Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Football

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-11-17, 09:46 PM
Pantherontheporch Pantherontheporch is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 10-22-06
Location: My front porch
Posts: 1,583
Pantherontheporch is on a distinguished road
A Modest Proposal

Maybe there is a way for the OHSAA to separate the big privates (and maybe even the smaller privates, too) from most of the publics after all. If something along the lines of what I am about to suggest has been the subject of a thread before, I apologize, but if so it’s been a while and maybe it’s time for the staid OHSAA to go radical and really think outside the box in order to head off any more growth in the movement for truly separate public and private football tournaments.
Under the POTP Plan to Save Football, the OHSAA goes back to six divisions based on enrollment (and competitive balance factors, if they want) but then creates an Open Division. The first 16 or 24 teams (probably all D-I) to enter based on a fax the OHSAA receives after noon of some date are in. The entry period could be one or two weeks. Schools that sign up would be listed on the OHSAA website within one day so that schools that are considering leaving their regular division and signing up for the Open Division could see who they might play come playoff time. I know they wouldn’t get 32 entries, and 24 probably is wishful thinking, but set the minimum at 16 and it may have a chance (more on that later). I think a number of normally good large-school teams, private as well as public, will sign up due to pride, at least for the first couple of years.
To encourage a few sometimes-good large-school teams to sign up, everyone in the Open Division will make the playoffs, regardless of record. There would be some first-round byes in the highly unlikely event they get 17-31 teams. If there are fewer than 16 entries by the deadline for the next year, things go back to the current seven divisions for that next year. If that happens for three consecutive years, the Open Division would be suspended indefinitely until the requisite number of member schools request in writing that it be revived and they all agree to play in the Open Division for at least two or three years. Other than that circumstance, a team could drop out of the Open Division and return to its regular division simply by not sending a fax for the next season.
To help eliminate scheduling difficulties, the system would encourage regular Division I to VI teams to schedule Open Division teams. A regular division team that schedules an Open Division team would receive a small number of bonus Harbin points just for playing such a game, say 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, whatever. Thus, the regular division team would get the bonus points even if it loses, but would receive even more bonus points (in addition to its regular points) should it pull off the upset. The smaller the regular division school, the higher the bonus points. The bonus points would be added onto a school’s Harbin total after all the current calculations have been performed, straight on top. There would be no bonus points for a regular division school that has to play an Open Division school because they are in the same league.
Some might say, this is all well and good for D-I, but what about the public-private issues that exist at the lower levels? Good point. To address the concerns of smaller schools, the OHSAA could take things a step further and create not one but two Open divisions, say Open-National and Open-American. The Open-National would be for teams that otherwise would be in Divisions I, II, and III (while it probably would be all D-I, maybe a D-II power would try it one year) while the Open-American would be for teams from Divisions IV, V, and VI (while it probably would be all D-IV, maybe a D-V power would give it a go one year).
A regular division I, II, or III school would get the regular bonus points for scheduling (and beating) an Open-National team (unless it is a league game), but would not get any bonus points of any kind for playing (and beating) an Open-American team. A regular division IV, V, or VI school would get the regular bonus points for scheduling (and beating) an Open-American team (unless it is a league game) and even more bonus points if it schedules (and beats) an Open-National team (a league game is highly unlikely).
Similarly, an Open-American team that schedules an Open-National team would get bonus points for scheduling (and beating) the Open-National team, but not vice versa.
Not being a systems guy, I have no idea how difficult and costly the additional programming would be for the above to be incorporated into the software of the OHSAA’s computers.
Of course, this is just a rough proposal, and I know the devil is in the details. But let’s say Elder, Moeller, St. Edward, St. Ignatius, and St. Xavier all sign up (I’m not sure LaSalle would, since they are D-II). Then you would need at least eleven public schools to make it work, and quite frankly, they would be the key to the whole thing. Maybe Colerain and Mason decide to join the party for a year to see how it goes; now you need nine more. Maybe two teams from the Dayton area sign up; now you need seven more. Maybe one of the Olentangy schools and one of the Pickerington schools sign up; now you need only five more. Maybe one school from Cuyahoga County and one from Stark County sign up, now you need only three more from anywhere in the state. Get those three, and it’s a go.
Does this idea have any merit, maybe at least as a framework? What are the holes and difficulties? Are any of them insurmountable (and no, sheer stubbornness on the part of the OHSAA doesn’t count, see editorial comment below)? What else would need to be considered and fleshed out that I am overlooking?
One obvious drawback is that a team might have to travel four hours or more one way to play its first playoff game, but unfortunately that scenario can’t be avoided if the OHSAA were to continue the policy (and rightly so) of having the higher seeds host the opening round. That would mean Saturday games for that round, and I guess they’re considering going away from scheduling Saturday playoff games due to attendance issues. After that round, it would be neutral sites until the state finals, same as now, but on Friday nights.
And of course with teams signing up for the Open Division(s), the regular regions may not be balanced; should reassigning then be done?
Naturally, the OHSAA would have to do a nonbinding survey of its members in order to evaluate the viability of a new Open Division. I’m pretty confident the powers in charge at Vincent and Regina would dust off their purple and white fax machine (assuming someone hasn’t pawned it and they can find it) if the OHSAA were to create something like this.
Allow me one editorial comment. The last “A” in “OHSAA” stands for “Association.” It exists to serve its member schools, not the other way around. It seems people, including the high schools themselves, forget that the high schools (the principals) ultimately hold the power. Since the OHSAA is a voluntary association, at the end of the day its officers and officials are beholden to its members, a majority of which can force change through a vote, either through a change in a bylaw or a change in leadership. If a majority of the member schools were to decide that they want some form of a voluntary Open Division for football, the OHSAA would have to respond. If they don’t, the schools should overcome their usual (but understandable) inertia and pursue regime change. And that goes for any sports-related issue, not just this issue.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-11-17, 10:38 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 09-29-16
Posts: 294
Cali_Eagle is on a distinguished road
I have a couple of posts on here suggesting a Super Division (or Open Division if you prefer) that teams could self nominate to. I aimed my own suggestion at Division 1 but also suggested in at least one post that maybe some other "Super Divisions" for smaller schools could be offered as well.

