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  #31  
Old 02-04-19, 12:51 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailman112 View Post
Latman I don't have the answer. I would like to go back to the old system. Returning state points. Chidy brought up good points but to me, that was the best way. 1 day top 8 teams. IF and this is a BIG IF, if the transfer rule holds back some of these transfers the only part missing would be incoming STUD Freshman. In reality, how many place at state? My guess is very few in D1 (except lower weights 06-20) I may be wrong. I'm not sure anyone has a plan in place that everyone would accept.
One thing I think we are not thinking about is the overall experience for the teams. In the old system the only ones that might be paying attention to your underclassman points and if you qualify for the State Duals is the coaches. Most everyone is worried about the Individuals qualifying for state and the thrill of that and rightfully so. The teams aren't getting a trophy presentation at District saying hey you made the Coaches Association State Duals next year. When we qualified the 1 time the kids didn't really know about it until the next year when it was on our schedule.

Take for instance Wadsworth and Perkins this year. They've been close to making it for the past 6 years but could never quite get there. I'm sure their staffs, wrestlers, and fans were super pumped to get that Gold Regional Trophy and are looking forward to the State Dual experience.

It just so happens to work out that OSU is versus PSU this year on Friday before the State Duals which are on Sunday. We are heading down Friday as a team to watch the match, practice the next day, and then compete on Sunday. It will be something all these guys remember for the rest of their lives especially the JV guy who will probably never sniff the A team lineup and won't make it to Individual State.

I feel like in the new format it's a lot bigger deal than it use to be. You are qualifying on your teams merits from the current year and everyone has contributed in some way towards that State berth.
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  #32  
Old 02-04-19, 01:02 PM
wdanforth wdanforth is offline
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Brackets
https://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/Sports/W...ateBracket.pdf
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  #33  
Old 02-04-19, 01:03 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Originally Posted by braves1431 View Post
Anyone know when they will be releasing the seeds?
The wait is over!!

https://www.baumspage.com/ohsaa/wrt/...ateBracket.pdf
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  #34  
Old 02-04-19, 01:06 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by chidy View Post
I feel like in the new format it's a lot bigger deal than it use to be. You are qualifying on your teams merits from the current year and everyone has contributed in some way towards that State berth.
While I personally am not a fan of the way it was done this year, I have worked them every year since the first year and the enthusiasm on the part of the team members is really fun to watch. This past week at Perry, when Aurora won the championship, the kids were SUPER excited both as a team and for their team mates.
The line up juggling and the individual match ups make for a great atmosphere.
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  #35  
Old 02-04-19, 03:55 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Financial Piece of Team Regional

You know that OHSAA will be looking at the bottom line of the Team events as a big part of making the changes was to try to get out of the Red on this event.

Spoke with the AD of 1 of the D2 Regions and that Regional was in the Red $1000 (Gate minus amount paid to the host site which I believe was $250 per dual). This doesn't include the cost of the officials which is paid at the state level.

So that's another $1600 for officials (I may be off on this but I think officials were paid $200 and there were 8 officials per site). So in total that Region was in the Red $2500+

If that's the same statewide then it's a loss of $60,000 on the Regional portion of things. Not sure how much it costs OHSAA to put on the Team State but I'm guessing another $20,000+

Each team had to pay $50 to participate. There were about 350 teams in total that participated across all 3 Division. So that was about $17,500 in Revenue generated from the teams.

Not sure what the average Revenue for the State Portion of the event is. I know that single session tickets are $10 (2 sessions) and all session are $15. Let's pretend that they sell 1,000 all session tickets. I have no clue what the average attendance has been in the past. So we're talking about $15,000 per thousand in attendance.

I guessing when all is said and done the Team Event will take about a $50,000 loss this year which is about half as much as in previous years. This is just a guesstimate so don't crucify me if I'm wrong.

A way to bring it closer to a break even would be to charge each team $100+ to participate. There might be a point of diminishing returns with this as teams might opt not participate with paying $100+ for 1 match.

