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  #91  
Old 12-22-15, 08:56 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
No that's not what I am saying. By rule, if the official feels there is potential for injury he must stop the match.
I am not sure what rule you are referring to but my book doesn't include anything that says that.
Yes, our intent is to prevent any injury. That is 100% correct.
However no where does the rule book say that every potentially dangerous situation has to be stopped. We do that quite often but it is not required. The idea is to prevent rather than penalize.
An example might be a chicken wing that looks to be going above 90* to the axis of the body. We stop it because to go farther is likely to involve a penalty. However, there are coaches who think that the potentially dangerous call is automatic. It is not. If we are unable to stop it (for whatever reason), the penalty is called.
Bt definition (and by rule) ALL headlocks are potentially dangerous. Are you saying that we should stop each and every headlock?
Quite often a situation will develop quickly, in a very different direction than is "normal", and it is not possible to stop it in time. There is not an official alive who has not had this happen to him.
Again I stress that our intent is to prevent injury but please don't read things into your interpretations of the rules that simply are not there.
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  #92  
Old 12-22-15, 09:26 AM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
I am not sure what rule you are referring to but my book doesn't include anything that says that.
Yes, our intent is to prevent any injury. That is 100% correct.
However no where does the rule book say that every potentially dangerous situation has to be stopped. We do that quite often but it is not required. The idea is to prevent rather than penalize.
An example might be a chicken wing that looks to be going above 90* to the axis of the body. We stop it because to go farther is likely to involve a penalty. However, there are coaches who think that the potentially dangerous call is automatic. It is not. If we are unable to stop it (for whatever reason), the penalty is called.
Bt definition (and by rule) ALL headlocks are potentially dangerous. Are you saying that we should stop each and every headlock?
Quite often a situation will develop quickly, in a very different direction than is "normal", and it is not possible to stop it in time. There is not an official alive who has not had this happen to him.
Again I stress that our intent is to prevent injury but please don't read things into your interpretations of the rules that simply are not there.
Unless something magical happens between the time I click copy until the time I click paste to the forum, the NFHS book directly states:

"if the official feels there is potential for injury, then the match must be stopped in order to protect the defensive wrestler"

My argument is that too many officials do not react fast enough or do not feel that there is a potential for injury, even when it is imminent. Far too many times wrestlers are taken to the mat when they are defenseless (read my post), I think I was pretty clear.

What are we doing to correct this? I see it continue every weekend and, in my opinion, not enough is being done to keep the wrestlers safe.

Last edited by Whizzer King; 12-22-15 at 09:42 AM.
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  #93  
Old 12-22-15, 09:51 AM
Georg51 Georg51 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
Far too many times wrestlers are taken to the mat when they are defenseless (read my post), I think I was pretty clear.
What are we doing to correct this? I see it continue every weekend and, in my opinion, not enough is being done to keep the wrestlers safe.
The time it takes for an official to recognize a potentially dangerous mat return is longer than the time it takes for the situation to develop and occur, in many cases.

Do you want the official to jump on the mat and cushion the fall? Some of these scenarios happen so fast that it's unreasonable to expect officials to be able to prevent them all.

This is why it's important to teach wrestlers how to defend themselves in the event of a mat return with a trapped wrist/arm. It's even more important to teach wrestlers that when you are returning your opponent to the mat, that you must do so with caution and not slam them, and most importantly do so within the rules.
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  #94  
Old 12-22-15, 09:57 AM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
Unless something magical happens between the time I click copy until the time I click paste to the forum, the NFHS book directly states:

"if the official feels there is potential for injury, then the match must be stopped in order to protect the defensive wrestler"

My argument is that too many officials do not react fast enough or do not feel that there is a potential for injury, even when it is imminent. Far too many times wrestlers are taken to the mat when they are defenseless (read my post), I think I was pretty clear.

What are we doing to correct this? I see it continue every weekend and, in my opinion, not enough is being done to keep the wrestlers safe.
As he pointed out, there is potential for injury in many situations. It's a balancing act of allowing the wrestlers to wrestle, but also trying to do your best to prevent injury. That trapped arm position you showed is now used far more for the rolling tilt than the lift.

I think you may be over reacting a bit in this whole situation.
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  #95  
Old 12-22-15, 10:12 AM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georg51 View Post
Do you want the official to jump on the mat and cushion the fall? Some of these scenarios happen so fast that it's unreasonable to expect officials to be able to prevent them all.
I completely understand this concept Georg51. However, it is not unreasonable for an official to actually be in position to prevent the injury from time to time. I completely agree that scenarios happen very fast and most cannot be prevented.

