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  #61  
Old 01-03-19, 09:09 AM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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[QUOTE=Kevin Contos;7223725]The more the ref can let the wrestlers know the situations the better. There is no question about wrestling positions if the ref allows the boys to know "that's 2 red", "you're still in bounds", "let him in", "nothing yet", "holding 2 green", "keep it leagal",etc. This allows for both wrestlers to know exactly what the ref is looking at and how he is interpreting the situations he is seeing without stopping any wrestling. Just my opinion.

Very well put. It's called being proactive.
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  #62  
Old 01-03-19, 09:01 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Notice that I did not say that I tell a wrestler to release a leg. I tell them to clear the leg and this happens only when the leg gets trapped in the course of wrestling. If they are holding the leg in such a way that "release" is the word to be used, I would say nothing.
Read again how the situation was presented.
If the leg needs to be released, that is up to the coach.
The other thing I point out is to ask how you would feel if it was your wrestler in this situation but didn't know about it? Would you want your wrestler to be penalized?
You're splitting hairs on this. Release is to let free and clear in the adverb form is to move away from. Your average person in that type of situation hears that and they let go of the leg, no matter the term used.

I, as a coach should know the rule. As I pointed out earlier, this is not something new and has been around for 5+ years. Coaches should know this and be "held responsible" by this point. I understand that some do not and some try to take advantage of less knowledgeable officials by yelling 5 seconds when a kid touches an ankle. That's on them. Not the official in the midst of a match. Sure, I would love for any official to coach my kid up and keep him from committing an infraction of any type by giving him specific directions. Danger cues, cues directed at BOTH wrestlers, or scoring cues are great and should be used. I don't think the above example is either of those three items.
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  #63  
Old 01-03-19, 09:36 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
You're splitting hairs on this. Release is to let free and clear in the adverb form is to move away from. Your average person in that type of situation hears that and they let go of the leg, no matter the term used.

I, as a coach should know the rule. As I pointed out earlier, this is not something new and has been around for 5+ years. Coaches should know this and be "held responsible" by this point. I understand that some do not and some try to take advantage of less knowledgeable officials by yelling 5 seconds when a kid touches an ankle. That's on them. Not the official in the midst of a match. Sure, I would love for any official to coach my kid up and keep him from committing an infraction of any type by giving him specific directions. Danger cues, cues directed at BOTH wrestlers, or scoring cues are great and should be used. I don't think the above example is either of those three items.
You are beating dead horse and I am splitting hairs. Looks like we are simply viewing it differently. However, since I am the one on the mat, I get to do it the way I choose.
I am not sure what you are referring to as having been around for 5+ years but if you are talking about more than 5 seconds on the ankle, that has been part of the rules for all the time I have been an official and that is a lot longer than five years.
Again, read the original post concerning this situation. It made no reference to anyone holding an ankle.
With that I will continue to do as I have done in the past and I am done trying to make it any more clear.
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  #64  
Old 01-05-19, 04:23 AM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Release is to let free and clear in the adverb form is to move away from.
I could be wrong but I believe you have misunderstood the two different situations.

Situation #1: A wrestler is choosing to hold his opponents heal against his buttock by grasping the foot/ankle area. In this situation the top wrestler is actively using a potentially dangerous hold that he must release in 5 seconds or be hit with stalling. In this case Jim indicated that he would say nothing because the top wrestler is actively choosing to use a hold.

Situation #2: A wrestler releases his hold on the foot/ankle and moves up to attack the torso, arms, or head. However, in the process of moving up his opponents foot/ankle gets trapped by his thigh. This wrestler is not actively choosing a hold that is potentially dangerous but is inadvertently in that position. Similar to a ref warning a wrestler to "keep it legal" with an arm bar the ref tells the wrestler to clear the leg. These are in fact the exact same situations with the advent that trapping the leg for more than 5 sec has the added penalty of stalling. However, in both situation the reason for advising the wrestler is protection of their opponent from a potentially dangerous hold.

