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  #61  
Old 03-27-17, 12:08 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
What the official did right there was execute the method of Preventative Officiating. Given the circumstances of the game, (time remaining, score, possession, possession arrow, ball location, etc...) he knew what the opponent was trying to do and he also knew the severity of the penalty. He tried to talk him out of an Intentional Foul. (he barked at him to stop) When he didn't stop, he did what was required by the rule and the Point of Emphasis covering this situation.

Had he sensed that the player being bumped was ready to retaliate on the first bump, he would have jumped all over the whistle and called the Intentional Foul right then and there.

It's a method of officiating that is utilized constantly throughout a game. Sometimes everyone sees it. Sometimes it's a quiet word between official and player and sometimes it's communicated through a captain, assistant coach, or head coach.

Training and experience pays off.
Excellent insight and explanation.
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  #62  
Old 03-27-17, 12:13 PM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by Hayden Fox View Post
State Champs! We knew this senior class was special and they delivered!

Greatest decade in Jackson sports history

2010: basketball state Champs

2014: baseball state Champs

2017: basketball state Champs

And what's better it was all against Moeller.

The school that started the recruiting craze in Ohio gets buried by a closed enrollment public
Quit whining, Big Moe. Maybe Jackson will let you win next year.
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  #63  
Old 03-27-17, 12:49 PM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
What the official did right there was execute the method of Preventative Officiating. Given the circumstances of the game, (time remaining, score, possession, possession arrow, ball location, etc...) he knew what the opponent was trying to do and he also knew the severity of the penalty. He tried to talk him out of an Intentional Foul. (he barked at him to stop) When he didn't stop, he did what was required by the rule and the Point of Emphasis covering this situation.

Had he sensed that the player being bumped was ready to retaliate on the first bump, he would have jumped all over the whistle and called the Intentional Foul right then and there.

It's a method of officiating that is utilized constantly throughout a game. Sometimes everyone sees it. Sometimes it's a quiet word between official and player and sometimes it's communicated through a captain, assistant coach, or head coach.

Training and experience pays off.
This is a good post- thanks for the insight. I watch a ton of basketball and have kids who have played at the top level in high school and one in college but this was boggling to me like so many others. After some time to digest the info- it does make sense why it was called, just tough to digest.
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  #64  
Old 03-28-17, 10:06 AM
COACH_XYZ&12345 COACH_XYZ&12345 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
This is a good post- thanks for the insight. I watch a ton of basketball and have kids who have played at the top level in high school and one in college but this was boggling to me like so many others. After some time to digest the info- it does make sense why it was called, just tough to digest.
Yes digesting truth is a difficult endeavor for many.
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  #65  
Old 03-29-17, 12:03 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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I have always done my best to not have blinders on and be fair on here- the truth is, no matter what your opinion of it, it was still a subjective call. Makes sense why it was called, but the fact that it doesn't have to be called yet was when a state championship was on the line does make it very tough to digest. Truth is- it didn't have to be called, but I understand why it was and have said on here that it wasn't the reason Moeller lost- they didn't play as well as Jackson did on Saturday.
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  #66  
Old 03-29-17, 07:19 AM
jwuerth jwuerth is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
I have always done my best to not have blinders on and be fair on here- the truth is, no matter what your opinion of it, it was still a subjective call. Makes sense why it was called, but the fact that it doesn't have to be called yet was when a state championship was on the line does make it very tough to digest. Truth is- it didn't have to be called, but I understand why it was and have said on here that it wasn't the reason Moeller lost- they didn't play as well as Jackson did on Saturday.
In reality it was not a subjective call, it was in fact called according to the rule book. And should be called more often. And this has nothing to do with Moeller. It was 100% the right call, and even moreso as he warned the kid twice to stop.
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  #67  
Old 03-29-17, 10:24 AM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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and that coach that needs the fouls, to get the other team to the line, and doesn't get the calls? How's their opinion on "doesn't need to be called."

