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  #31  
Old 04-11-17, 08:35 AM
The Veer The Veer is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post

Competition is that important.
You might want to let your boys over @ Hoover in on that... has not been much of that over there as of late
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  #32  
Old 04-11-17, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jackson03 View Post
Huh? I'm happy because it's the big dance, so to speak. I liked the old days of all the big schools in Stark County being in D1 and meeting in the playoffs. There were a lot of great games in the 90s and 2000s, and Perry was part of a lot of them. Same reason it would be nice if Hoover stayed D1, and the same reason I didn't like it when Massillon dropped to D2. Maybe you ought to relax.



Bored today, dude?
The nonsensical ramblings are all you dude.
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  #33  
Old 04-11-17, 05:49 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Originally Posted by The Veer View Post
You might want to let your boys over @ Hoover in on that... has not been much of that over there as of late
Enjoy it while you can.
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  #34  
Old 04-11-17, 07:55 PM
BIG ED BIG ED is offline
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The Panthers best competitive opportunity is in D-2, anyone wishing otherwise has malice in their hearts. That's as "relaxed" as I can make it. Go Perry!
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  #35  
Old 04-16-17, 02:17 AM
jackson03 jackson03 is offline
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I'm starting to think only the Central posters make any sense. Except SHADOW, of course.
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  #36  
Old 04-16-17, 09:17 AM
BIG ED BIG ED is offline
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I'm starting to think there should be more "common sense" while posting.
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  #37  
Old 04-16-17, 05:37 PM
jackson03 jackson03 is offline
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Article in the REP today, and Wakefield agrees with BIG ED. Talking about the possible futility of having to run through a five week gauntlet in D1.

On the other hand, might this be alleviated somewhat by realigning the regions? Split the big R1 powers up a bit. R2 is always constituted far too weakly -- maybe throw Eds and Solon in there, leave Ignatius and Mentor in R1, something like that.

The only other options would be a drastically smaller D1 or private-public separation. Neither of those options seem all that good to me.
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  #38  
Old 04-16-17, 09:19 PM
BIG ED BIG ED is offline
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Jackson03, good post!
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  #39  
Old 04-17-17, 08:09 AM
DB135 DB135 is offline
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Lightbulb

Sunday Special: Competitive balance plan hurts Perry
http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/2017...y?rssfeed=true

( Sent from The Repository )
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  #40  
Old 04-17-17, 12:03 PM
Starkbuck Starkbuck is offline
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I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but maybe Wakefield needs to update his playbook a bit. I think the most detrimental aspect of Perry is their one dimensional offense. To win a state title you have to be able to adapt and play multiple styles of offense. They have the tough kids, the hard nosed defense, now get an offense that can spread the field a bit and they'll be just fine.

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  #41  
Old 04-17-17, 01:44 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starkbuck View Post
They have the tough kids, the hard nosed defense
With all due respect, this is the only part of your post that I agree with.
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Originally Posted by Starkbuck View Post
I think the most detrimental aspect of Perry is their one dimensional offense. To win a state title you have to be able to adapt and play multiple styles of offense…now get an offense that can spread the field a bit and they'll be just fine.
You have it all wrong. To be successful, teams must be able to execute their offense (no matter what style) against ANY type of defense/scheming that lines up across from you. Have you ever watched Hilliard Davidson's offense? They won two titles at the highest level with 4 basic running plays. They threw one pass. They could block those 4 plays effectively vs. any front they saw, and they blew people off the ball. Did you ever watch Mooney's offenses for their championships? Hardly spread. Colerain ran inside and outside veer virtually every play en route to the most emphatic state championship ever. I could give you numerous more examples of non “spread” offenses that dominated. Your type of thinking is a cop out. Perry was a finger-tip away from winning the championship. You'd really question their offensive philosophy? Really? You really believe they would have been more successful, let alone, had the personnel, to run a spread? Who exactly was this spread QB they had? 4-5 receivers? I would need about 100 hands to count the number of teams who have gone to this cookie-cutter spread because it looked "cool" and because "Ohio State was running it," soon to go back to their bread and butter. Perry ran a spread for a few years. Where did it get them? I think they are much better off running an offense that defenses only get one week to prepare for. All they had to do was execute just a bit better (one block here or there) and they beat LaSalle. No need to change, just execute better.
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  #42  
Old 04-17-17, 02:15 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
With an adjustment to their enrollment of 38, Massillon is in the top 10 among all public schools in the state.
The only Top 10 list they'll make....
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  #43  
Old 04-17-17, 03:34 PM
The Veer The Veer is offline
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Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
The only Top 10 list they'll make....
Boom! Hahaha nice Lambeau
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  #44  
Old 04-17-17, 03:39 PM
Starkbuck Starkbuck is offline
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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
With all due respect, this is the only part of your post that I agree with.