The Clay D1 Region 1 I attended was hard to tell how many people actually paid to attend due to 2 gyms being used and people being spread out. The crowd for the finals was an ok size but not large by any stretch.

How big were the crowds at the other Regions?

Last edited by chidy; 02-04-19 at 04:36 PM.
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  #36  
Old 02-04-19, 04:08 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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I honestly feel that in order to reduce the # of forfeits in this event, that OHSAA needs to change the rule on how many weight classes need to be filled to be considered a team. I'm thinking that a team must field 8, 9, or 10 weight classes. Not sure what the right number is for that but I feel that 7 weight classes filled doesn't make a "Team". I'm leaning towards 9 as a number. Which would be 64% of weight classes filled (9/14)

I'm not sure what the average team size is in D3 where I think this might be more of an issue but forfeits aren't good for the sport and are not fan friendly.
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  #37  
Old 02-04-19, 04:21 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chidy View Post
I honestly feel that in order to reduce the # of forfeits in this event, that OHSAA needs to change the rule on how many weight classes need to be filled to be considered a team. I'm thinking that a team must field 8, 9, or 10 weight classes. Not sure what the right number is for that but I feel that 7 weight classes filled doesn't make a "Team". I'm leaning towards 9 as a number. Which would be 64% of weight classes filled (9/14)

I'm not sure what the average team size is in D3 where I think this might be more of an issue but forfeits aren't good for the sport and are not fan friendly.
At our region (19) in D3, there were only 14 teams. So, no round of 32 matches and only 6 round of 16 matches.

In those 6 duals:
3 of them only had 4 or 5 matches contested (one of the 2 teams forfeited or both did), only 3 of them had at least 10 matches contested.

So on average 7 matches contested. This first round went fast (obviously).

In the QFs, it was a little better, but not great:
QF1-8 matches contested
QF2-only dual the whole day where all 14 matches were wrestled, Mogadore vs Edgewood
QF3-7 contested
QF4-12 contested
QFs averaged just over 10 matches contested

SF1-12
SF2-9

Finals-13

The first round, at most D3 regions, were forfeit fests for sure. I believe at our region only Ashtabula Edgewood (who is D2 in individual state) and Mogadore had full teams.
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  #38  
Old 02-04-19, 06:12 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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I know I'm bringing up an old issue, but I sincerely believe it's worth examining. I still believe that when the Coaches Association had the State Duals it was much better. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it didn't lose money, each team was guaranteed three matches, and in smaller venues within your own division the excitement and intensity seemed much stronger. Having officiated both, more than once, I selfishly enjoyed the old system better. But it's not about the officials, I've spoken to VERY few coaches AND wrestlers who prefer the new format. I hope coaches push for the reassessment of the state duals format.
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  #39  
Old 02-04-19, 06:21 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 350zjk View Post
I know I'm bringing up an old issue, but I sincerely believe it's worth examining. I still believe that when the Coaches Association had the State Duals it was much better. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it didn't lose money, each team was guaranteed three matches, and in smaller venues within your own division the excitement and intensity seemed much stronger. Having officiated both, more than once, I selfishly enjoyed the old system better. But it's not about the officials, I've spoken to VERY few coaches AND wrestlers who prefer the new format. I hope coaches push for the reassessment of the state duals format.
My experience has been just the opposite. Teams are involved that would NEVER have had a chance if the old way was still in place. Even if they win one, two or three meets at the Regional level, that would never have been close to getting to competing the old way.

According to what Chidy posted, the number of teams entered is impressive, at least to me.

2019 Percentage of Team Partipating
D1 113/132 (86%)
D2 118/134 (88%)
D3 117/136 (86%)

How is more participation bad? Sure lots of teams have no hope of getting to Columbus but there is no harm in dreaming of it.
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  #40  
Old 02-04-19, 07:33 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
My experience has been just the opposite. Teams are involved that would NEVER have had a chance if the old way was still in place. Even if they win one, two or three meets at the Regional level, that would never have been close to getting to competing the old way.