The rules are there so coaches and players aren't guessing. Refs should not be "letting them play" or whatever vernacular someone wants to put to it. They should be calling the rule book.
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  #68  
Old 03-29-17, 09:34 PM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by jwuerth View Post
In reality it was not a subjective call, it was in fact called according to the rule book. And should be called more often. And this has nothing to do with Moeller. It was 100% the right call, and even moreso as he warned the kid twice to stop.
So if it "should be called more often" does that mean the foul happens and is not always called? That's subjective to me- when the rule is not always applied.
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  #69  
Old 03-30-17, 07:20 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
So if it "should be called more often" does that mean the foul happens and is not always called? That's subjective to me- when the rule is not always applied.
The rule is not subjective. The action of the players involve are subject to judgment, such as...

The type of contact
The severity of contact (although severe contact is not automatically a foul)
Was the player being contacted a part of the play?

etc.....
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  #70  
Old 03-30-17, 08:42 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The rule is not subjective. The action of the players involve are subject to judgment, such as...

The type of contact
The severity of contact (although severe contact is not automatically a foul)
Was the player being contacted a part of the play?

etc.....
Maybe subjective isn't the perfect word, but that the rule in place is open to a judgement call. The call on the foul is not applied every time and is not given the same "punishment" every time. just as speeding is always illegal, you don't get ticketed every time. Most people go a little over the speed limit from time to time without getting pulled over- but they are still speeding. For anyone to say that this foul is always called and always is treated as an intentional would be incorrect
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  #71  
Old 03-30-17, 09:28 AM
satriani satriani is offline
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Jackson 39 Moeller 38. Jackson's best player (and arguably the best player in the state) was 1-10 and scored 5 points. Moeller fans should quit complaining about the refs. What more could they have wanted to put themselves in a position to win? Go freaking make plays when you get a gift like that. If KY has anything close to his typical game, it's a blowout. Arguably there were a lot of no calls on Moeller down low against Kyle Young but you won't hear anyone talk about that. Moeller is a good team but Jackson was better.
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  #72  
Old 03-30-17, 09:32 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
Maybe subjective isn't the perfect word, but that the rule in place is open to a judgement call.
Just as the rule for traveling is open to judgment. Did he pick up his pivot foot prior to releasing the ball on a dribble?....etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
The call on the foul is not applied every time and is not given the same "punishment" every time. just as speeding is always illegal, you don't get ticketed every time. Most people go a little over the speed limit from time to time without getting pulled over- but they are still speeding. For anyone to say that this foul is always called and always is treated as an intentional would be incorrect
Ok, to put this to rest, ( hopefully ) ask yourself this question........

Knowing that there is a rule covering this situation, and knowing that the rule is clear........... Why do people complain about the guy who correctly applies the rule?

I know the answer
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  #73  
Old 03-30-17, 12:47 PM
hvs1717 hvs1717 is offline
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Regardless of the op's opinion, this is a tactic that is used by many coaches. Jackson's coach made a great counter by putting Hill at the far end of the court so it would be obvious if he intentionally fouled him and the kid trying to do it, did it poorly. It was a pretty easy call for the ref. Give Jackson credit, they made one less mistake and one more play than Moeller did.
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  #74  
Old 03-30-17, 12:51 PM
hvs1717 hvs1717 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
and that coach that needs the fouls, to get the other team to the line, and doesn't get the calls? How's their opinion on "doesn't need to be called."

The rules are there so coaches and players aren't guessing. Refs should not be "letting them play" or whatever vernacular someone wants to put to it. They should be calling the rule book.
I agree with this so much. I absolutely hate it when refs refuse to call fouls in some lame attempt to "not affect the game and let the players decide it." If you are calling the game and not abiding by the rules, then you are in fact deciding the game, instead of letting the players decide it.
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  #75  
Old 03-30-17, 01:50 PM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
I've seen in the NBA where they would literally jump on Deandre Jordan's back to put him on the line. In a way, I don't which is the better view; to allow the foul to be a regular foul and be done with it (This makes sense, because the coach of the team that is in front could always put his best FT shooters on the floor); or to make it intentional (This makes sense, too. But in a way you are allowing the team in the lead to not to have to make adjustments). IMO, it would probably be best to just treat it as a foul. If you can foul the guy who has the ball and not have that be intentional (even though it is!), then why can't you foul any other person on the floor as well and have it treated the same way. If you are a fan of strategy, then let it be a regular foul. The team's head coach has the chance to switch out offense for defense (or in this case, rotate in FT shooters). If a guy can't shoot free throws and is on the floor at crunch time, should the rules protect him?
I believe that the NBA does not allow this anymore inside 2 minutes of the game. An intentional foul off the ball or a foul before the inbounds pass results in free throws and the offensive team maintains possession. This certainly solves the problem.
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  #76  
Old 03-30-17, 02:25 PM
Hoban2019 Hoban2019 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Knowing that there is a rule covering this situation, and knowing that the rule is clear........... Why do people complain about the guy who correctly applies the rule?
The reason is that some referees would have made that call, and others would have not. We see it at every level of play. Some refs decide to swallow their whistles at the end of the game, others do not. The fact that refs are inconsistent in their approach is what leads to problems like this. It's obvious that the Moeller coach had gotten away with this in the past and that's why he tried it here.
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  #77  
Old 03-30-17, 02:36 PM
Hoban2019 Hoban2019 is offline
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Originally Posted by jwuerth View Post
In reality it was not a subjective call, it was in fact called according to the rule book. And should be called more often. And this has nothing to do with Moeller. It was 100% the right call, and even moreso as he warned the kid twice to stop.
I honestly don't know the answer to this and am looking to be educated.

Does the rule book speak about "preventative officiating" and warning players who are committing a violation in lieu of calling that violation, whenever a ref sees fit? Depending on time and score?
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  #78  
Old 03-30-17, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
How about we commend the ref on having the wherewithal and the onions to call that foul @ that point in a state title game. We all bury the refs from time-to-time, but this guy called it as instructed..... excellent..
I agree. The refs get blasted a lot, and they deserve credit when they get things right as well.
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  #79  
Old 03-30-17, 06:26 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoban2019 View Post
I honestly don't know the answer to this and am looking to be educated.

Does the rule book speak about "preventative officiating" and warning players who are committing a violation in lieu of calling that violation, whenever a ref sees fit? Depending on time and score?
Go to Post #59 on page 2
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  #80  
Old 03-30-17, 08:56 PM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Just as the rule for traveling is open to judgment. Did he pick up his pivot foot prior to releasing the ball on a dribble?....etc



Ok, to put this to rest, ( hopefully ) ask yourself this question........

Knowing that there is a rule covering this situation, and knowing that the rule is clear........... Why do people complain about the guy who correctly applies the rule?

I know the answer
I actually haven't complained. I do however disagree with the whole Kremer is evil and got what he deserved movement.

Last edited by Kballer; 03-30-17 at 09:07 PM.
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  #81  
Old 03-30-17, 09:01 PM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoban2019 View Post
The reason is that some referees would have made that call, and others would have not. We see it at every level of play. Some refs decide to swallow their whistles at the end of the game, others do not. The fact that refs are inconsistent in their approach is what leads to problems like this. It's obvious that the Moeller coach had gotten away with this in the past and that's why he tried it here.
I think it's like most people feel like if they are going 68 in a 65 zone- yes they are speeding but unlikely to get pulled over even if they get gunned going 3 mph over the speed limit as that just isn't normally done. To not only get pulled over for that but get the heftiest penalty allowed but rarely used would feel like you got screwed, even though it is absolutely within the officers and judges right to do so.
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  #82  
Old 03-30-17, 09:41 PM
Hoban2019 Hoban2019 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
I think it's like most people feel like if they are going 68 in a 65 zone- yes they are speeding but unlikely to get pulled over even if they get gunned going 3 mph over the speed limit as that just isn't normally done. To not only get pulled over for that but get the heftiest penalty allowed but rarely used would feel like you got screwed, even though it is absolutely within the officers and judges right to do so.
I agree 100% with this.
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  #83  
Old 03-30-17, 09:43 PM
Hoban2019 Hoban2019 is offline
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Originally Posted by DB 04 View Post
Hoban2019 is right. <snip>
I'm not sure if I should be happy with this endorsement. It makes me a little uneasy about my position.
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  #84  
Old 03-30-17, 09:51 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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State officials are the best of the best and will officiate the games based on the rules. Refs letting the play go are not doing their job correctly.

Any talk about NBA or college action is irrelevant.
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  #85  
Old 03-30-17, 11:02 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoban2019 View Post
The reason is that some referees would have made that call, and others would have not. We see it at every level of play. Some refs decide to swallow their whistles at the end of the game, others do not.
Don't ask the folks at Elyria about refs swallowing their whistle late in the game....
But NEVER in the OHSAA tournament.
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  #86  
Old 03-31-17, 09:35 AM
Hoban2019 Hoban2019 is offline
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Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
State officials are the best of the best and will officiate the games based on the rules. Refs letting the play go are not doing their job correctly.

Any talk about NBA or college action is irrelevant.
Agreed they are the best of the best. Agreed that letting the play go is not doing job correctly.

However, was the "best of the best" referee following the rules when he let the intentional foul go by without calling it, twice, before calling it the third time?
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  #87  
Old 03-31-17, 09:45 AM
Hoban2019 Hoban2019 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Go to Post #59 on page 2
OK, here it is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
What the official did right there was execute the method of Preventative Officiating. Given the circumstances of the game, (time remaining, score, possession, possession arrow, ball location, etc...) he knew what the opponent was trying to do and he also knew the severity of the penalty. He tried to talk him out of an Intentional Foul. (he barked at him to stop) When he didn't stop, he did what was required by the rule and the Point of Emphasis covering this situation.

Had he sensed that the player being bumped was ready to retaliate on the first bump, he would have jumped all over the whistle and called the Intentional Foul right then and there.

It's a method of officiating that is utilized constantly throughout a game. Sometimes everyone sees it. Sometimes it's a quiet word between official and player and sometimes it's communicated through a captain, assistant coach, or head coach.

Training and experience pays off.
My question was, are the concepts you discuss above stated in the rulebook? Merely because you capitalize Preventative Officiating does not answer that question. It is hard for me to believe that the rulebook states that particular calls should be made with regard to "time remaining, score, possession arrow", etc. But, I am truly ignorant on this topic and am willing to be educated. A link to the rulebook would be ideal.

Let me be clear. I agree with the concepts you mentioned above. And I realize that it is done, quite often, by officials. I believe the referee in the Moe game made the right call. However, it cannot be called "following the rulebook" if the rulebook does not specify that warnings should be given in place of violation calls. That is what I am trying to understand.
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  #88  
Old 03-31-17, 09:52 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoban2019 View Post
Agreed they are the best of the best. Agreed that letting the play go is not doing job correctly.

However, was the "best of the best" referee following the rules when he let the intentional foul go by without calling it, twice, before calling it the third time?
I thought it was great officiating that he gave verbal warnings. They should put that in a instructional video on how to handle that moment. Their job is to ensure the game is played within rules. If the verbal caused the kid to back off and obey rules, great outcome.

End of the day its about playing the game within bounds. Sometimes refs can verbally accomplish it most of the time the wistle has to correct things. Good refs never really want to blow their whistle in a perfect world in my opinion
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  #89  
Old 03-31-17, 09:57 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hoban2019 View Post
OK, here it is:



My question was, are the concepts you discuss above stated in the rulebook?
No. Just like there's nothing in the book that dictates what words directed towards us from a coach and/or a player should result in a technical foul.
Experience and training are where these philosophies are born. Coaches and administrators expect them to be used.

The good ones (officials) have mastered these and know when to and not to employ them.

Last edited by AllSports12; 03-31-17 at 10:40 AM.
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  #90  
Old 03-31-17, 10:23 AM
Hoban2019 Hoban2019 is offline
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Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
I thought it was great officiating that he gave verbal warnings. They should put that in a instructional video on how to handle that moment. Their job is to ensure the game is played within rules. If the verbal caused the kid to back off and obey rules, great outcome.

End of the day its about playing the game within bounds. Sometimes refs can verbally accomplish it most of the time the wistle has to correct things. Good refs never really want to blow their whistle in a perfect world in my opinion
Listen, I am a big fan of the verbal warning. However, if a ref sees a violation but gives a warning instead of calling a foul, I don't know how that can be construed as ensuring the "game is played within rules". By your scenario, a player violated a rule and was given only a warning. It may be the best thing for the game, but it is not "following the rules".

It is semantics, so perhaps worth discussing no further. There is a lot of gray area within the referee's job, and it is no easy task.
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