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  #31  
Old 02-18-15, 06:57 PM
Suplexer130 Suplexer130 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobPreusse View Post
"Seems to solve a stalling issue but creates a different problem, doesn't it?"

JimB, not for me, top guy still gets 30 seconds, the better ones will learn to use that time to aggresively go for back points. The bottom guy can just lay there and fight it off for 30 seconds or he can try to score himself. Either way it eliminates much of the boring riding. U must use top or lose it.

And then this miserable, tired, worn out, never resolved old topic will not come up again.
Refs should love it. ...s/BobP
You will have successfully killed mat wrestling which is cutting off the nose to spite the face. If there is no stalling just a 30 second clock bottom guys will lay flat on the mat (or ball up)and even the best folk style top guys won't turn guys doing that. The reason it works in freestyle is because you don't need a controled turn you just need to create exposure.
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  #32  
Old 02-18-15, 08:17 PM
BobPreusse BobPreusse is offline
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u dont think the guy on bottom will ever try to escape? depending on score & time he may have to go for that escape point or a reversal. After 30 seconds action would be back on their feet where many like it to be.

seems like no one likes refs somewhat subjective stalling calls in top/bottom-- i'm just throwing out ideas for discussion. If u have another option present it for discussion, perhaps u have a better idea.
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  #33  
Old 02-18-15, 08:49 PM
chinemback chinemback is offline
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Would be nice to see an Offseason open tournament or two implement Bob Preusse 's idea. I recall a folkstyle open a couple years ago that used the "push out" rule. It forced wrestlers to stay aggressive and work in the circle.
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  #34  
Old 02-18-15, 09:47 PM
BobPreusse BobPreusse is offline
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to further clarify, in my scenario top man must turn & CONTROL within 30 seconds, not just turn/expose. Then if he cant both go onto their feet. Thus no stalemates, no stalling calls anymore in top/bottom position.
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  #35  
Old 02-18-15, 09:48 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobPreusse View Post
"Seems to solve a stalling issue but creates a different problem, doesn't it?"

JimB, not for me, top guy still gets 30 seconds, the better ones will learn to use that time to aggresively go for back points. The bottom guy can just lay there and fight it off for 30 seconds or he can try to score himself. Either way it eliminates much of the boring riding. U must use top or lose it.

And then this miserable, tired, worn out, never resolved old topic will not come up again.
Refs should love it. ...s/BobP
Bob,
You know me. I have zero problems with it. I will do whatever they want us to do. I was merely pointing out that there is a flip side.
BTW, I was never one of those who thinks that our job is to prepare guys for wrestling in college. However, some folks do think that way.
If the rules people like an idea like this, I am good with it.
Jim
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  #36  
Old 02-19-15, 09:09 AM
Georg51 Georg51 is offline
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I guess my real question, stemming from the situation I described, is to ask: What is the exact criteria which officials are instructed to issue stalling calls (particularly toward mat wrestling)?
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  #37  
Old 02-19-15, 10:21 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Both wrestlers are supposed to be working to improve. Top man should be working for a turn and bottom man looking to escape or reversal.

With that said keep in mind the top man is called the offensive wrestler and the bottom man is called the defensive wrestler.

I will add that I've probably hit the bottom man for stalling 3-1 compared to the top man.
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  #38  
Old 02-19-15, 10:38 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georg51 View Post
What is the exact criteria which officials are instructed to issue stalling calls (particularly toward mat wrestling)?
Exact criteria?? Good luck with that. There is no such beast. The rule book spells out situations and things to look for but no rule book could ever cover all possible situations. Additionally, I have never been "instructed" as to when to issue a call.
Stalling is always a judgement call. Might be right or it might be wrong but that depends which side of the fence you are on.
There are so many factors that go into any call that it would be impossible to describe them in a forum. There are a lot of thoughts that occur prior to any call being made.
However I will add something that many people don't consider and that is that to not make a decision is to make a decision. IOW, by deciding not to make a call is to make a call. Just that no one knows about the call that wasn't made.
I hope that makes sense even if it didn't give you the clarity that I am sure you want.
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  #39  
Old 02-19-15, 10:43 AM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georg51 View Post
I guess my real question, stemming from the situation I described, is to ask: What is the exact criteria which officials are instructed to issue stalling calls (particularly toward mat wrestling)?
Read pages 15-17....