RE: The OP's idea, it certainly could be the good starting basis for discussion about some sort of system to do this. I don't doubt there are some publics that would be willing to play in an Open / Super Division. Probably not very many, but some. I'm sure anyone here can name the probable "usual suspects". If D1 and D2 were combined (in the Open Division not the regular divisions) I'm sure there are a few more schools that would at least give it consideration.

I also suggested separate Public and Private playoff brackets and that the champions could meet in a post season game (if both teams wished to do so, which I think they probably would most of the time). I see no shame in being Public School State Champion and losing to the Private School State Champion in a post season game, as would probably happen more often than not. You would think that could make everyone happy. Maybe you have such a game for D1/D2 and D3 and D5, depending on how the private school teams choose to align their brackets. Plus the Publics could re-bracket and have less than 7 Divisions. Start a 6 or 8 man separate division for really small schools and cut back to say 4 or 5 divisions.

The matchups and brackets would require some tweaking but it could be done. And even if D1 - Private had only 6 teams (including LaSalle, which in recent years has shown they are more than capable of competing in D1.) Seed the 6 and play top 3 against bottom 3. Best winner (highest seed) gets a bye, play a semifinal and the winner meets the bye team for the Title.

In how many years will the best team from GCL-S and St Ed and St I not be worthy of shot at the State Public Champion? It seems just a couple years ago when Moeller was 4-6 there was a loooong thread in which many posters said basically (*paraphrase* of many posts) "It's too bad Moeller looks like they will miss the playoffs because if they get in they would be very capable of doing some damage and advancing far. They can beat loads of the other (public) teams in the R4 field."

IOW, they were / are perceived to be just that good, even when their record suggests otherwise. Well... under my system the Big Six would all be in the playoffs every year regardless of record. (It's not like they need to prove anything, after all most of Yappi thinks they are Great even when they aren't showing it.) Win 2 or 3 games (someone does get a bye) and they would get a shot at the Public Champ. Win 3 or 4 games (including a win over the Public Champ) and get to thump your chests as the "real" State Champion.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-12-17, 06:04 AM
dograt dograt is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 09-29-03
Location: Dayton
Posts: 529
dograt is on a distinguished road
Panther, I don't hate the idea, but I don't think it would work.
School administrators have enough issues. they don't want to deal with the backlash their choice (open division or not) would create. Much easier to blame it all on the OHSAA and move on.
I'm guessing most communities would rather be division 1 champions over open division runners-up. So most would choose to stay.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-12-17, 06:47 AM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 07-27-16
Posts: 821
Harrycrane has a little shameless behaviour in the past
In this state there isn't enough private and catholic schools to separate them so they don't and shouldn't . My thought has always been that NOT winning a state title as a public isn't something to whine about or lament .

The trend around the country in general { not to a large extent in this state yet } is the top publics are getting more transfers than ever. This transfer trend isn't unique to high school athletics of course as college sports have huge number of transfers , record numbers in College basketball and football .

The attitude is there is always something better out there , you don't start within the first year or two BOOM , you leave or at least look at other options. One of the things that some like so much about Mitch Trubitsky is his STAYING at UNC even though he was the back-up for two years with his talent.