You have it all wrong. To be successful, teams must be able to execute their offense (no matter what style) against ANY type of defense/scheming that lines up across from you. Have you ever watched Hilliard Davidson's offense? They won two titles at the highest level with 4 basic running plays. They threw one pass. They could block those 4 plays effectively vs. any front they saw, and they blew people off the ball. Did you ever watch Mooney's offenses for their championships? Hardly spread. Colerain ran inside and outside veer virtually every play en route to the most emphatic state championship ever. I could give you numerous more examples of non “spread” offenses that dominated. Your type of thinking is a cop out. Perry was a finger-tip away from winning the championship. You'd really question their offensive philosophy? Really? You really believe they would have been more successful, let alone, had the personnel, to run a spread? Who exactly was this spread QB they had? 4-5 receivers? I would need about 100 hands to count the number of teams who have gone to this cookie-cutter spread because it looked "cool" and because "Ohio State was running it," soon to go back to their bread and butter. Perry ran a spread for a few years. Where did it get them? I think they are much better off running an offense that defenses only get one week to prepare for. All they had to do was execute just a bit better (one block here or there) and they beat LaSalle. No need to change, just execute better.
I understand what you are saying but that philosophy only works when you have the best athletes. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but if you can't move the ball because you only have two d1 recruits against a front with six you need to level the playing field with scheme. Look at how Perry scored their points against LaSalle. How many came from long, sustained drives? LaSalle loaded the box and dared them to throw it, and Perry couldn't. That is what I'm talking about. When push comes to shove and your guys aren't as good or strong etc., you better be able to scheme your offense accordingly. Wakefield is one of the most respected coaches for a reason and that is the toughness that he instills in his kids and the fight he gets out of them. However, that will only get so far against a team with significant advantage in talent.

Do I think they need to go spread? No. Do I think they can win a state title with their offense and personnel? No. It is easy to scheme against Perry from a defensive aspect. And when you combine very coachable, talented kids that play sound football and not just hero ball you are able to shut down Perry's offense. That is why they need to be more than one dimensional.

I have nothing but respect for Perry and want to see them get over that mountain at the title game. I personally think that the era of playing that style of football at the division 1 or 2 level is long gone. So I guess we will agree to disagree.

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  #45  
Old 04-17-17, 06:00 PM
jackson03 jackson03 is offline
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Originally Posted by Starkbuck View Post
I personally think that the era of playing that style of football at the division 1 or 2 level is long gone.
Is it, though? Perry breezed through D2 two years running, only encountering resistance until they got to the state semis where they were gonna potentially face the Hudsons, WGHs, and LaSalles. I guess the argument is kind of... do I institute this more complex scheme and risk what I know works against 95% of teams -- or do I stick with what I have, play the odds, and hope LaSalle trips up somewhere so I get an easier title game opponent?

I guess it's a moot point now as Perry will be D1. We'll see if there's a big difference or not, should they make it to week 11.
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  #46  
Old 04-17-17, 07:54 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Originally Posted by jackson03 View Post
Is it, though? Perry breezed through D2 two years running, only encountering resistance until they got to the state semis where they were gonna potentially face the Hudsons, WGHs, and LaSalles. I guess the argument is kind of... do I institute this more complex scheme and risk what I know works against 95% of teams -- or do I stick with what I have, play the odds, and hope LaSalle trips up somewhere so I get an easier title game opponent?