How is more participation bad? Sure lots of teams have no hope of getting to Columbus but there is no harm in dreaming of it.
I don't remember saying that more teams participating is bad. I'm only saying that I feel the format of the Coaches Associations was more fan, wrestler, and coach friendly; in MY opinion. Could it use tweaking to create more participation, absolutely.
To each his own; opinions differ. Just sharing my thoughts and those of many others. Another detraction might be traveling a great distance to wrestle one match, on a Sunday no less. This is in the best interest of the sport?
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  #41  
Old 02-04-19, 10:41 PM
Huge Huge is offline
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What about inviting the top 8 teams per region (could be voted on by all coaches in the region) for 8 regionals of 8 teams with the winners advancing to the state dual tournament?
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  #42  
Old 02-05-19, 12:25 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 350zjk View Post
Another detraction might be traveling a great distance to wrestle one match, on a Sunday no less. This is in the best interest of the sport?
In the interest of value for travel and time; if you are going to have an 8 team state tournament then you should at the least allow matches to determine the top 8 positions. So, that all teams would get 3 duals; winners wrestle winners and losers wrestle losers then repeat and you have the top 8 in order rather than just determining the top 2.

Round of 8 winners to semis
Round of 8 losers to consi-semis
Semis winner to championship
Semis loser to 3rd place finals
Consi-semi winner to 5th place finals
Consi-semi loser to 7th place finals

5th and 7th finals on 6 mats
1st and 3rd finals on 6 mats

They could easily pull out 2 more mats for the first couple rounds and use a first available mat for assignment until the finals. Then reduce to 6 mats.

They could do something similar at the regionals and ensure that all teams participating are getting 3 matches. Probably round robin dual format at regionals; where teams are assigned to pools of 4 and wrestle all teams in their pool, then top 8 winners of the pools are bracketed for finals and consolation finals. I think this would increase participation and the value of participating.
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  #43  
Old 02-05-19, 07:01 AM
Tigers_Wrestling Tigers_Wrestling is offline
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2 regional champs in the same section in D3.
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  #44  
Old 02-05-19, 08:28 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by Tigers_Wrestling View Post
2 regional champs in the same section in D3.
Yes, both Crestwood and Rootstown are at the Rootstown Sectional for individual.
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  #45  
Old 02-05-19, 08:40 AM
Tigers_Wrestling Tigers_Wrestling is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Yes, both Crestwood and Rootstown are at the Rootstown Sectional for individual.
As well as Tuslaw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chidy View Post
You know that OHSAA will be looking at the bottom line of the Team events as a big part of making the changes was to try to get out of the Red on this event.

Spoke with the AD of 1 of the D2 Regions and that Regional was in the Red $1000 (Gate minus amount paid to the host site which I believe was $250 per dual). This doesn't include the cost of the officials which is paid at the state level.

So that's another $1600 for officials (I may be off on this but I think officials were paid $200 and there were 8 officials per site). So in total that Region was in the Red $2500+

If that's the same statewide then it's a loss of $60,000 on the Regional portion of things. Not sure how much it costs OHSAA to put on the Team State but I'm guessing another $20,000+

Each team had to pay $50 to participate. There were about 350 teams in total that participated across all 3 Division. So that was about $17,500 in Revenue generated from the teams.

Not sure what the average Revenue for the State Portion of the event is. I know that single session tickets are $10 (2 sessions) and all session are $15. Let's pretend that they sell 1,000 all session tickets. I have no clue what the average attendance has been in the past. So we're talking about $15,000 per thousand in attendance.

I guessing when all is said and done the Team Event will take about a $50,000 loss this year which is about half as much as in previous years. This is just a guesstimate so don't crucify me if I'm wrong.

A way to bring it closer to a break even would be to charge each team $100+ to participate. There might be a point of diminishing returns with this as teams might opt not participate with paying $100+ for 1 match.

The Clay D1 Region 1 I attended was hard to tell how many people actually paid to attend due to 2 gyms being used and people being spread out. The crowd for the finals was an ok size but not large by any stretch.