AAU basketball teams are going to be better and beat basketball teams made up from one district PERIOD , a good u-17 club soccer team is going to be better than your local public high school team PERIOD, large Catholic d-1 football teams even though there are only five of them will win the majority of the state titles PERIOD .

Catholics win titles in soccer at an even higher rate , they SHOULD win they are AAU or Club like in nature, getting good players from various places . My daughters club soccer team a few years back had kids from 10 different communities , it SHOULD and was better than most high school teams as each player was one of the better players on their high school team all starting early in their careers .

This is an INHERENT advantage that you can do little to nothing about except for may be move some privates up like they are doing now, . It's not a perfect plan , nor will it change much in terms of who is winning state titles .

This isn't a " EVERYONE GETS A TROPHY " measure either as some haughty Private snobs like huff and puff. It's simply a small measure to move some programs to a level where they really belong and can compete at a higher level and to Brad Burchfield's credit to name just one example that I k now for sure, is embracing it .

He knows as the talent level grows at that school , his teams getting better and better it's TIME to move up and play more teams more like themselves for better competition .


There is no need to disparage Publics or castigate Privates, it's apples and oranges , they are different .

Lastly a lame train of thought I see out here pertaining to this thread , is posters using the " Well " SOME" of the Catholics stink in some sports so where is the advantage and " my school wins because we are just a better breed" . , and others at well " look at Wayne or Davidson winning titles or a excellent successful program like Steuby does well , so why don't you ". blah blah , that shows publics are at no inherent advantage .

It's as simple as AAU and Club like programs are going to beat One district programs MOST of the time and if included together in state tournaments this is the expected result going forward . The fact that " SOME" or a few Private programs that are successful " MIGHT" have to move up once in a while in some odd years isn't punishing anyone, in fact some years moving up has shown to be advantageous as some coaches have noted over the years because of certain match-ups in your region .
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-12-17, 09:20 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-23-11
Posts: 3,135
Lambeau Fields is on a distinguished road
I can't believe someone out-typed Stivic. WTF?!?

Anyway, I don't think the proposal "saves football". I don't think football is at any risk of dying. If it was it will be the concussion issue, funding/pay-to-play, or lawsuits that does it in. Not Catholics winning too many state titles.

By and large, I agree with almost all of what Stivic said. I'll add that in most years, the are a few dozen teams in the State (out of 600+ plus) who have legitimate shots at a state title. A lot of teams talk about it, but it is a realistic goal for a small % of teams. Thus, I can't see a real or perceived un-level route to a state title keeping kids from playing or fans from cheering.

Closed District Pubic school championships are rare. It is what it is. But it is really sweet when it happens. When teams like Loveland had their run a few years back, or when Athens had that great year and fell just short against TCC, or the Davidson teams did their thing it creates a lot of excitement IMO, for both their communities and Ohio HS football in general. I think some sort of jerry rigged system to foster "fairness" will just feel artificial.

The closed District, public school football state champ is an endangered species, like the 18 year old senior wrestling state champ competing for school district where he grew up. The genie can't be put back in the bottle ( or toothpaste back in the tube, pick your metaphor). There is still endless enjoyment to be had following both sports. And it's super sweet when David slays Goliath.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-13-17, 04:12 AM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 07-27-16
Posts: 821
Harrycrane has a little shameless behaviour in the past
Yes it does very little actually , just a tweak that has some feeling " PUNISHED" because they have a bit less of a chance to win a state championship may be .

Football doesn't need being saved, concussion issues are real , specializing is another real issue as football being a real strong commitment sport is an easy one or the first one many kids seem to " GIVE UP" as it were.

It's 90 degrees and humid as it was many days last summer especially, you think about what your school sport plan is for the year? hmmm more kids unfortunately are musing" May be I stay inside in the AC or go lift , or they tell themselves they will work on another sport, and it is this process that leads to " WELL I WON'T START UNTIL SR YEAR SO SCREW IT , I QUIT. This isn't going to reverse itself , you see much less basketball / football players in some schools you see NONE of these crossovers.

CJ Saunders and Sean Rankins are rare. Back in we older guys day there was always a few and many played three sports.

Each school only has so many athletes , football is losing some of them , as it's almost fashionable to give up that sport after MS .

Closed public school titles isn't happening here, just not enough privates percentage wise . If you look a bit deeper at the last 4 times a Public has won state in D-1 , they ALL beat another public to win it . There was a couple of wins over Catholics along the way but even then it wasn't a ton of them .

Davidson beat Elder at the end of the game with the help of a long pass downfield that was do or die and they can't pass really . Beat Mentor in the final in a very exciting multiple OT game . Beat a talented but kind of undisciplined and not really well coached Glenville team by a point .