I guess it's a moot point now as Perry will be D1. We'll see if there's a big difference or not, should they make it to week 11.
I say no need to re-invent the wheel or try to be something you're not. Identify what your team can do well, and do it. Man for man, Perry generally does not have the athletes to use a spread offense in a way that would make an athletic opponent like LaSalle have to honor it. Don't believe me? Go watch the Perry boys track team run a dual meet sometime, or just look at the track results in the Rep on Wednesdays. Wakefield has encouraged many of his players to run track, so they're available for public view.
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  #47  
Old 04-17-17, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jackson03 View Post

On the other hand, might this be alleviated somewhat by realigning the regions? Split the big R1 powers up a bit. R2 is always constituted far too weakly -- maybe throw Eds and Solon in there, leave Ignatius and Mentor in R1, something like that.
Or go back to 2 regions in D1. Yes it makes for a few long trips in the first round but Stark County is either going to be in the same region as Toledo or northern Columbus (or both). Some long trips either way. A team like Perry could hold their own with most teams in the bottom half enrollment wise in D1.
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  #48  
Old 04-17-17, 09:09 PM
starkfb starkfb is offline
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I agree with Flood, Jackson and Slippery . Perry has tried the full house, eye and spread by 2 other coaches and it did not work out very well. I am happy with Coach Wake. He does more with less. When he retires , I want to see Perry hire the closest clone to him we have. I thought Miller might be the guy but maybe not. I would rather gamble with a clone than hire outside as that was already tried . fyi Perry should be very tough again this year.
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  #49  
Old 04-17-17, 09:35 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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Originally Posted by Starkbuck View Post
that philosophy only works when you have the best athletes.
Really? Davidson had ONE D1 player (QB went to Air Force) when they beat Cleveland Glenville for their second D1 championship. Glenville had 9 D1 players! And they beat them with 4 basic, well-executed ground plays, and Glenville literally had 10 in the box all game. Your theory is bunk. Davidson’s athletes aren’t any different than Jackson’s, Green’s or Hoover’s. If you have inferior athletes, why would a multiple, spread offense lead to any more success than any other offense? I’d rather run right AT an athletic team like Glenville any day, test their mettle, than try to get fancy with them out on the perimeter with slow, small, limited athletes. Again, Perry tried a spread offense. It stunk.
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When push comes to shove and your guys aren't as good or strong etc., you better be able to scheme your offense accordingly... It is easy to scheme against Perry from a defensive aspect.
I bet more teams than not would disagree with you here. Sure, Central and Jackson beat Perry early in the season, but they are much more familiar with them being yearly foes. Nobody in the playoffs even came close to stopping them until the championship game against the Cincinnati all stars. Why would anyone change anything when you are a play or two from winning a state championship? I would argue that they have a great offensive scheme because the teams they will face later in the playoffs are not used to it. If Perry tries to spread out LaSalle on the perimeter, they lose by 30. Remember, their offense served as a great defense as well by how much time they ran off the clock. Spread offenses do the opposite. They extend the game, stop the clock and give the opponent’s offense far more chances to score.
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So I guess we will agree to disagree.
Yes, we will.
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  #50  
Old 04-18-17, 12:27 AM
jackson03 jackson03 is offline
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Or go back to 2 regions in D1. Yes it makes for a few long trips in the first round but Stark County is either going to be in the same region as Toledo or northern Columbus (or both). Some long trips either way. A team like Perry could hold their own with most teams in the bottom half enrollment wise in D1.
Yes, definitely, Wakefield and the Rep are saying as much -- Perry can handle the middle-tier D1 playoff teams. Last year they only lost to two state champions (Central, LaSalle) and one D1 playoff team (Jackson). They'd have given everyone but Ed's and Iggy a game in R1. The OHSAA needs to get smart about how they arrange regions. I'm not a huge fan of the two-region setup but I know a lot of people are. Even if you stick with the four regions to keep the games closer geographically, at least make R1 and R2 even. You just can't have Solon, Stow, Eds, Iggy, and Mentor in R1 and have your biggest R2 power be Toledo Whitmer. I'm not sure if there's any room for balancing out R3 and R4, they seem to be okay as-is. I would also be fine with what you're saying about having the D1 Fed teams go to northern Columbus or vice versa -- the OHSAA might hate that though, the ticket receipts from the playoffs are their bread and butter in terms of revenue.
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  #51  
Old 04-19-17, 01:47 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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I'm starting to think only the Central posters make any sense. Except SHADOW, of course.
When comments like this are made, it just proves that I have been gone and not posting of late. I bring down the reputation of the Central posters with each key stroke I make.
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  #52  
Old 04-20-17, 11:47 AM
BIG ED BIG ED is offline
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Did anyone here there could be some fine tuning of the numbers by June? I've heard this from a couple folks, but I'm questioning whether it's true.
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  #53  
Old 04-20-17, 12:09 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Did anyone here there could be some fine tuning of the numbers by June? I've heard this from a couple folks, but I'm questioning whether it's true.
I could be wrong but I believe the numbers for the fall sports are final. In June, divisional breakdowns for the winter sports are to be announced.

http://www.ohsaa.org/School-Resources/MondayMinute
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  #54  
Old 04-22-17, 07:21 AM
jtigerjoe jtigerjoe is online now
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Huh? I'm happy because it's the big dance, so to speak. I liked the old days of all the big schools in Stark County being in D1 and meeting in the playoffs. There were a lot of great games in the 90s and 2000s, and Perry was part of a lot of them. Same reason it would be nice if Hoover stayed D1, and the same reason I didn't like it when Massillon dropped to D2. Maybe you ought to relax.



Bored today, dude?
Maybe Jackson feels better getting beat by Div 1 schools instead of Div 2 schools. Talk about a program that is a mess. With your enrollment you should roll little Central Catholic and the likes. You guys always start out like gangbusters, then choke like a chicken. Worry about your own program. You have had a few scandals in the past. Oh, by the way, tell your Jackson nation to hang around after the band show.
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  #55  
Old 04-22-17, 08:39 PM
jackson03 jackson03 is offline
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Maybe Jackson feels better getting beat by Div 1 schools instead of Div 2 schools. Talk about a program that is a mess. With your enrollment you should roll little Central Catholic and the likes. You guys always start out like gangbusters, then choke like a chicken. Worry about your own program. You have had a few scandals in the past. Oh, by the way, tell your Jackson nation to hang around after the band show.
You're not wrong. Jackson runs out to a great start every year, loses by a score to McKinley or GlenOak, and then quits on the season. Whether they are just tired of it by week 7 or so, I don't know. The passion is there for basketball, maybe they're just not interested in running a competitive football team for 10 weeks. If that's what it is, that's okay, being a basketball school makes them unique. We'll see how they do this year, I do like Coach Budd's attitude, maybe the kids will buy in.

None of that has anything to do with what I'm saying though. I've never said a bad word about Perry. Talked about how great they are repeatedly in this thread, actually. If you guys think I'm subtly slamming them or I really care about .5 more L1 points, that's fine. Be as ridiculous as you want.
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  #56  
Old 04-22-17, 08:50 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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You're not wrong. Jackson runs out to a great start every year, loses by a score to McKinley or GlenOak, and then quits on the season. Whether they are just tired of it by week 7 or so, I don't know. The passion is there for basketball, maybe they're just not interested in running a competitive football team for 10 weeks. If that's what it is, that's okay, being a basketball school makes them unique. We'll see how they do this year, I do like Coach Budd's attitude, maybe the kids will buy in.

None of that has anything to do with what I'm saying though. I've never said a bad word about Perry. Talked about how great they are repeatedly in this thread, actually. If you guys think I'm subtly slamming them or I really care about .5 more L1 points, that's fine. Be as ridiculous as you want.
I thought it was pretty easy to see you weren't slamming Perry. Some people are a little too sensitive sometimes.

But, to say that the Jackson kids "quit(s) on the season" is just wrong. Those kids don't deserve to have that said about them.
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  #57  
Old 04-22-17, 09:30 PM
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I thought it was pretty easy to see you weren't slamming Perry. Some people are a little too sensitive sometimes.

But, to say that the Jackson kids "quit(s) on the season" is just wrong. Those kids don't deserve to have that said about them.
Obviously they worked very hard in the offseason last year. No denying that. Putting yourself on the line in a very physically demanding game is impressive no matter what your team's final record is. No offense meant.

There definitely is a pattern, though. They have a propensity to drop games they shouldn't late in the season. Losing to a 3-7 McKinley team. Or a 2-8 Boardman team. Or multiple .500 or less Hoover teams. Jackson did beat 4 playoff teams last year (including Perry), and there was really no shame in anyone they lost to. Perhaps just bad luck and a few pieces missing this time around. I like where they are with the coaching staff. Gotta see if that pattern gets broken, though. Results will prove everyone wrong if they're righting the ship.
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  #58  
Old 04-24-17, 08:45 AM
Flood Flood is offline
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Obviously they worked very hard in the offseason last year. No denying that. Putting yourself on the line in a very physically demanding game is impressive no matter what your team's final record is. No offense meant.

There definitely is a pattern, though. They have a propensity to drop games they shouldn't late in the season. Losing to a 3-7 McKinley team. Or a 2-8 Boardman team. Or multiple .500 or less Hoover teams. Jackson did beat 4 playoff teams last year (including Perry), and there was really no shame in anyone they lost to. Perhaps just bad luck and a few pieces missing this time around. I like where they are with the coaching staff. Gotta see if that pattern gets broken, though. Results will prove everyone wrong if they're righting the ship.
They had to have led the county, if not country, in penalties, especially the Oline. That should not happen at a school like Jackson.
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  #59  
Old 04-24-17, 01:27 PM
Starkbuck Starkbuck is offline
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You're not wrong. Jackson runs out to a great start every year, loses by a score to McKinley or GlenOak, and then quits on the season. Whether they are just tired of it by week 7 or so, I don't know. The passion is there for basketball, maybe they're just not interested in running a competitive football team for 10 weeks. If that's what it is, that's okay, being a basketball school makes them unique. We'll see how they do this year, I do like Coach Budd's attitude, maybe the kids will buy in.

None of that has anything to do with what I'm saying though. I've never said a bad word about Perry. Talked about how great they are repeatedly in this thread, actually. If you guys think I'm subtly slamming them or I really care about .5 more L1 points, that's fine. Be as ridiculous as you want.
I think the culture at Jackson is slowly changing, and this program is learning how to win. Many talented teams do not know how to win games that are difficult to win, and that is what separates the good from the great. Since I only saw Jackson play a couple of times last year I think they had a large amount of talent on that team, but lacked the experience of how to win. They committed untimely penalties, poor mental mistakes in turning the ball over when unnecessary, and even seemed to be panicked with faced adversity. All of these things are common when teams have not experienced success and are finding how to win games they maybe shouldn't and win games that they most certainly should.

I really like what Jackson is doing with their program and honestly they have a very talented core of players coming up that will be fun to watch. That being said, I hope that the school is still supportive of the current coaching staff and realize that this program is making leaps and bounds. Either way, it is much more fun when the big schools in Stark County are good!
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  #60  
Old 04-25-17, 12:05 AM
jackson03 jackson03 is offline
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I think the culture at Jackson is slowly changing, and this program is learning how to win. Many talented teams do not know how to win games that are difficult to win, and that is what separates the good from the great. Since I only saw Jackson play a couple of times last year I think they had a large amount of talent on that team, but lacked the experience of how to win. They committed untimely penalties, poor mental mistakes in turning the ball over when unnecessary, and even seemed to be panicked with faced adversity. All of these things are common when teams have not experienced success and are finding how to win games they maybe shouldn't and win games that they most certainly should.

I really like what Jackson is doing with their program and honestly they have a very talented core of players coming up that will be fun to watch. That being said, I hope that the school is still supportive of the current coaching staff and realize that this program is making leaps and bounds. Either way, it is much more fun when the big schools in Stark County are good!
Yup, those will be the two keys: the administration staying supportive (because they have frequently been combative or a negative force in the past) and the team not going to pieces after that first disappointing loss. The next two years will have kids who have been in Budd's system for most or all of their playing careers and likely this is when we'll see the most improvement, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
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