How big were the crowds at the other Regions?



Honestly, if they want to get more fans in the stands and people paying at the door, they need to do it earlier in the season. Do the entire tournament over Christmas break. Yeah, a lot of coaches will say that's too early and they have guys still making alpha, but that's a full month after most alpha's, and most teams are still healthy and haven't had guys lost for the season yet, and coaches wouldn't be inclined to have guys sit for fear of injury for sectionals who may be banged up but not injured. Most schools are off from the Friday before Christmas to Jan 2nd/3rd. There are tournaments ran those weekends, so obviously it can be done. Do it on Tuesday and Friday of whatever week falls in between Christmas and New Years. That wouldn't interfere with almost any duals or tournaments, the kids are off of school, and teams numbers are higher and less injuries have occurred. It's 7 weeks after the start of the season so it's definitely not too early so everyone is in wrestling mode, and everything else lines up pretty well. I have no idea why - in a sport like this where the later the season the more the grand can get to teams - the end of the season would be thought of as a good time to hold the tournament. Yes, it helps with conflicting schedules, but so does the idea above.

The more kids on the rosters, the more fans in the seats, the less forfeits, the more competitive the tournament gets, the better it is for everyone.

Also, if they're not already, trying to spread out the best teams (who also have the most fan following) could be a way to help things. In D3, Tuslaw and Rootstown - #2 & #3 teams in the state according to BoroFan - were in the same region (20) and of course only one could qualify for the state tournament. Same thing in D2 Region 13, Beaver Local, Louisville, and Canfield are all ranked in the top 5 of the state. I'm not sure why everything has to be broken down exclusively by geography, but I'm sure if one were in a different region they both would be in Columbus on Sunday. I'm sure fans and teams would understand a little longer drive for a more competitive tournament.

Also, making it $100 to participate per team. I wouldn't go much higher than that being that half of all teams who enter get just one match.

Or, they could just make it mandatory and everyone participates. Yeah, some teams only field 4 weight classes, but it would solve a lot of problems. If this were to happen, I really think that JUST coaches voting should not be the only criteria. Maximum number of forfeits should also be taken into account as well. Not just the amount of weight classes filled, but the maximum amount of weight classes that can be filled by each team by bumping up. The more possible forfeits, the less points towards seeding criteria. Get the smaller teams with forfeits in the first rounds and move on from there. There are plenty of teams with just a handful of kids who already wrestle in duals. Or you could get really creative and crazy and combine smaller teams, or have dual tournament weight classes where 113 and 195 are eliminated, but that would make the traditionalists heads explode.

Last edited by Tigers_Wrestling; 02-05-19 at 09:25 AM.
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  #46  
Old 02-05-19, 09:54 AM
chidy chidy is offline
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Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
In the interest of value for travel and time; if you are going to have an 8 team state tournament then you should at the least allow matches to determine the top 8 positions. So, that all teams would get 3 duals; winners wrestle winners and losers wrestle losers then repeat and you have the top 8 in order rather than just determining the top 2.

Round of 8 winners to semis
Round of 8 losers to consi-semis
Semis winner to championship
Semis loser to 3rd place finals
Consi-semi winner to 5th place finals
Consi-semi loser to 7th place finals

5th and 7th finals on 6 mats
1st and 3rd finals on 6 mats

They could easily pull out 2 more mats for the first couple rounds and use a first available mat for assignment until the finals. Then reduce to 6 mats.

They could do something similar at the regionals and ensure that all teams participating are getting 3 matches. Probably round robin dual format at regionals; where teams are assigned to pools of 4 and wrestle all teams in their pool, then top 8 winners of the pools are bracketed for finals and consolation finals. I think this would increase participation and the value of participating.
As has been discussed multiple times before. St. John's can't hold anymore than the 6 mats it currently does. As it is now your entire team can't be matside due to space restrictions.

Also as discussed previously, no other OHSAA sanctioned TEAM sport does a consolation bracket. It's lose once you're done.
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  #47  
Old 02-05-19, 09:58 AM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Originally Posted by chidy View Post
As has been discussed multiple times before. St. John's can't hold anymore than the 6 mats it currently does. As it is now your entire team can't be matside due to space restrictions.

Also as discussed previously, no other OHSAA sanctioned TEAM sport does a consolation bracket. It's lose once you're done.
Use the Schott or a bigger venue....
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  #48  
Old 02-05-19, 10:03 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by chidy View Post
Spoke with the AD of 1 of the D2 Regions and that Regional was in the Red $1000 (Gate minus amount paid to the host site which I believe was $250 per dual). [/B]
$250, per dual? Is that accurate? That seems a little high. I would imagine a pay out of roughly $1,200 for your janitorial staff, police, and tournament director. Possibly a few bucks to table workers and I doubt you are over $1,500. A 12 team site would bring in $2,750. Add concessions and that's a nice little bump for host sites, if accurate. If I was OHSAA, I'd consider lowering that pay out a bit. I don't think they will profit off of this event, but with a little tweak in pay for the sites and possibly more restrictions on entry requirements, they could get close. errrrr.
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  #49  
Old 02-05-19, 10:19 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by TakedownFor2 View Post
Use the Schott or a bigger venue....
Never happen. They already have a deal in place with OSU and it's beneficial to both parties. The amount to rent out the Schott would be much higher than STJ. Crowds aren't big enough to accommodate the increase.
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  #50  
Old 02-05-19, 10:19 AM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
While I personally am not a fan of the way it was done this year, I have worked them every year since the first year and the enthusiasm on the part of the team members is really fun to watch. This past week at Perry, when Aurora won the championship, the kids were SUPER excited both as a team and for their team mates.
The line up juggling and the individual match ups make for a great atmosphere.
what about the beat down on a lot of teams? how much fun was it for the coaches, parents, wrestlers and fans to watch their team get beat 75-0 and there were plenty of those. Need to go back to the way it was at Wadsworth.
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  #51  
Old 02-05-19, 10:24 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
what about the beat down on a lot of teams? how much fun was it for the coaches, parents, wrestlers and fans to watch their team get beat 75-0 and there were plenty of those. Need to go back to the way it was at Wadsworth.
The teams that got drilled (mostly due to forfeits) knew what was going to happen when they signed up. A coach knows his team. They sign up just to get their kids another match heading into Sectionals.

Wasn't that long ago that this was the case for our school (Mogadore) we had 1-3 very good wrestlers and a lot of new wrestlers that would be JV on most high schools. We just didn't have the numbers for a JV then.

Coach wanted another match for his kids knowing they would lose in the first round.

This year we were in the regional finals with 10/14 starters being freshmen or sophomores.

Trust me, they know ahead of time what is going to happen, it isn't a shock, and they signed up for it to happen. They are "ok" with it.
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  #52  
Old 02-05-19, 10:28 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
what about the beat down on a lot of teams? how much fun was it for the coaches, parents, wrestlers and fans to watch their team get beat 75-0 and there were plenty of those. Need to go back to the way it was at Wadsworth.
Are you always so bright and cheerful?
Or is it something about me that gets under your skin?
What do you think I should say?
I wrote about the fact that the teams were excited when their team mates won and pushed the whole team forward.
You, on the other hand, bring up one sided matches.
BTW, when that match was going on, I had a 37-36 match in the same round.
We get it that you are not a fan of this format.
Now, take a deep breath and relax. Nothing you or I say or do will have any effect on the whole series.
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  #53  
Old 02-05-19, 10:31 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Originally Posted by chidy View Post
St. John's can't hold anymore than the 6 mats it currently does.
You are absolutely correct and you are also wrong. St. John's can only hold 6 mats when it is setup the way that it is currently setup. However, take a look at the way it was setup for the individual state tournament back in the 80s and you will see that it can definitely hold 8 mats and have plenty of space at mat side for the teams. It just requires setting up the arena without the floor level seating.

