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  #121  
Old 04-07-17, 07:26 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
No offense LE was not that good. It was not like they ran roughshod over the whole tournament and blew teams out. In fact Malvern had them beat. They missed a baseline layup and two or three tip ins at the buzzer in regulation that would have knocked off LE. They ended up losing in OT.
Irrelevant whether they were good or not. The way the team was put together, again, was a mockery of the system. Period. This practice can continue into the future to create all star teams that will dominate. Sad.
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  #122  
Old 04-13-17, 07:04 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
Irrelevant whether they were good or not. The way the team was put together, again, was a mockery of the system. Period. This practice can continue into the future to create all star teams that will dominate. Sad.
It's completely relevant. Had they not made the tourney run, you wouldn't be this mad about it.
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  #123  
Old 04-13-17, 11:24 AM
trojandave trojandave is offline
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AAU definitely has a huge impact on kids getting their foot in the college scholarship door. I do know for a fact, though, that Kyre Allison of Portsmouth is playing at Marshall University not only for his AAU affiliation, but also because there were MU coaches who came to a good number of Portsmouth home games. I don't really know which carries more weight, but coaches do go to HS games as part of their evaluation process.
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  #124  
Old 04-13-17, 01:17 PM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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I think AAU is simultaneously corrupt and serves a good purpose.

You have to separate the top of the AAU food chain from what is below it. Below it is some really good people who are trying to get kids into DII and III situations that will help them get an education. On the top of it, I am really uncomfortable with what AAU does. It is about the individual player getting a major DI scholarship to a major program, and there are all kinds of seedy aspects to how that gets done. I have sensed a "meat market" and a "me-first" mentality in it, and I think some of the seedier aspects of it affect HS programs that attract/recruit those players onto their teams.

You get players with a ton of talent accumulating on a particular HS team, and that talent can help them be very successful in HS where they usually have a talent advantage, but when they get to big time college ball, they may experience problems with not having their off-the-court-issues ignored and realizing that the playing field gets evened out in terms of talent.

Top 10-20 HS AAU talent usually do pretty well in college, and many of them make an appearance at least in the pros, but a handful don't make it at either level, and those kids just outside of that elite group are given the impression that they can make it big through their AAU experiences and through playing with other high level AAU players on a HS team, but many of them don't, and are victims of false impressions.

To the degree that AAU prepares top level kids to go to college for at least a year and then to the NBA, that has to be considered a success. To the degree that AAU allows kids an opportunity to earn a degree, then that also has to be considered a success. But to the degree that AAU encourages kids to think they are going to be able to make a great living at playing basketball without a degree, then that is a major failure. I think there are many more kids in the failure category than the success category, but the successes are pretty spectacular.

But my gut tells me that AAU is a net negative in HS sports because of the attitudes it tends to create, and the competitive imbalance it causes, when summer teammates want to be winter teammates.
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  #125  
Old 04-13-17, 03:27 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
I think AAU is simultaneously corrupt and serves a good purpose.

You have to separate the top of the AAU food chain from what is below it. Below it is some really good people who are trying to get kids into DII and III situations that will help them get an education. On the top of it, I am really uncomfortable with what AAU does. It is about the individual player getting a major DI scholarship to a major program, and there are all kinds of seedy aspects to how that gets done. I have sensed a "meat market" and a "me-first" mentality in it, and I think some of the seedier aspects of it affect HS programs that attract/recruit those players onto their teams.

You get players with a ton of talent accumulating on a particular HS team, and that talent can help them be very successful in HS where they usually have a talent advantage, but when they get to big time college ball, they may experience problems with not having their off-the-court-issues ignored and realizing that the playing field gets evened out in terms of talent.

Top 10-20 HS AAU talent usually do pretty well in college, and many of them make an appearance at least in the pros, but a handful don't make it at either level, and those kids just outside of that elite group are given the impression that they can make it big through their AAU experiences and through playing with other high level AAU players on a HS team, but many of them don't, and are victims of false impressions.

To the degree that AAU prepares top level kids to go to college for at least a year and then to the NBA, that has to be considered a success. To the degree that AAU allows kids an opportunity to earn a degree, then that also has to be considered a success. But to the degree that AAU encourages kids to think they are going to be able to make a great living at playing basketball without a degree, then that is a major failure. I think there are many more kids in the failure category than the success category, but the successes are pretty spectacular.