You can argue that because the trapped leg could include a stalling call that it is different, however, the reason for implementing the stalling call on the trapped leg was to prevent unnecessary strain on the knee joint, i.e. a potentially dangerous hold.

Personally, I think the instruction should be provided in both scenarios because the purpose of the instruction is to protect the athlete from injury. After breaking down your opponent holding on to the foot/ankle serves no purpose but is applying unnecessary strain on the knee joint but some novice wrestlers just don't know what to do next so they hang on to the foot/ankle to keep their opponent broken down. I think - tell them to release the foot to protect the knee and if they ignore the instruction then hit them with stalling. The first consideration should always be for the safety of the athletes regardless of whether it changes the outcome of a specific match.
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  #65  
Old 01-10-19, 09:31 AM
Paul Basinger Paul Basinger is offline
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New Stalling Rule

Food for thought wrestling fans, coaches, and officials. Watch the heels and toes of both wrestlers. On your heels...yep your probably backing out. On your toes digging in...yep that wrestlers moving forward trying to wrestle. Also whos changing angles and levels working for a set up. That's the active wrestler. My 2 cents.
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  #66  
Old 01-10-19, 12:27 PM
wjjsj wjjsj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Basinger View Post
Food for thought wrestling fans, coaches, and officials. Watch the heels and toes of both wrestlers. On your heels...yep your probably backing out. On your toes digging in...yep that wrestlers moving forward trying to wrestle. Also whos changing angles and levels working for a set up. That's the active wrestler. My 2 cents.
This!

Angles, levels, taking risks, and whom's side of the mat do we keep hanging out on. On your heels and bottom sticking out and back.
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  #67  
Old 01-11-19, 08:50 AM
NCAAOHref NCAAOHref is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
Thanks for the clarification on this. In my example I used trapping the foot with the thigh as this is probably the most common circumstance of confusion on stalling calls. If a wrestler has broken down his opponent using a tight waist and far ankle and then continued to hold the heel against the buttock with his hand; first it would be difficult to maintain the heel against the buttock continuously for 5 seconds with your hand and second if you did do this it would definitely look like stalling because you are not trying to improve your position - you are just hanging on the hips and putting unnecessary pressure on your opponents knee.

The more common circumstance is that the wrestler accidentally catches the foot with his thigh and then starts working up to get a bar or a wing or some other hold and is then called for stalling - their facial expression says it all - WTF!! As they typically have no idea what they have done wrong until someone explains it to them.


If the foot is CAUGHT there in a flurry, and it is clear to me the kid has no idea it is there, I will say WATCH the foot (heal) and give it a bit more than the internal 5 count going on in my head... if the kid uses the breakdown and traps it there, he doesn't get that "leeway"
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  #68  
Old 01-17-19, 08:39 AM
Shoot Shoot is offline
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I've watched over 150 matches so far with this new rule in place, I've came to the conclusion that it's not a very well thought out rule and is so wildly varied in terms of officiating that it's doing far more harm than good. Officials are far more involved in the final outcome of matches than they ever have been before and the calls are fundamentally changing the make-up of matches. I've seen kids called for stalls while trying to work mat returns (in the center of the mat), kids on top called for stalling while the bottom man is elbows in and face down, a kid who had 7 shot attempts (in on leg and points scored in one way or another every time) in 3 periods called for stalling despite working forward, and stalling called on a stand up attempt where the bottom man cut away and took three steps away from his opponent to clear his legs. To make matters worse no official I've seen all year has been consistent throughout a dual-meet with their calls and when at tournaments it becomes abundantly clear that each individual official has a wildly different set of criteria that constitutes stalling to them. We need to get this figured out because it's going to become a plague on our sport. You don't hear parents urging kids to take shot anymore, you hear them calling for stalling against the other kid on the mat. That's a travesty and not what wrestling is supposed to be.
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  #69  
Old 01-17-19, 08:59 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoot View Post
I've watched over 150 matches so far with this new rule in place, I've came to the conclusion that it's not a very well thought out rule and is so wildly varied in terms of officiating that it's doing far more harm than good. Officials are far more involved in the final outcome of matches than they ever have been before and the calls are fundamentally changing the make-up of matches. I've seen kids called for stalls while trying to work mat returns (in the center of the mat), kids on top called for stalling while the bottom man is elbows in and face down, a kid who had 7 shot attempts (in on leg and points scored in one way or another every time) in 3 periods called for stalling despite working forward, and stalling called on a stand up attempt where the bottom man cut away and took three steps away from his opponent to clear his legs. To make matters worse no official I've seen all year has been consistent throughout a dual-meet with their calls and when at tournaments it becomes abundantly clear that each individual official has a wildly different set of criteria that constitutes stalling to them. We need to get this figured out because it's going to become a plague on our sport. You don't hear parents urging kids to take shot anymore, you hear them calling for stalling against the other kid on the mat. That's a travesty and not what wrestling is supposed to be.
Interesting first post.
You give 4 or 5 situations where a stalling call was made yet not one of them involved the new NFHS stalling calls when going out of bounds. Seems like a different issue to me.
I can't address any of the situations you describe as I wasn't there. However I would say that every person is going to have different take on what they are seeing. I have long maintained that you could put 20 coaches in a room and they would not be able to agree on what was or wasn't stalling. Call it the human factor.
OTOH, maybe this was posted just to stir the pot?
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  #70  
Old 01-17-19, 09:17 AM
Shoot Shoot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Interesting first post.
You give 4 or 5 situations where a stalling call was made yet not one of them involved the new NFHS stalling calls when going out of bounds. Seems like a different issue to me.
I can't address any of the situations you describe as I wasn't there. However I would say that every person is going to have different take on what they are seeing. I have long maintained that you could put 20 coaches in a room and they would not be able to agree on what was or wasn't stalling. Call it the human factor.
OTOH, maybe this was posted just to stir the pot?
I realize that the "new" rule is the edge of the mat calls, and that is a whole other issue (going off the mat without a ton of action doesn't always constitute stalling and if you're pushing a kid off the mat he's backing off and vice-versa) but what I've seen actually out on the mats and heard from officials is that they are looking to call stalling more because of this rule. With every new rule and new interpretation officials become more and more involved in outcomes of matches. I can honestly say if I go back 5 years there's maybe one or two questionable calls I remember from an entire season, there's now one or two calls a night that fit that same criteria. And these aren't just nothing calls, these are match deciding calls in some instances.
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  #71  
Old 01-17-19, 12:05 PM
Caeruleus Leo Caeruleus Leo is offline
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Stalling is one of the most subjective calls in wrestling because...



No wonder there are problems if:
  • "Stalling is one of the most subjective calls in wrestling"
    and
  • "...he (the coach) is not allowed to question judgment,... inform him of the warning for misconduct."
My question is how are officials monitoring the application (or misapplication) of this call amongst themselves since there is no way for a coach to do it matside (no matter how respectful) without an immediate negative consequence?

The "Green Book" is a great resource for coaches, parents and athletes to gain insight into how officials are instructed to do an admittedly difficult and many times thankless job. While I think it does more to highlight the problem with this stalling issue (as opposed to solve it); I'd still encourage everyone to read it for a "peek behind the curtain" (see the link and excerpt below).


THE OHIO HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION APPROVED WRESTLING OFFICIATING MECHANICS & PROCEDURES 2018-19 SEASON
OHSAA Wrestling "Green Book"

STALLING
General Guidelines
The most difficult aspect of wrestling is to understand stalling. You must develop a philosophy that will assist in any and
all situations. This is where the best referees are recognized above the good referees.
  • Stalling is one of the most subjective calls in wrestling because:
  • No two officials call stalling identically
  • No two officials recognize stalling within the same time frame
  • Consistency with calling stalling is tough due to the different dynamics occurring in each match
  • The perspective of one coach with his wrestler's best interests in mind is always going to be different from the opposing coach’s perspective and from the man in the striped shirt
  • Because of these variables, stalling will always be a controversial call in high school wrestling ...
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