Colerian beat McKinley in the final , and going further back to 2000 Upper Arlington beats Solon a like community to them in demo's in a close game not having to beat any Catholics along the way .

Yes it is exciting , Davidson did a ton for Central Ohio's reputation , and the region has bene better overall since, even with the many school splits which Hilliard went through after Davidson won the two titles, and it is not a coincidence they haven't bene back to the Big show , although they have gone deep a few more times after that being the best D-1 program in R-3, which beast Wayne is now a part of.

Another thing that is obnoxious is the private sect , looking down on Public fans who reasonably say that a state title is not always a realistic goal , and they say you have a loser defeatist attitude , scared to compete , 3rd place is god enough blah blah blah .

You speak of close calls and it's mocked . It's garbage and pathetic. It's coming from private fans who have the luxury of realistically thinking state title or bust many years . well run good programs of the Smaller catholics in d-3 or d-4 have large advantages over 98 percent of their like sized publics .

This is the crux of the matter , they don't want anymore Ursuline over Shadyside's , or some programs easy entry into state Semi's each year . Have to play more often against like programs , they are saying " You have outgrown this level of competition.

As I said Burchfield to his credit is liking the fact that his team has a harder path . good for him .
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-13-17, 07:15 AM
Wahoo Sam Wahoo Sam is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-16-01
Location: Colerain
Posts: 2,648
Wahoo Sam is on a distinguished road
The "Super Division" argument has been on here for at least 10 years.

I think its time that people stop looking at enrollment numbers and Public v.private schools and start thinking in terms of Serious Football Schools and Community Football Schools.

The Serious Football Schools are the ones that create the teams that can compete Nationally and want to compete Nationally. (Think St. X, St. I, LaSalle, Colerain) They produce the majority of the Power 5 Recruits from the State. They want to compete in the National 7 on 7 Tournaments and have Spring Ball.

The Community Football Schools want to keep closed enrollment and keep things like the good ole' days (no Spring Ball- no traveling etc.).

The Community Teams out number the Serious Schools and therefore control the OHSAA. This puts the Serious Schools at a Competitive disadvantage with Out of State Schools and most importantly the players with other recruits.

So if the little schools don't want Spring Football so Johnny can play baseball great. But the Serious Schools need Spring Football so Jimmy can get the exposure and reps to be recruited Big Time Power 5.

This split is going to happen. Better that we all acknowledge it. Let the Serious Schools play with fewer restrictions for their own title. Let the Community Schools play among themselves for Titles that they have a legitimate chance to win.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-13-17, 11:04 AM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 11-23-11
Posts: 3,135
Lambeau Fields is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
This split is going to happen.
Wake me up when it happens....
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-13-17, 11:48 AM
Heathwood Heathwood is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 04-11-17
Posts: 5
Heathwood is on a distinguished road
For clarification purposes to Shadyside vs Ursuline. Those two never played in the D6 title game. Shadyside was defeated by Delphos St. Johns 77-6 in that game. Interestingly, in the first CBP adjustment, Shadyside had a larger adjustment than Delphos SJ.

Looking at CBP, I would like to give it a chance and see where it goes. I think it adjusted most of the schools properly although I do not agree with TCC only moving up by 1 but that is the initial rules. Somebody is going to have an issue not matter how they cut it, the way the numbers fell this time has angered the D3 people but the D5 people are probably elated.

I am and always will be a supporter of kids playing as many sports as they can. In terms of Wahoo, let all of the Super D1's split as that will probably go a long way in fixing the issue that is D1 which was nowhere near addressed with the CBP.

Let the CBP handle the smaller privates and open enrolled accordingly (Tweaks will be made as time goes on), and remove the Super schools which operate by a completely different set of rules anyways. Then they get their Spring Ball and the rest operate under OHSAA guidelines.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-13-17, 12:59 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 04-06-06
Location: Lurking around
Posts: 1,162
Bo Kimble is on a distinguished road
But Ursuline over Shadyside has been almost confirmed as truth given the times mentioned and repeated ( I know it was DSJ 77-6 over Shadyside) but kind of a microcosm of the CBP/Public-Private Schism/ OHSAA reorganization.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-13-17, 01:48 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-12-06
Posts: 6,520
winbypin is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
The "Super Division" argument has been on here for at least 10 years.

I think its time that people stop looking at enrollment numbers and Public v.private schools and start thinking in terms of Serious Football Schools and Community Football Schools.