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/...sMechanics.pdf

...this should be a MUST READ for everyone prior to Sectional and Districts when the stalling boo-birds come out.

Key things to look for On Top:

* Watch for parallel riding (riding hips) w/o an attempt to break down the opponent.

* Watch for parallel riding with opponent broken down on the mat with no attempt to get perpendicular to work for fall or near fall.

Bottom Line: Riding parallel, legs wrapped (or not), on the hips looking like you are trying to work a power half will not cut it.
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  #40  
Old 02-19-15, 11:20 AM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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I tend to agree with Refman that stalling is actually an easy call. Sometimes the situation makes it seem tougher than it really is. Meaning the intensity, late match drama, etc.

I can say straight up that I do not want to make that stall call that ties it up or gives one wrestler the lead over the other. However, I have no fear in making it and will call it without hesitation if the situation calls for it.

I will add that I do a ton of preventive officiating in those crazy late match situations that usually keeps me from having to make that call.
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  #41  
Old 02-19-15, 03:00 PM
Georg51 Georg51 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
Key things to look for On Top:

* Watch for parallel riding (riding hips) w/o an attempt to break down the opponent.

* Watch for parallel riding with opponent broken down on the mat with no attempt to get perpendicular to work for fall or near fall.

Bottom Line: Riding parallel, legs wrapped (or not), on the hips looking like you are trying to work a power half will not cut it.
This is exactly how I coach my wrestlers as well. I'm often telling them to transition and when the opponent is broken down, to move off the hips and try to turn.

I've seen a lot of wrestlers this year 'skirting' this by doing an ankle ride (leg wrapped over ankle, hips off to the side) and for the most part I've seen officials allowing the top man to just ride on the leg for an entire period without showing signs of giving stalling.

I understand the whole topic is very dynamic, relative to the particular situation on the mat. I'm really just interested in what officials are instructed to look for in determining whether to make the call or not.

Thanks for the link, it provided a lot of help.
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  #42  
Old 02-21-15, 10:33 AM
TeamVisionWrestling TeamVisionWrestling is offline
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Certifying at Weights

Alright, I'll do my best to describe the situation and what I interpret the rule to be.

If a wrestler certifies and makes scratch 145. But then weigh ins at 152 and bumps to 160 in a dual. Are they still 145 eligible?

The way it was explained to me was (by many refs and other coaches), once you make scratch at your eligible weight class, the most you can wrestle over it is one weight class or you forfeit the ability to wrestle in the post season at that weight class.

The post season is coming up and we have seen a ton of wrestlers in the state duals wrestle two weight classes higher than they are going to be wrestling in the post season. There was a case last year where Team A called Team B out on the exact circumstance and Team B had to forfeit in the Semi-Finals of their League tournament because they were deemed ineligible.

Thanks Refs! And sorry if the way I explained it was confusing - did the best I can.
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  #43  
Old 02-21-15, 08:39 PM
suplex21 suplex21 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamVisionWrestling View Post
Alright, I'll do my best to describe the situation and what I interpret the rule to be.

If a wrestler certifies and makes scratch 145. But then weigh ins at 152 and bumps to 160 in a dual. Are they still 145 eligible?

The way it was explained to me was (by many refs and other coaches), once you make scratch at your eligible weight class, the most you can wrestle over it is one weight class or you forfeit the ability to wrestle in the post season at that weight class.

The post season is coming up and we have seen a ton of wrestlers in the state duals wrestle two weight classes higher than they are going to be wrestling in the post season. There was a case last year where Team A called Team B out on the exact circumstance and Team B had to forfeit in the Semi-Finals of their League tournament because they were deemed ineligible.

Thanks Refs! And sorry if the way I explained it was confusing - did the best I can.
This is just false.
your example is fine.

Talking about lowest allowable weights. You can weigh in one weight above your weight still maintain your lawc. Bumping one weight class does not affect lawc. If a team was dad based on that someone messed up. My guess is thefe is more to this story.
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  #44  
Old 02-21-15, 08:52 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamVisionWrestling View Post
Alright, I'll do my best to describe the situation and what I interpret the rule to be.

If a wrestler certifies and makes scratch 145. But then weigh ins at 152 and bumps to 160 in a dual. Are they still 145 eligible?

The way it was explained to me was (by many refs and other coaches), once you make scratch at your eligible weight class, the most you can wrestle over it is one weight class or you forfeit the ability to wrestle in the post season at that weight class.

The post season is coming up and we have seen a ton of wrestlers in the state duals wrestle two weight classes higher than they are going to be wrestling in the post season. There was a case last year where Team A called Team B out on the exact circumstance and Team B had to forfeit in the Semi-Finals of their League tournament because they were deemed ineligible.

Thanks Refs! And sorry if the way I explained it was confusing - did the best I can.
I know it will come across as a cop out but this is one of the reasons that I don't answer questions like this. Instead I always tell the person to call one of the State Rules Interpreters or to call the OHSAA office. This way they get (hopefully) the most correct info possible. Like the question above, this is an administrative matter and is not within the responsibilities of a mat official. My thoughts on a matter like this mean absolutely nothing. IMO, this would be true of all mat officials.
Don't get yourself into a corner, contact the people who make (and more importantly enforce) the rules.
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  #45  
Old 02-23-15, 01:00 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
However I will add something that many people don't consider and that is that to not make a decision is to make a decision. IOW, by deciding not to make a call is to make a call. Just that no one knows about the call that wasn't made.
Queue the Geddy Lee:

"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
"

Totally agree with you Jim. And Geddy too....
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  #46  
Old 02-23-15, 07:58 PM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamVisionWrestling View Post
Alright, I'll do my best to describe the situation and what I interpret the rule to be.

If a wrestler certifies and makes scratch 145. But then weigh ins at 152 and bumps to 160 in a dual. Are they still 145 eligible?

The way it was explained to me was (by many refs and other coaches), once you make scratch at your eligible weight class, the most you can wrestle over it is one weight class or you forfeit the ability to wrestle in the post season at that weight class.

The post season is coming up and we have seen a ton of wrestlers in the state duals wrestle two weight classes higher than they are going to be wrestling in the post season. There was a case last year where Team A called Team B out on the exact circumstance and Team B had to forfeit in the Semi-Finals of their League tournament because they were deemed ineligible.

Thanks Refs! And sorry if the way I explained it was confusing - did the best I can.
http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthre...ht+eligibility

Certify... I dont use that term anymore. Its time to get away from that notion.
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  #47  
Old 02-24-15, 12:31 PM
Whizzer King Whizzer King is offline
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WEIGHT CLASS ELIGIBILITY EXAMPLES
On any given date a wrestler may not weigh in more than one weight
class above his/her lowest allowable weight as defined by the weekly
Alpha Master report timeline. Any wrestler who does weigh in and
competes more than one weight class above the lowest allowable weight then 12
vacates that lowest weight and a new lowest weight will be established.
Growth allowance and other allowances may not be utilized to achieve a lower
weight class for a wrestler. For simplicity, all examples are listed without
growth allowance.
1. A wrestler has reached his/her lowest minimum weight of 106. On the day
of competition, he/she weighs in at 116.5. This is more than one weight
class above the lowest minimum weight of 106. If the wrestler then
competes, he/she must therefore surrender 106 as the LMW and 113
becomes the new minimum weight for that wrestler.
2. a. A wrestler with a lowest minimum weight of 126 is descending
toward his/her lowest minimum weight, but has yet to reach the
lowest minimum weight, and weighs in for competition. In
compliance with his/her timeline the wrestler weighs in at 131.1
(making him/her eligible at 132 and 138) and wrestles at 138.
The wrestler still retains the opportunity to continue to descend
toward the lowest minimum weight of 126 as he/she did not
weigh in more than one weight class above his/her lowest
actual weight.
b. Two weeks later, the same wrestler in example 2a, who has
passed the date in his/her timeline to reach his/her minimum of
126, weighs in at 133 making him/her eligible for the 138 and
145 pound weight classes. If that wrestler competes, he/she
must now surrender his/her LMW of 126 and 132 becomes the
wrestler’s new minimum weight.
2. A 129.3 pound LMW wrestler weighs in at 129.6 pounds, legally wrestling
several times at 132 and 138 pounds. Later in December his/her actual
weigh-in weight is recorded at 138.1 pounds making him/her eligible for
the 145 and 152 pound weight classes. This requires that he/she
surrenders the 132 pound weight class, establishing the new minimum
weight class of 138.
A wrestler is NOT eligible for a lower weight class because of any additional
pound allowances.
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  #48  
Old 03-01-15, 10:17 AM
spider34 spider34 is offline
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biting question

At our sectional a wrestler went to the score table to report he had been biten 2 times. This was immediately after the match, before signing the bout sheet. The ref said he couldn't do anything about it. The kid had to say something during the match.
My son had to wrestle the kid that did the biting the next day. We told him if he was biten during the match to stop and show the ref. He did, ref glanced at it and told him to get to the line. Isn't it an automatic DQ, for biting?
We went to the AD at the tournament and plead our case, he told us it was a judgment call by the ref. Nothing we could do other than file an appeal to the district.
Any suggestions on what to do now?
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  #49  
Old 03-01-15, 10:33 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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I will tell you that in 30+ years of officiating, I have had only 3 biters and all of them were obvious RIGHT now. It is rare enough that I can remember the match and the details. The wrestler who was bitten jumped up immediately just as you would expect because it hurts.
You look at the affected body part and there must be upper and lower imprints.
A hard cross face could lead to the this but, in my experience, it only leads to an upper OR a lower teeth imprint, not both. This is primarily because of the direction of the force applied.
Is this "bite" in a place where the wrestler could have done it to himself? If not, the official had to have witnessed the bite. For example I can bit my own arm but I can't bite my own butt. It is not physically possible.
If the official witnessed the "bite", flagrant misconduct is the call and the next two weeks (or so) are cleared off the wrestlers schedule.
I would highly doubt that you have any options. It had to be dealt with at that time. It sounds like the official looked at the situation at the time and decided that the conditions above were not met.
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  #50  
Old 03-01-15, 10:44 AM
spider34 spider34 is offline
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The 1st kids were on his back, and my kids was under his arm pit, on his rib cage. Neither one could have been done to themselves. Just a bad situation, when the ref didn't take the time to look. And we have it on video. As well. Didn't think anything would be done after the match was over. Only would like the district to be aware of this kid doing this. Many parents also said he was known for this as well.
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  #51  
Old 03-01-15, 11:20 AM
Magda411 Magda411 is offline
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throws/takedowns

what is considered an illegal "throw" takedown? Was at sectional yesterday and saw kid raised over opponents head and essentially pile drived. Hope this ends up in correct spot.
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  #52  
Old 03-01-15, 01:00 PM
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Refman Refman is offline
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Any move could be deemed UNR...its all about the force in the return.
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  #53  
Old 03-01-15, 03:38 PM
Magda411 Magda411 is offline
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throws

There was definite force involved. The kid was down for several minutes and eventually forfeited the match. Not used to seeing that in folk wrestling.
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  #54  
Old 03-01-15, 03:46 PM
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Anytime they bounce....that ain't good
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  #55  
Old 03-02-15, 11:33 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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I don't know anything about these two kids other than it was the 113 Lb sectional finals and a buddy sent it to me.

Around 2 minutes left in the video what looks like a suplex after the one kid tries a head and arm throw (stupid). Should it have been an illegal slam?

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  #56  
Old 03-02-15, 11:54 PM
Dad4Sports Dad4Sports is offline
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I'm no ref...looked illegal to me though
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  #57  
Old 03-03-15, 09:46 AM
ken.justice ken.justice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Refman View Post
Anytime they bounce....that ain't good
Refman, I just realized, I was sitting behind you for most of the day last Saturday. It even crossed my mind when you handed me the officiating announcement, but, I thought, nah, couldn't be Refman...
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  #58  
Old 03-03-15, 03:26 PM
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Lol...that was me
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  #59  
Old 03-03-15, 03:37 PM
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A full, straight-back suplay and the straight-back salto to the head are illegal.
A suplay from the side is legal per se...if its not UNR.
Can't comment on the clip as I wasnt there. That referee is a good guy and knows his stuff.
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  #60  
Old 03-03-15, 03:44 PM
Magda411 Magda411 is offline
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Thanks for some clarification. The incident I witnessed involved 132lb.
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