The following video is a perfect example of one situation where the official did not act fast enough or blow his whistle to stop the action.



Many situations are preventable. Especially when two wrestlers, one being in a controlled position has a trapped (2-on-1) wrist and they are moving in the direction where the bottom wrestler does not have a post (defenseless position). I have seen multiple situations this year (and years past) where the official was terribly out of position and allowed the controlled wrestler to deliberately take the defenseless wrestler to the mat on his head.

I have been to multiple officials meetings and have held an officials card for a number of years (past). This situation has never been addressed in any meeting I was a part of. All I am trying to do is protect our wrestlers, not just mine, but yours as well. A wrestler this past weekend was dropped on his head in the situation I described. They were on their feet for several seconds and the wrestlers were moving in the direction of where the controlled wrestler was defenseless. The official, who was out of position, allowed the action to continue. End result, the kid violently went to the mat on his head and became concussed.
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  #96  
Old 12-22-15, 10:16 AM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georg51 View Post
This is why it's important to teach wrestlers how to defend themselves in the event of a mat return with a trapped wrist/arm. It's even more important to teach wrestlers that when you are returning your opponent to the mat, that you must do so with caution and not slam them, and most importantly do so within the rules.
Completely agree. This position is carefully explained. We discourage any wrestler pulling another kid to the mat where he is defenseless. It is important to keep other wrestlers safe.
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  #97  
Old 12-22-15, 10:18 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
No that's not what I am saying. By rule, if the official feels there is potential for injury he must stop the match. In other words, if it is imminent that the wrestler in control is taking his opponent to the mat where he is defenseless, the official needs to do what ever he can to prevent injury. Currently, too many officials have not done enough to prevent the potential for injury.
Ok. This is the situation I thought you were speaking of. My question is this, at what point do you stop it for PD?
That situation occurs in almost every match. There are multiple ways for each wrestler to score or return to mat wrestling from this position. Could you imagine the heat the official would receive for stopping this?

I feel the only time this should be stopped is when top wrestler does the cross body/heel trip and sling maneuver and even then I've seen the bottom man get an escape because it was done so sloppy.

What you are asking, IMO, is an impossible call to get correct.
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  #98  
Old 12-22-15, 10:32 AM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
As he pointed out, there is potential for injury in many situations. It's a balancing act of allowing the wrestlers to wrestle, but also trying to do your best to prevent injury. That trapped arm position you showed is now used far more for the rolling tilt than the lift.

I think you may be over reacting a bit in this whole situation.
I understand this concept. The problem I have is with the wrestlers that do not know how to come under with the trapped arm and use the roll through tilt. Inexperienced wrestlers resort to pulling the kid to the mat as a mat return rather than attempting to execute a tilt.

Addressing the said situation is not an overreaction. I am trying to prevent injury. Maybe a coach reads this and makes this a point of emphasis in their room?? I certainly know that some coaches are completely unaware of the entire situation and it probably never gets addressed to his kids.

I also do not think it is completely unreasonable for an official to kind of have an understanding of what moves the wrestler is able to execute, much like how a coach tries to grasp the understanding of what an opponent can and doesn't do in a wrestling match. A wrestler that continually tries to drag his opponent down to the mat when he is defenseless is completely different than observing an experienced wrestler (or program) that uses the cross-wrist 2-on-1 to hit a roll through tilt.

Is it a reasonable expectation for a quality official to understand the positions of the wrestlers and the moves they are likely to attempt?
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  #99  
Old 12-22-15, 10:44 AM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Ok. This is the situation I thought you were speaking of. My question is this, at what point do you stop it for PD?
That situation occurs in almost every match. There are multiple ways for each wrestler to score or return to mat wrestling from this position. Could you imagine the heat the official would receive for stopping this?

I feel the only time this should be stopped is when top wrestler does the cross body/heel trip and sling maneuver and even then I've seen the bottom man get an escape because it was done so sloppy.

What you are asking, IMO, is an impossible call to get correct.
I understand the multiple maneuvers that occur from that position. Experienced wrestlers know how to score from the position, inexperienced wrestlers, for the most part, do not. It IS a tough call and the action does happen quickly.

I really think it comes down to knowing the wrestler and his abilities. I see inexperienced wrestlers doing this all the time. Experienced wrestlers and those that are coached up on the position execute maneuvers from the standing 2-on-1/bar arm that is not dangerous at all. It is not very hard to distinguish a wrestler that has no clue what to do in that position, but many times I see bad wrestling ending up in this dangerous position, the referee lets the action continue, then bad things happen.

Maybe it just comes down to identifying the wrestlers that get into this maneuver and appear to not know what the heck to do with it??