But my gut tells me that AAU is a net negative in HS sports because of the attitudes it tends to create, and the competitive imbalance it causes, when summer teammates want to be winter teammates.
We have made where summer teammates (kids) wanting to become winter teammates (those same kids) and we want to limit that for whatever reasons that are constantly named & that isn't great either. I said it before, this is a time where families have more options than ever educationally, why limit that in sports? It's usually a divide not between country vs urban/suburban.... not public vs private. It often becomes seasonal athletes vs mostly year round guys.
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  #126  
Old 04-20-17, 12:49 PM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
We have made where summer teammates (kids) wanting to become winter teammates (those same kids) and we want to limit that for whatever reasons that are constantly named & that isn't great either. I said it before, this is a time where families have more options than ever educationally, why limit that in sports? It's usually a divide not between country vs urban/suburban.... not public vs private. It often becomes seasonal athletes vs mostly year round guys.
I agree with you that it is more of a rural/urban situation.

Where you went wrong is that I'm not for keeping summer teammates from being winter teammates. Heck, if 10 players from the same elite AAU team want to enroll at St. Weball, then God bless them. I want them to be able to do that. However, I just want St Weball to play for a Division I championship, not a Division III or IV championship. That's the part of this you missed.
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  #127  
Old 04-20-17, 09:10 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
I agree with you that it is more of a rural/urban situation.

Where you went wrong is that I'm not for keeping summer teammates from being winter teammates. Heck, if 10 players from the same elite AAU team want to enroll at St. Weball, then God bless them. I want them to be able to do that. However, I just want St Weball to play for a Division I championship, not a Division III or IV championship. That's the part of this you missed.
The greatest basketball player walking the earth right now took this approach, and it wasn't that the division 3 tournament field appeared favorable to run rough shod, but that the group would play early.... other members of the state championship team would've been held to sub-varsity teams. It's fine the way it is, and really in the St V situation 1999-2003 what would've moved them up? They enrolled as freshman (except Travis) stayed all 4 years, all lived within a section of a city, so you'd want them moved up because they are talented group?

This is an ugly scent for the OHSAA and the people that make up member schools. I think eligibility should mirror that of the NCAA it cannot and is not established until day 1 of the 9th grade. As long as coaching staffs or schools aren't arranging good players to team with other good players (& it's left to families) I'm ok with it. This ordeal has HEAVY racial undertones. What I respect about the best basketball program in your league, they play or have played during championship yrs, any and all comers & were fairly successful. You'll point to 1 kid, who wasn't happy with the commitment level of his original school, so went to a place that took the game as seriously as he did. I don't think that there's a wide gap a lot of times but it's level of commitment which could mean a lot of things that often separates.
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  #128  
Old 04-21-17, 09:58 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
The greatest basketball player walking the earth right now took this approach, and it wasn't that the division 3 tournament field appeared favorable to run rough shod, but that the group would play early.... other members of the state championship team would've been held to sub-varsity teams. It's fine the way it is, and really in the St V situation 1999-2003 what would've moved them up? They enrolled as freshman (except Travis) stayed all 4 years, all lived within a section of a city, so you'd want them moved up because they are talented group?
Is this how team transfer, Lutheran East did it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
This is an ugly scent for the OHSAA and the people that make up member schools.
Well, you are obviously completely biased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
This ordeal has HEAVY racial undertones.
Strawman!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
I don't think that there's a wide gap a lot of times but it's level of commitment which could mean a lot of things that often separates.
Right. It's about athletes, not commitment in most cases. Stop while you're behind.
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  #129  
Old 04-24-17, 10:17 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
The greatest basketball player walking the earth right now took this approach, and it wasn't that the division 3 tournament field appeared favorable to run rough shod, but that the group would play early.... other members of the state championship team would've been held to sub-varsity teams. It's fine the way it is, and really in the St V situation 1999-2003 what would've moved them up? They enrolled as freshman (except Travis) stayed all 4 years, all lived within a section of a city, so you'd want them moved up because they are talented group?

This is an ugly scent for the OHSAA and the people that make up member schools. I think eligibility should mirror that of the NCAA it cannot and is not established until day 1 of the 9th grade. As long as coaching staffs or schools aren't arranging good players to team with other good players (& it's left to families) I'm ok with it. This ordeal has HEAVY racial undertones. What I respect about the best basketball program in your league, they play or have played during championship yrs, any and all comers & were fairly successful. You'll point to 1 kid, who wasn't happy with the commitment level of his original school, so went to a place that took the game as seriously as he did. I don't think that there's a wide gap a lot of times but it's level of commitment which could mean a lot of things that often separates.
Well, the SVSM situation with Lebron, if you are accurate (I don't know, and don't really care; I'll assume you are right) wouldn't affect the competitive balance approach the OHSAA is taking. When that team congregated wouldn't have been a factor, but where they came from (in relation to the public school boundaries SVSM is in) is what would have mattered.