The Serious Football Schools are the ones that create the teams that can compete Nationally and want to compete Nationally. (Think St. X, St. I, LaSalle, Colerain) They produce the majority of the Power 5 Recruits from the State. They want to compete in the National 7 on 7 Tournaments and have Spring Ball.

The Community Football Schools want to keep closed enrollment and keep things like the good ole' days (no Spring Ball- no traveling etc.).

The Community Teams out number the Serious Schools and therefore control the OHSAA. This puts the Serious Schools at a Competitive disadvantage with Out of State Schools and most importantly the players with other recruits.

So if the little schools don't want Spring Football so Johnny can play baseball great. But the Serious Schools need Spring Football so Jimmy can get the exposure and reps to be recruited Big Time Power 5.

This split is going to happen. Better that we all acknowledge it. Let the Serious Schools play with fewer restrictions for their own title. Let the Community Schools play among themselves for Titles that they have a legitimate chance to win.
When did Ohio get spring football? Did I miss something?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-13-17, 02:04 PM
Heathwood Heathwood is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 04-11-17
Posts: 5
Heathwood is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
When did Ohio get spring football? Did I miss something?
Nope. I was replying to Wahoo's claim that the super schools need spring football. No spring football in Ohio as of now.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-13-17, 02:45 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 07-27-16
Posts: 821
Harrycrane has a little shameless behaviour in the past
No I just rememberd it wrong a game ten years ago, not tying to pull a fast one or further an argument. that year 2010 saw Ursuline handle Coldwater fairly easily I believe is what I was wrong about, Teague was the stud back ? Ursuline O-line dwarfed Coldwater? I think that is accurate . So to clarify they didn't blowout Shadyside that year. Ursuline had a nice run winning three straight which is OK good for them , but a team like that playing small community publics was a nice advantage personnel wise , that's the point and continues to be..

I will ask why if it is the case somew Catholic private supporters object to being moved up a division if they are a top program? Do you see it as unfair ? Why? Do you think you have an advantage over liked sized publics ? If not why ?

Overall , it's a small tweak , it isn't anti CATHOLIC , no one is being punished here, , if you think so offer reasons.

Sammler privates in various sports all across the country OPT TO PLAY AT HIGHER DIVISIONS for competition purposes, it challenges their kids more which leads to growth and winning a small school state title every year against overmatched teams in about 80 percent of play-off games gets old for some.

This SUPER school dynamic is real , some publics got national attention every blue moon when they put together a couple of great classes back to back may be .

Some larger ;publics with solid community support good football demo's and coaching along with a stud transfer or 4 in a short time period can get TO NATIONAL STATUS , or have a better chance at it if they can replace some areas of need with well placed transfers. Pick C in 2011 , Wayne the last few years were varying degrees of close to being a state champs . Colerain had the material on defesne this past year certainly but played a game under their talent level on that side of the ball and got dumped this year.

Super programs are ones that kids want to play for , sometimes it works out for the transfers sometimes it doesn't in terms of playing time. Many already had offers or were sure to get the no matter where they played their last year or two in HS. some IT BENIFITS or may be helps them get a better offer or two. Bottom line though is you need to perform at the CAMPS , tryout season as they call it is SOON in spring , not this fall .