With floor level seating only 6 mats will fit:


Without floor level seating 8 mats will fit with plenty of extra space:
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  #54  
Old 02-05-19, 10:31 AM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Never happen. They already have a deal in place with OSU and it's beneficial to both parties. The amount to rent out the Schott would be much higher than STJ. Crowds aren't big enough to accommodate the increase.
Doesn't seem very beneficial for the OHSAA if they are losing thousands of dollars....
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  #55  
Old 02-05-19, 10:45 AM
dion dion is offline
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Also as discussed previously, no other OHSAA sanctioned TEAM sport does a consolation bracket. It's lose once you're done.[/QUOTE]


This is a valid point, but wrestling is a unique sport in a number of ways. One being that a wrestler could compete in a multi team event and never actually compete because of forfeits or defaults. Allowing consolation matches is not only fan and wrestler friendly, but obviously provides more revenue by having people stick around. Can someone remind me of the loss the State takes financially from the State Duals?
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  #56  
Old 02-05-19, 11:00 AM
tkdn_wizard tkdn_wizard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
Also as discussed previously, no other OHSAA sanctioned TEAM sport does a consolation bracket. It's lose once you're done.

This is a valid point, but wrestling is a unique sport in a number of ways. One being that a wrestler could compete in a multi team event and never actually compete because of forfeits or defaults. Allowing consolation matches is not only fan and wrestler friendly, but obviously provides more revenue by having people stick around. Can someone remind me of the loss the State takes financially from the State Duals?[/QUOTE]

I'm in favor of a consolation bracket.

With that being said....

If OHSAA lets wrestling do a consolation bracket for this, guarantee someone else/another sport will demand the same. Therefore won't happen. Has to be the same across the board. You start making exceptions and it gets messy. Doesn't matter how unique it is, cause in the eye of the beholder everyone's sport is unique and special.
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  #57  
Old 02-05-19, 11:20 AM
innoshape innoshape is offline
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Considering profit/loss, I am reading this thread thinking about how much money I "lost" when it comes to wrestling, but just kept on spending money. Anybody who has ever coached or supported a kid who wrestled (and really cared) is never in the black.
I am certain many of the posters on this site feel the same way. You do it for the kids and the love of the sport.
Is the state dual format perfect? No. Its a work in progress still gaining traction.
Perhaps the OHSAA is benevolent in this regard. I am not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. We all lose money to help our kids and promote the sport of wrestling, so why not the OHSAA? I mean, hey, welcome to the club! But I get it, its a business.
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  #58  
Old 02-05-19, 11:23 AM
chidy chidy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
You are absolutely correct and you are also wrong. St. John's can only hold 6 mats when it is setup the way that it is currently setup. However, take a look at the way it was setup for the individual state tournament back in the 80s and you will see that it can definitely hold 8 mats and have plenty of space at mat side for the teams. It just requires setting up the arena without the floor level seating.

With floor level seating only 6 mats will fit:


Without floor level seating 8 mats will fit with plenty of extra space:
Are you speaking from experience? Because I am. I've been on the floor the last 5 years as a coach for the team duals. The bleachers aren't out during the 1st 2 rounds. They are only out for the finals when they have only 3 mats. There is not room for more than 6 mats. I've ran many a tournaments. We run 9 mats at our Freestyle tournament in the spring. St. Johns can't hold more mats in a dual setting.
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  #59  
Old 02-05-19, 11:24 AM
chinwhip chinwhip is offline
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Ed’s, Graham, Genoa
Anybody got a different prediction?
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  #60  
Old 02-05-19, 11:31 AM
TakedownFor2 TakedownFor2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chidy View Post
Are you speaking from experience? Because I am. I've been on the floor the last 5 years as a coach for the team duals. The bleachers aren't out during the 1st 2 rounds. They are only out for the finals when they have only 3 mats. There is not room for more than 6 mats. I've ran many a tournaments. We run 9 mats at our Freestyle tournament in the spring. St. Johns can't hold more mats in a dual setting.
Move... the... venue...

Might alleviate some of these problems...
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