And this is why I say that it doesn't matter how MANY transfers you get, only the quality of those transfers and the quality of the team they are transferring to. Lebron could have transferred to the worst team in the state, and they would have become final four contenders. Lol.

I agree with the idea that as long as HS coaches/admins aren't orchestrating who plays where, offering incentives, etc. that it's fine for players and parents to be behind it. IOW, if the 5 best players in Cle decide they want to play for VASJ, then more power to them. However, I want VASJ to play for a DI state championship in that case, not a DIII or IV championship. That's all I'm saying.

"Heavy racial overtones" is a loaded phrase, but I understand why you think that. The best players in an urban area tend to be black kids, and so a lot of these competitive balance problems people cite tend to involve those kinds of kids. However, this is why I have cited the transfer of a 6-7 white kid to a roster of already talented and big white kids at my rural local public school 6 years ago as a clear example of how the quality of one player transferring affects competitive balance. That school won 2 DIV state championships with that one transfer. And so, this is why I would assert that this isn't racial, with me at least, even tho I see how one could assume that.

I would suggest we take urban vs. rural, race, private vs. public, and all of that out of the discussion - and asked one simple question. What is the cause of competitive imbalance? The answer is very talented transfers who go to a smaller enrollment school, and create a situation where the talent level of that team is much higher than the division the school is assigned based on enrollment. If I am correct on that, then the solution to competitive imbalance has to be directed at each major aspect of the problem. Anything that introduces any other factor into it is just a distraction.
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  #130  
Old 04-24-17, 01:48 PM
tndog tndog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
Well, the SVSM situation with Lebron, if you are accurate (I don't know, and don't really care; I'll assume you are right) wouldn't affect the competitive balance approach the OHSAA is taking. When that team congregated wouldn't have been a factor, but where they came from (in relation to the public school boundaries SVSM is in) is what would have mattered.

And this is why I say that it doesn't matter how MANY transfers you get, only the quality of those transfers and the quality of the team they are transferring to. Lebron could have transferred to the worst team in the state, and they would have become final four contenders. Lol.

I agree with the idea that as long as HS coaches/admins aren't orchestrating who plays where, offering incentives, etc. that it's fine for players and parents to be behind it. IOW, if the 5 best players in Cle decide they want to play for VASJ, then more power to them. However, I want VASJ to play for a DI state championship in that case, not a DIII or IV championship. That's all I'm saying.

"Heavy racial overtones" is a loaded phrase, but I understand why you think that. The best players in an urban area tend to be black kids, and so a lot of these competitive balance problems people cite tend to involve those kinds of kids. However, this is why I have cited the transfer of a 6-7 white kid to a roster of already talented and big white kids at my rural local public school 6 years ago as a clear example of how the quality of one player transferring affects competitive balance. That school won 2 DIV state championships with that one transfer. And so, this is why I would assert that this isn't racial, with me at least, even tho I see how one could assume that.

I would suggest we take urban vs. rural, race, private vs. public, and all of that out of the discussion - and asked one simple question. What is the cause of competitive imbalance? The answer is very talented transfers who go to a smaller enrollment school, and create a situation where the talent level of that team is much higher than the division the school is assigned based on enrollment. If I am correct on that, then the solution to competitive imbalance has to be directed at each major aspect of the problem. Anything that introduces any other factor into it is just a distraction.

Spot on!
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  #131  
Old 04-25-17, 07:39 AM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
take urban vs. rural, race, private vs. public, and all of that out of the discussion - and asked one simple question. What is the cause of competitive imbalance? The answer is very talented transfers who go to a smaller enrollment school, and create a situation where the talent level of that team is much higher than the division the school is assigned based on enrollment.
This
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  #132  
Old 04-25-17, 12:27 PM
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FormerWildcat FormerWildcat is offline
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Originally Posted by sportsauthority101 View Post
Westerville South proves talent doesn't win, they were a mess. Their Coach couldn't get them to play together and they had no cohesiveness.
That's an odd example to cite, considering they won the state championship last year.

http://www.thisweeknews.com/article/...NEWS/303209847

Perhaps they just didn't have as much talent this year as last?
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  #133  
Old 04-25-17, 01:13 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Originally Posted by IVCguy View Post
Well, the SVSM situation with Lebron, if you are accurate (I don't know, and don't really care; I'll assume you are right) wouldn't affect the competitive balance approach the OHSAA is taking. When that team congregated wouldn't have been a factor, but where they came from (in relation to the public school boundaries SVSM is in) is what would have mattered.

And this is why I say that it doesn't matter how MANY transfers you get, only the quality of those transfers and the quality of the team they are transferring to. Lebron could have transferred to the worst team in the state, and they would have become final four contenders. Lol.

I agree with the idea that as long as HS coaches/admins aren't orchestrating who plays where, offering incentives, etc. that it's fine for players and parents to be behind it. IOW, if the 5 best players in Cle decide they want to play for VASJ, then more power to them. However, I want VASJ to play for a DI state championship in that case, not a DIII or IV championship. That's all I'm saying.

"Heavy racial overtones" is a loaded phrase, but I understand why you think that. The best players in an urban area tend to be black kids, and so a lot of these competitive balance problems people cite tend to involve those kinds of kids. However, this is why I have cited the transfer of a 6-7 white kid to a roster of already talented and big white kids at my rural local public school 6 years ago as a clear example of how the quality of one player transferring affects competitive balance. That school won 2 DIV state championships with that one transfer. And so, this is why I would assert that this isn't racial, with me at least, even tho I see how one could assume that.

I would suggest we take urban vs. rural, race, private vs. public, and all of that out of the discussion - and asked one simple question. What is the cause of competitive imbalance? The answer is very talented transfers who go to a smaller enrollment school, and create a situation where the talent level of that team is much higher than the division the school is assigned based on enrollment. If I am correct on that, then the solution to competitive imbalance has to be directed at each major aspect of the problem. Anything that introduces any other factor into it is just a distraction.
It would have mattered since they joined forces after the 7th grade at St. V-M, and another starter came in after the 9th grade.

I thought divisional assignments were based on enrollment and not a reflection of the talent? Granted, that is the basis for the divisions being assigned as they are.

To eliminate any or all of the socio-economic factors from the equation is impossible, but what teams are people up in arms about? How do their rosters look? It is completely impossible to take something that is decided by the collective ability of the talent of the rosters and force each team to have an equal opportunity to win without having 50 or 100 divisions. There are teams that will always be near the top and unfortunately those that will always be near the bottom. With only 4 divisions there isn't enough divisions to separate the great teams from the really good.

Since I'm well aware of the 6'7" white kid who transferred that you referenced, the school who received him should be forced to change divisions for 1 student-athlete, who wasn't recruited, his family made transportation arrangements, and did every necessary thing to attend the school? He didn't feel that his needs were going to be able to be met at the first school so he enrolled in one that could better serve his needs, and whether that's sports or any other extracurricular or an academic class that's ok with me. Anytime an entity starts legislating individual decisions that's not good.

This can go on and on forever and likely will. The CBP is a bit of overkill in non-football sports, but it'll be fine and there will always be separation between exceptional teams and the rest, which is fine.
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  #134  
Old 04-26-17, 07:46 AM
tmajic tmajic is offline
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Bo, there is no entity that is legislating anything about individual decisions in your account. All IVCGuy is saying is that if the individuals do decide to create an AAU buddy team at a local high school then there would be ramifications (the school would have to play up). No one is taking the kids right to play or go to school where he wishes. But, the decision would have consequences.
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  #135  
Old 04-26-17, 11:43 AM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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Originally Posted by tmajic View Post
Bo, there is no entity that is legislating anything about individual decisions in your account. All IVCGuy is saying is that if the individuals do decide to create an AAU buddy team at a local high school then there would be ramifications (the school would have to play up). No one is taking the kids right to play or go to school where he wishes. But, the decision would have consequences.
1 transfer creates an "AAU Buddy Team"? Or is it 1 transfer of a certain level? Just prepare your team the best you can and face whoever you draw in the tourney? In the situation IVCGuy gave the school that received a transfer should be reassigned because the school the kid left from couldn't get its act together and address the situation within the program? In this case, the OHSAA would be punitively punishing a school for an individual situation? A transfer does not signify impropriety or unlimited resources (such as unending depth on the bball team), it's to the point that any loss in the postseason is met with scurrying to a website to complain of the inherent advantages the other teams have.
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  #136  
Old 04-28-17, 10:07 AM
IVCguy IVCguy is offline
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Tmajic, you said in 4 sentences what it took paragraphs for me. It's no coincidence my advanced English teacher used to write in red ink all over my papers, "Too Wordy". Lol.

Bo, yeah, you aren't getting it. You keep steering the conversation away from the cause of competitive balance problems, and conflating that cause with other issues - that have varying degrees of validity - but do not, all put together, equate to what happens when D1 level talent is accrued at a lower enrollment school.

That doesn't mean that the issues you are diverting to aren't important. They are, and we should work on them, but if we addressed every one of those, you would still have competitive imbalance problems because those issues are not at the core of it.

And one final point: please don't characterize the idea of moving a team to D1 from D4 after they receive the starting line up of an elite AAU team as "punishment". It's silly. If you have a team like that, forcing you to play teams of similar talent is not punishment. It is simply fair/fairer competition.
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