Does not having spring ball in Ohio give recruits in other states that do a leg up ? and to what degree? Development ? extra coaching? How about 7 on 7 in the summer for skill kids?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-13-17, 04:41 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-13
Posts: 2,161
Bball216 is on a distinguished road
Will not work. No Public school AD in his or her right mind would sign up. What would be the benefit ? It would be career suicide. Say you have a pretty good public team and you draw Iggy, Ed's or X in round one and get thumped. The parents, players and fans would go bat s@$t crazy because you could have competed for a state championship had you not volunteered for the Super Division. Does the school get money ? Does the school get ANYTHING that outweighs the risk ? Most public schools try like hell to avoid the privates - why would you willingly choose to play them ?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-13-17, 06:13 PM
hoser hoser is online now
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 08-19-13
Location: shangra-lah
Posts: 6,834
hoser can only hope to improve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherontheporch View Post
Maybe there is a way for the OHSAA to separate the big privates (and maybe even the smaller privates, too) from most of the publics after all. If something along the lines of what I am about to suggest has been the subject of a thread before, I apologize, but if so it’s been a while and maybe it’s time for the staid OHSAA to go radical and really think outside the box in order to head off any more growth in the movement for truly separate public and private football tournaments.
Under the POTP Plan to Save Football, the OHSAA goes back to six divisions based on enrollment (and competitive balance factors, if they want) but then creates an Open Division. The first 16 or 24 teams (probably all D-I) to enter based on a fax the OHSAA receives after noon of some date are in. The entry period could be one or two weeks. Schools that sign up would be listed on the OHSAA website within one day so that schools that are considering leaving their regular division and signing up for the Open Division could see who they might play come playoff time. I know they wouldn’t get 32 entries, and 24 probably is wishful thinking, but set the minimum at 16 and it may have a chance (more on that later). I think a number of normally good large-school teams, private as well as public, will sign up due to pride, at least for the first couple of years.
To encourage a few sometimes-good large-school teams to sign up, everyone in the Open Division will make the playoffs, regardless of record. There would be some first-round byes in the highly unlikely event they get 17-31 teams. If there are fewer than 16 entries by the deadline for the next year, things go back to the current seven divisions for that next year. If that happens for three consecutive years, the Open Division would be suspended indefinitely until the requisite number of member schools request in writing that it be revived and they all agree to play in the Open Division for at least two or three years. Other than that circumstance, a team could drop out of the Open Division and return to its regular division simply by not sending a fax for the next season.
To help eliminate scheduling difficulties, the system would encourage regular Division I to VI teams to schedule Open Division teams. A regular division team that schedules an Open Division team would receive a small number of bonus Harbin points just for playing such a game, say 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, whatever. Thus, the regular division team would get the bonus points even if it loses, but would receive even more bonus points (in addition to its regular points) should it pull off the upset. The smaller the regular division school, the higher the bonus points. The bonus points would be added onto a school’s Harbin total after all the current calculations have been performed, straight on top. There would be no bonus points for a regular division school that has to play an Open Division school because they are in the same league.
Some might say, this is all well and good for D-I, but what about the public-private issues that exist at the lower levels? Good point. To address the concerns of smaller schools, the OHSAA could take things a step further and create not one but two Open divisions, say Open-National and Open-American. The Open-National would be for teams that otherwise would be in Divisions I, II, and III (while it probably would be all D-I, maybe a D-II power would try it one year) while the Open-American would be for teams from Divisions IV, V, and VI (while it probably would be all D-IV, maybe a D-V power would give it a go one year).
A regular division I, II, or III school would get the regular bonus points for scheduling (and beating) an Open-National team (unless it is a league game), but would not get any bonus points of any kind for playing (and beating) an Open-American team. A regular division IV, V, or VI school would get the regular bonus points for scheduling (and beating) an Open-American team (unless it is a league game) and even more bonus points if it schedules (and beats) an Open-National team (a league game is highly unlikely).
Similarly, an Open-American team that schedules an Open-National team would get bonus points for scheduling (and beating) the Open-National team, but not vice versa.
Not being a systems guy, I have no idea how difficult and costly the additional programming would be for the above to be incorporated into the software of the OHSAA’s computers.
Of course, this is just a rough proposal, and I know the devil is in the details. But let’s say Elder, Moeller, St. Edward, St. Ignatius, and St. Xavier all sign up (I’m not sure LaSalle would, since they are D-II). Then you would need at least eleven public schools to make it work, and quite frankly, they would be the key to the whole thing. Maybe Colerain and Mason decide to join the party for a year to see how it goes; now you need nine more. Maybe two teams from the Dayton area sign up; now you need seven more. Maybe one of the Olentangy schools and one of the Pickerington schools sign up; now you need only five more. Maybe one school from Cuyahoga County and one from Stark County sign up, now you need only three more from anywhere in the state. Get those three, and it’s a go.
Does this idea have any merit, maybe at least as a framework? What are the holes and difficulties? Are any of them insurmountable (and no, sheer stubbornness on the part of the OHSAA doesn’t count, see editorial comment below)? What else would need to be considered and fleshed out that I am overlooking?
One obvious drawback is that a team might have to travel four hours or more one way to play its first playoff game, but unfortunately that scenario can’t be avoided if the OHSAA were to continue the policy (and rightly so) of having the higher seeds host the opening round. That would mean Saturday games for that round, and I guess they’re considering going away from scheduling Saturday playoff games due to attendance issues. After that round, it would be neutral sites until the state finals, same as now, but on Friday nights.
And of course with teams signing up for the Open Division(s), the regular regions may not be balanced; should reassigning then be done?
Naturally, the OHSAA would have to do a nonbinding survey of its members in order to evaluate the viability of a new Open Division. I’m pretty confident the powers in charge at Vincent and Regina would dust off their purple and white fax machine (assuming someone hasn’t pawned it and they can find it) if the OHSAA were to create something like this.
Allow me one editorial comment. The last “A” in “OHSAA” stands for “Association.” It exists to serve its member schools, not the other way around. It seems people, including the high schools themselves, forget that the high schools (the principals) ultimately hold the power. Since the OHSAA is a voluntary association, at the end of the day its officers and officials are beholden to its members, a majority of which can force change through a vote, either through a change in a bylaw or a change in leadership. If a majority of the member schools were to decide that they want some form of a voluntary Open Division for football, the OHSAA would have to respond. If they don’t, the schools should overcome their usual (but understandable) inertia and pursue regime change. And that goes for any sports-related issue, not just this issue.
Uh, could you go into a little more detail? Uh really a very broad proposal, too many details not addressed.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-13-17, 07:20 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 09-29-16
Posts: 294
Cali_Eagle is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Will not work. No Public school AD in his or her right mind would sign up. What would be the benefit ? It would be career suicide. Say you have a pretty good public team and you draw Iggy, Ed's or X in round one and get thumped. The parents, players and fans would go bat s@$t crazy because you could have competed for a state championship had you not volunteered for the Super Division. Does the school get money ? Does the school get ANYTHING that outweighs the risk ? Most public schools try like hell to avoid the privates - why would you willingly choose to play them?
There is a tremendous amount of truth in what you are saying. You would need a community mindset such that "We want to be in the very best and highest competitive division we can possibly be in, even if that is playing "up", so that when we win it, we will be the ultimate champions."