I am not insinuating that the position be stopped at once, because it is certainly a position that is coached.
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  #100  
Old 12-22-15, 11:41 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
I understand the multiple maneuvers that occur from that position. Experienced wrestlers know how to score from the position, inexperienced wrestlers, for the most part, do not. It IS a tough call and the action does happen quickly.

I really think it comes down to knowing the wrestler and his abilities. I see inexperienced wrestlers doing this all the time. Experienced wrestlers and those that are coached up on the position execute maneuvers from the standing 2-on-1/bar arm that is not dangerous at all. It is not very hard to distinguish a wrestler that has no clue what to do in that position, but many times I see bad wrestling ending up in this dangerous position, the referee lets the action continue, then bad things happen.

Maybe it just comes down to identifying the wrestlers that get into this maneuver and appear to not know what the heck to do with it??

I am not insinuating that the position be stopped at once, because it is certainly a position that is coached.
I just don't think there is much that can be done other than just stopping it when it gets to that position if you want want to do something about it. I don't think this needs to be done.

My thing is that this position is done hundreds of times in a day and the outcome is probably a safe act 95% of the time or higher. We ask officials to do so much now and I see your point, but now you want the official to show up to a meet and start judging the talent level of kids and apply a rule based on their talent. I see this as a coaching point of emphasis, not an officiating. If the wrestler makes the mistake of using something that he shouldn't, then he should be penalized, much like a slam.
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  #101  
Old 12-22-15, 11:53 AM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
I understand the multiple maneuvers that occur from that position. Experienced wrestlers know how to score from the position, inexperienced wrestlers, for the most part, do not. It IS a tough call and the action does happen quickly.

I really think it comes down to knowing the wrestler and his abilities. I see inexperienced wrestlers doing this all the time. Experienced wrestlers and those that are coached up on the position execute maneuvers from the standing 2-on-1/bar arm that is not dangerous at all. It is not very hard to distinguish a wrestler that has no clue what to do in that position, but many times I see bad wrestling ending up in this dangerous position, the referee lets the action continue, then bad things happen.

Maybe it just comes down to identifying the wrestlers that get into this maneuver and appear to not know what the heck to do with it??

I am not insinuating that the position be stopped at once, because it is certainly a position that is coached.
You can't start making positions PD for some people and acceptable for others based on how you perceive their knowledge of the position to be. There is nothing that can be done about it. Some people will get hurt from time to time, it's part of the sport and it happens. Over legislating things never ends well for anyone.
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  #102  
Old 12-22-15, 12:02 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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We actually went over this situation at our last official's meeting.
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  #103  
Old 12-22-15, 12:10 PM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Originally Posted by wjjsj View Post
We actually went over this situation at our last official's meeting.
Regardless of what was discussed and what the outcome was, at least it was addressed
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  #104  
Old 12-22-15, 12:32 PM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
There is nothing that can be done about it. Some people will get hurt from time to time, it's part of the sport and it happens. Over legislating things never ends well for anyone.
Obviously, if it is addressed in the NFHS wrestling rule book, it is something of a concern. Saying that there is nothing that can be done about it doesn't make much sense.
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  #105  
Old 12-22-15, 12:40 PM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Could you imagine the heat the official would receive for stopping this?
Can you imagine the heat an official would take for not stopping a maneuver that injured a wrestler? I would think this would be more of a concern for officials.
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  #106  
Old 12-22-15, 01:14 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
Obviously, if it is addressed in the NFHS wrestling rule book, it is something of a concern. Saying that there is nothing that can be done about it doesn't make much sense.
If the official feels there is potential for injury, then the match must be stopped to protect the defensive wrestler

Something has been done about this position, see the bold section above, the ref can stop it if he thinks it's dangerous. What are you looking for?

