as I'm saying above in this post, for some schools the path of least resistance could be the road to closure.

Advantages the privates would have: in theory (because I have neither readily accessible quantitative data nor the time to search and organize such), student athletes that make for good candidates to play college sports at the NCAA D1, D2, and D3 level on both a talent level and academic level. This largely is pinned on my theory that, because of generally stricter and rigid academic requirements (in addition to qualitative aspects, such as the home life and support system of a family that can afford private school tuition a la two parents, one or two incomes) private schools may have a better percentage of students that are academically eligible to play NCAA sports immediately after high school graduation. That doesn't mean all kids from private schools do qualify off the bat, but how many talented kids that have to do JuCo/community college or NAIA because of low grades or ACT can you think of that come from public (because they have to take on everybody) schools; particularly urban ones? Between a state final of, say, Roger Bacon and VASJ versus an average public school (or even two urban schools), who might have more kids that are academically eligible and athletically credentialed to play in the NCAA? Consequently, which of the two state finals may more college coaches and recruiters be interested to buy tickets/passes for? The school I follow has never really been a sports powerhouse at the state level, but the most recent graduating class of 46 had a kid commit to the Big 10 for running, a kid to Cornell for football, one D2 and several D3. Good athletes, but even better students. **IF** my theory is true that private schools have a higher percentage of kids that are NCAA eligible academically, NCAA level athletically, and obviously a higher percentage of families that are able and willing to take on partial scholarships - then it makes sense why an all private school tournament could make some sense, because there would be a college recruiting interest in the private school tournament that might not be as present for an all-public school tournament (one that probably loses its efficacy in part because the best teams in the state across public and private lines aren't there competing.) Look at New Jersey, I believe they have separate tournaments. Where does all of the athletic talent from NJ for basketball and football come from? Private schools.

Last edited by The Dock; 03-27-17 at 11:37 AM.
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  #64  
Old 03-27-17, 11:28 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
If you go back and read what my original post referred to, it had nothing to do with Colwater. Point being, if you get rid of D5-7 in football, the small privates won't be winning any more titles. Fact. Have fun arguing that
You're acting like they have been winning state titles in those divisions year after year. But they aren't really winning D5-D7 now. That's the point. Unless you want to lean on Delphos St. Johns to help your argument. But they have more in common with the "farm" teams than the privates you want to hate on.

By and large, those divisions have been dominated by the "farm" teams. So I guess you're right. If you remove their chances to upset one of the "farm" teams in D5-D7 to win a state title that they have now, they would have even slimmer chances. Other than to stir the pot, I am not sure what your real point is here.
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  #65  
Old 03-27-17, 11:40 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
You're acting like they have been winning state titles in those divisions year after year. But they aren't really winning D5-D7 now. That's the point. Unless you want to lean on Delphos St. Johns to help your argument. But they have more in common with the "farm" teams than the privates you want to hate on.

By and large, those divisions have been dominated by the "farm" teams. So I guess you're right. If you remove their chances to upset one of the "farm" teams in D5-D7 to win a state title that they have now, they would have even slimmer chances. Other than to stir the pot, I am not sure what your real point is here.
Ha, if it wasn't for one team in the state in D5, Coldwater, Canton catholic would have won 3 straight titles because they sleep walk through the cornfields to the finals every year. So sure, I guess there are 2-3 MAC teams that can compete with them. 3 farm teams in the state! If you take away D5-7...poof! no more titles! Congratulations, you have found 2-3 farm schools IN THE STATE that can compete with the small privates from the metro areas. Congrats!
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  #66  
Old 03-27-17, 11:50 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by ucfpengbuck View Post
The denial gets deeper every year. All the private school backer have long drawn out rationalization that would make a drunken congressman blush.
I don't care if you get the best players from a larger radius than an average public school.
Please just for once admit that you have an advantage fair or unfair.
Tired of hearing about superior education.
Don't want to hear about giving a kid an opportunity to escape an inner-city school. College recruiters know what kids can play from aau and camps not your prestigious high school.
Geez, so do you want Asiago or a slice of Parm to go with that whine?

On the flip side, when will the Public School backers admit that they have an advantage, fair or unfair, when it comes to football Divisions III, IV, V, VI, and VII? I mean for crying out loud, they consistently give out free tuition to encourage local behemoths to come to their school and beat the crap out of private school basketball players that play football. When are they going to start charging tuition to level the playing field??
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  #67  
Old 03-27-17, 11:50 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Ha, if it wasn't for one team in the state in D5, Coldwater, Canton catholic would have won 3 straight titles because they sleep walk through the cornfields to the finals every year. So sure, I guess there are 2-3 MAC teams that can compete with them. 3 farm teams in the state! If you take away D5-7...poof! no more titles! Congratulations, you have found 2-3 farm schools IN THE STATE that can compete with the small privates from the metro areas. Congrats!
I am so sorry that the facts hurt your argument whatever that may be.

No matter whoever is winning in D5-D7 if you take away those divisions then obviously those teams are likely to win less. Well no duh.
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  #68  
Old 03-27-17, 11:57 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post

No matter whoever is winning in D5-D7 if you take away those divisions then obviously those teams are likely to win less. .
Thanks, man! Not less likely. They won't win.
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  #69  
Old 03-27-17, 12:06 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Thanks, man! Not less likely. They won't win.
Yea, I am not 100% convinced of that statement. I think both CW & CCC have demonstrated they could compete in D4. And with ML beating CW in the past, you could throw them in the mix. Kirtland too. There are a handful of teams in D5-D7 that could compete in D4. Not saying they would win every year but they certainly wouldn't embarrass themselves and there would be some better first round games.
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  #70  
Old 03-27-17, 12:39 PM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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It just seems like the gap is getting bigger between public/private every year in boys hoops. I liked the suggestion I read somewhere to make 3 public divisions and 2 private divisions. It would give medium and small public schools a chance to win a title with home grown kids who were born and raised in their district. This is another reason attendance is down at state games IMO.
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  #71  
Old 03-27-17, 12:46 PM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
It just seems like the gap is getting bigger between public/private every year in boys hoops. I liked the suggestion I read somewhere to make 3 public divisions and 2 private divisions. It would give medium and small public schools a chance to win a title with home grown kids who were born and raised in their district. This is another reason attendance is down at state games IMO.
Without a doubt. Typical fans are tired of it.
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  #72  
Old 03-27-17, 12:58 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
It just seems like the gap is getting bigger between public/private every year in boys hoops. I liked the suggestion I read somewhere to make 3 public divisions and 2 private divisions. It would give medium and small public schools a chance to win a title with home grown kids who were born and raised in their district. This is another reason attendance is down at state games IMO.
Yeah, it's all about the private schools stealing the show. I am sure attendance being down has nothing to do with driving 2 1/2 hours each way paying about $50 in gas, buying $15 tickets for end zones while OSU season ticket holders have the best seats in the house and parking a mile away and taking a packed bus in from the parking lot verse sitting in the comfort of a recliner in front of a 60" UHDTV. Attendance is down in all sports including the pros because of high costs and high quality television coverage.

Last edited by MugnMaul78; 03-27-17 at 02:44 PM.
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  #73  
Old 03-27-17, 01:17 PM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Attendance is down in all sports including the pros because of high costs and high quality television coverage.
and aau all-star teams dominating the sport.

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  #74  
Old 03-27-17, 01:43 PM
FootsWalker FootsWalker is offline
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Since this ongoing discussion involves all the other sports, and not just hoop, I went to the OHSAA site to see what the mix was so far this year. Fall & Winter team results include: Football, Volleyball, Boys Golf, Girls Golf, Boys CC, Girls CC, Boys Soccer, Girls Soccer, Wrestling, Boys Basketball, Girls Basketball, Boys Swimming, Girls Swimming, Boys Bowling, Girls Bowling; I did not include Girls Tennis, as they only award individual winners for singles & doubles in 2 divisions, and not a team champ (FWIW the private-public split was 2-2). In total, the score is Privates 26 Publics 21. Privates kinda had their way in FB, VB, B&G Soccer, B&G BB, winning those by a margin of 19-6, whereas Publics had the upper hand in B&G Golf, B&G CC,B&G Bowl, B&G Swim, Wres, winning these sports 15-7. The total of 26 outta 47 is running at a 55% clip, although the Spring sports will probably bring that down to more like 50% if recent history is any guide from Baseball, Softball, B&G Track. Depending on the sport ,Privates comprise somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-16% of competing teams, so 55% does seem to be unusually high for this year. Not sure if this is a total aberration or signs of an increasing trend, but it definitely provides some food for thought. Not taking sides, I'm just the messenger here......
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  #75  
Old 03-27-17, 02:36 PM
JAS JAS is offline
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Originally Posted by FootsWalker View Post
Since this ongoing discussion involves all the other sports, and not just hoop, I went to the OHSAA site to see what the mix was so far this year. Fall & Winter team results include: Football, Volleyball, Boys Golf, Girls Golf, Boys CC, Girls CC, Boys Soccer, Girls Soccer, Wrestling, Boys Basketball, Girls Basketball, Boys Swimming, Girls Swimming, Boys Bowling, Girls Bowling; I did not include Girls Tennis, as they only award individual winners for singles & doubles in 2 divisions, and not a team champ (FWIW the private-public split was 2-2). In total, the score is Privates 26 Publics 21. Privates kinda had their way in FB, VB, B&G Soccer, B&G BB, winning those by a margin of 19-6, whereas Publics had the upper hand in B&G Golf, B&G CC,B&G Bowl, B&G Swim, Wres, winning these sports 15-7. The total of 26 outta 47 is running at a 55% clip, although the Spring sports will probably bring that down to more like 50% if recent history is any guide from Baseball, Softball, B&G Track. Depending on the sport ,Privates comprise somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-16% of competing teams, so 55% does seem to be unusually high for this year. Not sure if this is a total aberration or signs of an increasing trend, but it definitely provides some food for thought. Not taking sides, I'm just the messenger here......
Just because public schools make up 85% of the state does not mean they should win 85% of the championships. Let's look at D1 basketball in SW Ohio. I believe there are 56 teams in the SW Region. So if we assume they each have an equal chance it would be around 2% for each team to win the region. But of course that is not the reality because so many public schools lack the talent to win a region. Of those 56 maybe only 15-20 had a real chance of winning the region and then odds are tiered from there. Private schools should probably win about 33% of championships and that comes with the uniqueness of being a private school. Competitive balance is a good fix for the issue except for one aspect. The schools that have their population pecked by private schools don't get any help. IE Mason who losses basketball players to Moeller, etc. It adds to Moeller's enrollment to have a Mason kid by a multiplier but there should be a multiplier decrease for Mason as well.
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  #76  
Old 03-27-17, 02:49 PM
ucfpengbuck ucfpengbuck is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Geez, so do you want Asiago or a slice of Parm to go with that whine?

On the flip side, when will the Public School backers admit that they have an advantage, fair or unfair, when it comes to football Divisions III, IV, V, VI, and VII? I mean for crying out loud, they consistently give out free tuition to encourage local behemoths to come to their school and beat the crap out of private school basketball players that play football. When are they going to start charging tuition to level the playing field??
Great spin. Ursuline and Mooney love playing d4 football. Nothing like beating Struthers or Lakeview in the playoffs.

I'm sorry I ever said anything . I forgot that I should just shut up and take but kicking while the privates take the best players from ours and the other communities.

Will just have to learn to work harder while you guys hoist your trophies and celebrate your accomplishments.
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  #77  
Old 03-27-17, 03:05 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by ucfpengbuck View Post
Great spin. Ursuline and Mooney love playing d4 football. Nothing like beating Struthers or Lakeview in the playoffs.

I'm sorry I ever said anything . I forgot that I should just shut up and take but kicking while the privates take the best players from ours and the other communities.

Will just have to learn to work harder while you guys hoist your trophies and celebrate your accomplishments.
Well VASJ got our tales kicked in, in football, by Berlin Highland in 2011 and Mogadore in 2013. They were huge and powerful. Our only big guy 6'5 270 lbs got his leg broken against Mogadore and had plates and screws put in. You didn't hear us itchin, all you heard in our halls was that we got to get better and lift more. That's the way it goes.
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  #78  
Old 03-27-17, 03:18 PM
bartbiggs24 bartbiggs24 is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Well VASJ got our tales kicked in, in football, by Berlin Highland in 2011 and Mogadore in 2013. They were huge and powerful. Our only big guy 6'5 270 lbs got his leg broken against Mogadore and had plates and screws put in. You didn't hear us itchin, all you heard in our halls was that we got to get better and lift more. That's the way it goes.


Berlin Hiland doesn't have a football program. Never has


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #79  
Old 03-27-17, 03:22 PM
ucfpengbuck ucfpengbuck is offline
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1.lift more.
2. Work harder.
3. Search all middle schools within a 25 mile radius.
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  #80  
Old 03-27-17, 03:36 PM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Berlin Hiland doesn't have a football program. Never has


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I believe he confused Berlin Hiland with Berline Center Western Reserve.
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  #81  
Old 03-27-17, 03:36 PM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Berlin Hiland doesn't have a football program. Never has


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I believe he confused Berlin Hiland with Berlin Center Western Reserve.
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  #82  
Old 03-27-17, 03:41 PM
bass10 bass10 is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Well VASJ got our tales kicked in, in football, by Berlin Highland in 2011 and Mogadore in 2013. They were huge and powerful. Our only big guy 6'5 270 lbs got his leg broken against Mogadore and had plates and screws put in. You didn't hear us itchin, all you heard in our halls was that we got to get better and lift more. That's the way it goes.
Easier to get 5 big time players than 22.
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  #83  
Old 03-27-17, 03:58 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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I believe he confused Berlin Hiland with Berline Center Western Reserve.
Thank you for that correction. The result was the same; http://highschoolsports.cleveland.co...a-st-joseph-6/

Forgot to add Kirtland to the mix too, they also had their way with us in football over the last few years.
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  #84  
Old 03-27-17, 05:54 PM
goldentornado goldentornado is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Thank you for that correction. The result was the same; http://highschoolsports.cleveland.co...a-st-joseph-6/

Forgot to add Kirtland to the mix too, they also had their way with us in football over the last few years.
maybe VASJ needs to worker harder in the scouting department
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  #85  
Old 03-27-17, 10:05 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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maybe VASJ needs to worker harder in the scouting department
On the football side we have to work harder in lots of areas.
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  #86  
Old 03-27-17, 10:39 PM
Jaws31 Jaws31 is offline
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Originally Posted by McK93 View Post
Yes, kids only sacrifice at private schools. Jesus H. Christ could you be more arrogant? Talk about not having a clue.
I was talking about the sacrifices made by the parents not the kids. It's the people who just run with innuendo, rumors and hearsay about what actually takes place inside these schools that are the ones who are clueless. Sorry if your delicate sensibilities were bothered by my percieved arrogance. But that's what this all breaks down to isn't it? Peoples feelings being hurt?
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  #87  
Old 03-28-17, 10:33 AM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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Jaws....it is about a level playing field not feelings being hurt. School in town of 20,000 people plays another school in neighboring town of 20,000 people.....that is a fair fight. Now winner of that game moves onto play a private school in town of 100,000 who recruits or chooses the best players in that town of 100,000. Not a fair fight. Or maybe a better example is a private school near those two towns of 20,000 takes the best two players off each school then beats both schools in the tourney....not a fair fight. You get it Jaws???
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  #88  
Old 03-28-17, 10:40 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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You get it Jaws???
Anyone with a brain gets it. But these biased private guys will never admit their advantages. Deny till the end.
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  #89  
Old 03-28-17, 11:06 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
Jaws....it is about a level playing field not feelings being hurt. School in town of 20,000 people plays another school in neighboring town of 20,000 people.....that is a fair fight. Now winner of that game moves onto play a private school in town of 100,000 who recruits or chooses the best players in that town of 100,000. Not a fair fight. Or maybe a better example is a private school near those two towns of 20,000 takes the best two players off each school then beats both schools in the tourney....not a fair fight. You get it Jaws???
You're right, let's have a small town DI to DIV title and a large town DI to DIV title and be done with it. I am sure no one will have any issues of what qualifies as small and large towns but at least the issue will be put to bed, the field will be level, and 8 teams will have a trophy. Wait a minute, it needs to be "fair", are we sure we don't want a midsize town DI to DIV title too, what about those guys?
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  #90  
Old 03-28-17, 11:11 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by J.R. Swish View Post
Jaws....it is about a level playing field not feelings being hurt. School in town of 20,000 people plays another school in neighboring town of 20,000 people.....that is a fair fight. Now winner of that game moves onto play a private school in town of 100,000 who recruits or chooses the best players in that town of 100,000. Not a fair fight. Or maybe a better example is a private school near those two towns of 20,000 takes the best two players off each school then beats both schools in the tourney....not a fair fight. You get it Jaws???
So is your issue private versus public or metro versus county? Is your small town public school going to be able to compete against big city open enrollment public schools? I agree that economies of scale come into play, but why wouldn't the same issue arise with big city publics? Would Wauseon have had an easier time against Trotwood Madison than it did against STVM? If you split publics and privates, then why wouldn't the big city public win the vast majority of the titles? What would be "fair" under your logic?
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