I don't know if even Massillon has this attitude anymore. (At one time, perhaps back in their true glory days, I am 100% certain they would have wanted to. I wish there had been playoffs back then. I am certain they'd have won plenty of State Playoff Titles.) I am nowhere near close enough to the Tiger program and community to know if they would play up in D1 today (under the present system) if they had the chance to do so under OHSAA rules. (Which presently don't allow playing up.) I tend to doubt it and there is no shame in not wanting to do that. I don't know that Wayne, Mentor or Colerain (for just 3 examples) would do it either. I could see that going either way for the State's Public powers.

And you raise a tremendous flaw in the Super Division idea (which I admittedly have floated in recent posts as a possibility to deal with the situation.) The incentive for teams to self nominate to it is nil, if they think they would have a better chance at a State Title in the "regular" division. The risk is high and the reward is negligible. So it's (Super Division) probably not going to work, BBall216 is correct.

Of course it begs the point of why anyone would ever want to play one of the Super power private schools in the first place. Everyone thinks and says the gulf is wide and deep, but a lot of people don't want to say the competition makes little to no sense. What does make sense is a Public State Champ, a Private State Champ and a post season challenge game, if the two champs in question wish to play one.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-13-17, 11:07 PM
Pantherontheporch Pantherontheporch is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 10-22-06
Location: My front porch
Posts: 1,583
Pantherontheporch is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Will not work. No Public school AD in his or her right mind would sign up. What would be the benefit ? It would be career suicide. Say you have a pretty good public team and you draw Iggy, Ed's or X in round one and get thumped. The parents, players and fans would go bat s@$t crazy because you could have competed for a state championship had you not volunteered for the Super Division. Does the school get money ? Does the school get ANYTHING that outweighs the risk ? Most public schools try like hell to avoid the privates - why would you willingly choose to play them ?
Fair enough question.
Anyone from Colerain: Why do your a.d. and head coach continue to willingly choose to play St. X during the regular season, including this coming season? You know you'll probably see them at some point in the playoffs, why not wait until then? Heck, you guys actually seem to look forward to it: "SPOILER ALERT: You’ll want to clear your calendar for Friday Sep 1, 2017 right now!" Why are your a.d. and head coach still employed at Colerain? Why haven't they been fired for having committed career suicide by scheduling X? Why aren't they now persona non grata among public school principals?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-14-17, 08:07 AM
Wahoo Sam Wahoo Sam is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-16-01
Location: Colerain
Posts: 2,648
Wahoo Sam is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherontheporch View Post
Fair enough question.
Anyone from Colerain: Why do your a.d. and head coach continue to willingly choose to play St. X during the regular season, including this coming season? You know you'll probably see them at some point in the playoffs, why not wait until then? Heck, you guys actually seem to look forward to it: "SPOILER ALERT: You’ll want to clear your calendar for Friday Sep 1, 2017 right now!" Why are your a.d. and head coach still employed at Colerain? Why haven't they been fired for having committed career suicide by scheduling X? Why aren't they now persona non grata among public school principals?
The Colerain Coach before the current coach said that if he won the GMC he would make the Playoffs. That was the goal of the Regular Season. Once the Post Season started the Cards would have to "win the GCL" to get out of the Region. And that held pretty true.