Last edited by Suplexer130; 12-22-15 at 02:01 PM.
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  #107  
Old 12-22-15, 02:13 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
Can you imagine the heat an official would take for not stopping a maneuver that injured a wrestler? I would think this would be more of a concern for officials.
You're asking for too much. Plain and simple. Anytime a head lock is used, there is potential for an injury to occur. Anytime the feet leave the mat, there is potential for an injury occur. This is the same type of situation. If the wrestler is returned in a dangerous fashion, then a UNR penalty should be called if it can't be stopped beforehand. This situation has too many outcomes for it to be stopped like you suggest.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on this because there is some concern with this situation, especially at the Jr. High and youth levels where there are more kids who are unaware of what they are doing, but I just don't see anything you've said to justify changing how this is currently officiated.
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  #108  
Old 12-22-15, 02:37 PM
dion dion is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
You can't start making positions PD for some people and acceptable for others based on how you perceive their knowledge of the position to be. There is nothing that can be done about it. Some people will get hurt from time to time, it's part of the sport and it happens. Over legislating things never ends well for anyone.
Disagree! Just as m.s. wrestlers should receive a little more latitude relative to issues like clasping and cautions, more caution should be applied concerning potentially dangerous situations.
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  #109  
Old 12-22-15, 02:44 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Originally Posted by dion View Post
Disagree! Just as m.s. wrestlers should receive a little more latitude relative to issues like clasping and cautions, more caution should be applied concerning potentially dangerous situations.
We are talking about high school wrestlers here. If two guys are wrestling in a varsity match, the rules can not be different for one wrestler than they are for another because one appears to be more skilled.
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  #110  
Old 12-22-15, 03:35 PM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
You're asking for too much. Plain and simple. Anytime a head lock is used, there is potential for an injury to occur. Anytime the feet leave the mat, there is potential for an injury occur. This is the same type of situation. If the wrestler is returned in a dangerous fashion, then a UNR penalty should be called if it can't be stopped beforehand. This situation has too many outcomes for it to be stopped like you suggest.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt on this because there is some concern with this situation, especially at the Jr. High and youth levels where there are more kids who are unaware of what they are doing, but I just don't see anything you've said to justify changing how this is currently officiated.
I am not asking for a change in interpretation. There is a reasonable expectation to keep the wrestlers safe. In no way am not asking that the position be removed from wrestling. I am asking that people be a little bit mindful of the situation I simply think there are many situations where the official does nothing and lets imminent danger to occur.

Basically, what some of you are insinuating is that I have not been involved in a match where the official couldnt do anything. It happened to 2 of our wrestlers last weekend where the contestants came to their feet in the aforementioned position. The wrestler in control continued to pull the wrestler to the mat while his arm was trapped. This occurrd several times in the same match. There was plenty of time to not only recognize what was about to happen, but stop the match. A week ago a wrestler was slammed on his head in an obvious potentially dangerous situation that was overlooked and could have been prevented... Heck it wasn't even called a slam. The kid was knocked out and then pinned. Watch the video i posted.
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  #111  
Old 12-22-15, 04:38 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Interesting statements.

"However, it is not unreasonable for an official to actually be in position to prevent the injury from time to time."

"I completely agree that scenarios happen very fast and most cannot be prevented."
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  #112  
Old 12-22-15, 05:49 PM
dion dion is offline
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Originally Posted by Suplexer130 View Post
We are talking about high school wrestlers here. If two guys are wrestling in a varsity match, the rules can not be different for one wrestler than they are for another because one appears to be more skilled.
Correct! But, I was only responding to your statement.
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  #113  
Old 01-07-16, 07:46 PM
Cakes Cakes is offline
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Question...if a wrestler makes scratch on day 1 of a 2 day tourney (in January) does this wrestler get +3 for the 2nd day weigh-ins?
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  #114  
Old 01-07-16, 10:17 PM
dion dion is offline
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Question...if a wrestler makes scratch on day 1 of a 2 day tourney (in January) does this wrestler get +3 for the 2nd day weigh-ins?
Yes!!!!!
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  #115  
Old 01-11-16, 03:32 PM
Georg51 Georg51 is offline
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Originally Posted by Whizzer King View Post
Many officials do not stop the match quickly enough when there is an imminent dangerous situation. It has appeared for quite some time, that the majority "waits" to see what happens... Then it is too late.

Too many times, wrestlers are taken to the mat when they do not have a way to defend themselves from going to the mat (i.e. they do not have a post). you see this a lot when the wrestler in control has a trapped wrist (2-on-1) and they take the wrestler to the mat on their head. I understand that this is a hard position to prevent injury, however, in the 5 events that our wrestlers have been in, I have seen this situation occur at least a dozen times and only once was an official quick to stop the action because the bottom wrestler was starting to go to the mat without a post. This should be called potentially dangerous immediately. I do understand that this is hard to stop, but I don't think we are doing a very good job preventing the situation. I also believe that coaches should eliminate this practice in their own wrestling room and make their wrestlers aware of the danger it poses.

With new concussion protocols it is too easy to lose a kid for an extended period of time, not to mention that the kid could seriously become injured.

This needs immediate attention for our officials. As a whole, they are not doing a good enough job of preventing imminent danger to the wrestlers. I am seeing this happen way too much.

THIS NEEDS TO BE A POINT OF EMPHASIS!

Something I want you to see, and tell me if you think the Ref had sufficient time to stop a very dangerous mat return. (Note: I don't think this is an illegal slam, but definitely potential dangerous)

39:10 Minute mark

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  #116  
Old 01-11-16, 04:24 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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First, there is no such animal as a "legal" slam so saying "illegal slam" is redundant.
Second, to answer your direct question, I do not think the official had to the time to stop this prior to the move. It is extremely hard to predict what the wrestler might do since they have no idea as to what to do next. Making a potentially dangerous call in this situation would be next to impossible.
Third, if you don't think that meets the definition of a slam, your rule book must read a lot different than mine. There was zero control by the wrestler who lifted and returned his opponent to the mat.
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  #117  
Old 01-11-16, 05:45 PM
Blast82.5 Blast82.5 is offline
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I'm not a ref ... but I disagree ... here's my rationale, and I'd like to know if any of this is correct, or even considered in these situations.

I think the offensive wrestler had moderate control. The defensive wrestler failed to do anything to protect himself. Is there NO requirement that the defensive wrestler make ANY attempt to prevent landing in such an awkward (and dangerous) position?

What if a guy hits a blast double-leg, and the defensive wrestler attempts to leap over the back of the offensive wrestler to grab an ankle, and gets slammed on his back. Is that illegal? He could have fought the TD 10 different ways (or conceded it), but chose a way that was dangerous and that the offensive wrestler could not have reacted to quickly enough to execute a "safe return" to the mat. Is that on the offensive wrestler?

I guess I'm asking if an awkward / dangerous landing, in and of itself, defines a slam? Can a defensive wrestler cause a slam by failing to take any evasive / defensive action whatsoever?
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  #118  
Old 01-11-16, 07:52 PM
Georg51 Georg51 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
if you don't think that meets the definition of a slam, your rule book must read a lot different than mine. There was zero control by the wrestler who lifted and returned his opponent to the mat.
I think it's a grey area. You can tell that both officials in the video let it go through the pin, and didn't react in a way that made you think that they saw it as a slam either.

It can be considered a slam because the offensive wrestler essentially drops the other kid on his head. Real dangerous, which is why I said I thought potential dangerous should have been called as soon as he hit the mat.
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  #119  
Old 01-11-16, 09:54 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast82.5 View Post
I'm not a ref ... but I disagree ... here's my rationale, and I'd like to know if any of this is correct, or even considered in these situations.

I think the offensive wrestler had moderate control. The defensive wrestler failed to do anything to protect himself. Is there NO requirement that the defensive wrestler make ANY attempt to prevent landing in such an awkward (and dangerous) position?

What if a guy hits a blast double-leg, and the defensive wrestler attempts to leap over the back of the offensive wrestler to grab an ankle, and gets slammed on his back. Is that illegal? He could have fought the TD 10 different ways (or conceded it), but chose a way that was dangerous and that the offensive wrestler could not have reacted to quickly enough to execute a "safe return" to the mat. Is that on the offensive wrestler?

I guess I'm asking if an awkward / dangerous landing, in and of itself, defines a slam? Can a defensive wrestler cause a slam by failing to take any evasive / defensive action whatsoever?
You are correct in that there is NO requirement that the defending wrestler try to defend himself. They generally do try of course but there is no requirement as such.

As I tell kids in the pre-meet talk, if you take your opponent off the mat you are responsible for his safe return. There are no exceptions.

Think about the idea that the defensive wrestler twists in mid-air to avoid coming to the mat hard and in the process he breaks his arm in breaking the fall. The move might not have been a slam but the kid is still injured and out of the match. What if it is your kid?

No, an awkward landing defines nothing. I feel very safe in saying that a defending wrestler can not cause a slam by failing to take any action.
Again, if you take the opponent off the mat, you are responsible for his safe return.

Also keep in mind that an official does not have the advantage of slo-mo or replay. The rules say that a slam must be called without hesitation.
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  #120  
Old 01-11-16, 10:01 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georg51 View Post
I think it's a grey area. You can tell that both officials in the video let it go through the pin, and didn't react in a way that made you think that they saw it as a slam either.

It can be considered a slam because the offensive wrestler essentially drops the other kid on his head. Real dangerous, which is why I said I thought potential dangerous should have been called as soon as he hit the mat.
I suppose different people have differing opinions. In my view, this was a slam 100% of the time. The officials did not call it but that does not mean that the "non-call" was correct. Sometimes officials freeze and don't know what to do or their view was different than what a replay shows.
Would it be a slam if it was your kid on the receiving end?

A potentially dangerous call is made PRIOR to the action which might become illegal. After the fact, that would be a pointless call.
As a thought, when would a PD call be made?
After the mat return?
After the pin?
When?
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