Coach Bolden plays the GCL teams now because its hard for Colerain to schedule non-conference games and everyone remembers the Colerain-St. X games they played, not the Colerain-Ryle Game.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-14-17, 08:12 AM
Wahoo Sam Wahoo Sam is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-16-01
Location: Colerain
Posts: 2,648
Wahoo Sam is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali_Eagle View Post


And you raise a tremendous flaw in the Super Division idea (which I admittedly have floated in recent posts as a possibility to deal with the situation.) The incentive for teams to self nominate to it is nil, if they think they would have a better chance at a State Title in the "regular" division. The risk is high and the reward is negligible. So it's (Super Division) probably not going to work, BBall216 is correct.

Of course it begs the point of why anyone would ever want to play one of the Super power private schools in the first place. Everyone thinks and says the gulf is wide and deep, but a lot of people don't want to say the competition makes little to no sense. What does make sense is a Public State Champ, a Private State Champ and a post season challenge game, if the two champs in question wish to play one.
I don't think you can rely just on Self Nomination. There needs to be a criteria for teams to be selected without an option to opt out. The Criteria could look at W-L Records over a period of years. Playoff performance etc.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-14-17, 08:20 AM
Wahoo Sam Wahoo Sam is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-16-01
Location: Colerain
Posts: 2,648
Wahoo Sam is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali_Eagle View Post


And you raise a tremendous flaw in the Super Division idea (which I admittedly have floated in recent posts as a possibility to deal with the situation.) The incentive for teams to self nominate to it is nil, if they think they would have a better chance at a State Title in the "regular" division. The risk is high and the reward is negligible. So it's (Super Division) probably not going to work, BBall216 is correct.

Of course it begs the point of why anyone would ever want to play one of the Super power private schools in the first place. Everyone thinks and says the gulf is wide and deep, but a lot of people don't want to say the competition makes little to no sense. What does make sense is a Public State Champ, a Private State Champ and a post season challenge game, if the two champs in question wish to play one.
I don't think you can rely just on Self Nomination. There needs to be a criteria for teams to be selected without an option to opt out. The Criteria could look at W-L Records over a period of years. Playoff performance etc.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-14-17, 08:25 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 04-04-12
Location: Rayen Stadium
Posts: 8,409
EastYoungstown is on a distinguished road
None of this will happen.

It's as pie in the sky as my idea to get everyone in the playoffs.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-14-17, 09:26 AM
BGFalcons86 BGFalcons86 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-26-02
Location: Hilliard, OH 43026
Posts: 3,299
BGFalcons86 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
I can't believe someone out-typed Stivic. WTF?!?
Funny, that was my thought exactly.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-17-17, 06:35 AM
Wahoo Sam Wahoo Sam is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-16-01
Location: Colerain
Posts: 2,648
Wahoo Sam is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
None of this will happen.

It's as pie in the sky as my idea to get everyone in the playoffs.
Yes. And probably not going to happen within the next few years. But with the split between the Community Schools and the "Super" Schools becoming more and more pronounced its a matter of time until something happens.

It is now headed toward a Private/Public Split. This is a suggestion is just an alternative.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-17-17, 02:50 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 04-04-12
Location: Rayen Stadium
Posts: 8,409
EastYoungstown is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
Yes. And probably not going to happen within the next few years. But with the split between the Community Schools and the "Super" Schools becoming more and more pronounced its a matter of time until something happens.

It is now headed toward a Private/Public Split. This is a suggestion is just an alternative.
I disagree. maybe more divisions and something to move up successful teams. Not a split tough.

No matter what they do, I just wanna see everyone in some day.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-17-17, 03:45 PM
Wahoo Sam Wahoo Sam is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-16-01
Location: Colerain
Posts: 2,648
Wahoo Sam is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
I disagree. maybe more divisions and something to move up successful teams. Not a split tough.

No matter what they do, I just wanna see everyone in some day.
Look at the Ky tournament where everyone gets in. Those first round games are absolutely brutal. 50 point beatings are common place.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-17-17, 03:50 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 04-04-12
Location: Rayen Stadium
Posts: 8,409
EastYoungstown is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo Sam View Post
Look at the Ky tournament where everyone gets in. Those first round games are absolutely brutal. 50 point beatings are common place.
And we don't get those already in football? Sometimes even in state semis and state finals?

We don't get those in basketball, soccer and other sports?

That point is BS.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A Heavy Proposal Bump_Of_Chicken Wrestling 66 02-12-16 08:30 PM
State lawmakers discussing proposal that would ban pay-to-participate fees Yappi Football 40 11-17-15 10:22 PM
Illinois - Proposal to overhaul football scheduling rejected in school vote FormerWildcat National Football Board 7 07-31-15 09:11 PM
FACTS On Timken/McKinkley Merger proposal radiodaveagain Football 41 03-11-15 12:09 PM
Proposal to split of Florida into two states Crusaders General Board 4 10-22-14 05:30 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:31 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz