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  #1  
Old 02-05-19, 06:08 PM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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Division 3 State Duals seeding

There needs to be more transparency in the seeding criteria used by the OHSAA committee for the state duals. The criteria published isn’t nearly as black and white as that used for sectional tournaments. Their criteria directly from the OHSAA website rules says: “Seeding criteria includes: number of returning District Individual qualifiers and placers, number of returning State Individual Qualifiers and placers, the team’s dual record, and the team’s success in regular season tournaments.”
When comparing line by line the criteria for Division 3 I come up with the following:
Districts-
The 3 & 4 seed both return 7 qualifiers
The 3 seed returns 1 placer, the 4 returns 6 placers
State-
The 3 seed returns 1 qualifier, the 4 returns all 5 plus an alternate
The 3 seed returns 0 placers, the 4 returns all 4
The 3 seed placed 47th with 11pts, the 4 was 6th with 50pts
Record-
Unsure of the 3’s record, the 4 is 13-1 for 2018/19

I could continue but the point is that there is no clear criteria used and no process in place to appeal or discuss possible seeding errors. This is going to cause arguably the second and third best teams from competing head to head for a shot at the state finals.

Last edited by fireflyer7051; 02-05-19 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Typo
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  #2  
Old 02-05-19, 10:52 PM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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To add to this post:
The 2 seed and 4 seed both return 7 district qualifiers
The 2 seed only returns 3 district placers, the 4 seed returns 6 placers
The 2 seed only returns 3 state qualifiers, the 4 seed returns all 5 plus an alternate
The 2 seed only returns 3 state placers, the 4 seed returns all 4 state placers

There needs to be clear criteria and transparency in this process and a process to protest, object to or question a possible seeding error. The OHSAA published criteria that doesn’t follow them as stated, illustrated by the above two posts.
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  #3  
Old 02-06-19, 08:17 AM
TheStuff142 TheStuff142 is offline
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I could totally be wrong here...but I am pretty sure that the seeds in the State Duals are voted on by coaches paticipating in the final 8...and the criteria they use is their opinion/experience as to which team is the better dual team. The coaches are free to vote however they see the top 8 teams rank.
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  #4  
Old 02-06-19, 08:23 AM
madmaxrockatansky madmaxrockatansky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStuff142 View Post
I could totally be wrong here...but I am pretty sure that the seeds in the State Duals are voted on by coaches paticipating in the final 8...and the criteria they use is their opinion/experience as to which team is the better dual team. The coaches are free to vote however they see the top 8 teams rank.
I'm pretty sure that that's incorrect. As far as I know, there is a committee that looks through the criteria and votes, but I don't think the coaches of participating teams are involved. (I have a feeling that we would see a lot more controversy if that were the case.)
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  #5  
Old 02-06-19, 08:33 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStuff142 View Post
I could totally be wrong here...but I am pretty sure that the seeds in the State Duals are voted on by coaches paticipating in the final 8...and the criteria they use is their opinion/experience as to which team is the better dual team. The coaches are free to vote however they see the top 8 teams rank.
That is how regional seeding gets done for sure. However, I understand, like mentioned above, that the final 8 gets seeded by a committee based on criteria (# of SPs, SQs, SAs, etc).
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  #6  
Old 02-06-19, 08:59 AM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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No per OHSAA the final 8 seeding is done by a committee and there is ZERO process in place to object to a seeding. Clearly they didnít follow their published criteria this year. Line by line the 4 seed holds higher criteria than both the 2 and the 3.
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  #7  
Old 02-06-19, 09:01 AM
fireflyer7051 fireflyer7051 is offline
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All of my stats came directly from Baumspage from last years district tourneys, and state data from the OHSAA page. The seeding criteria I’m referencing comes directly from the OHSAA’s page.
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  #8  
Old 02-06-19, 11:21 AM
Gamewrestler Gamewrestler is offline
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This is why wrestling numbers are going down! Kids are getting screwed over by the politics just like the officials. It’s all about the popularity contest and its ruining our sport.
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  #9  
Old 02-06-19, 12:04 PM
TheStuff142 TheStuff142 is offline
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Yeah I was not at all sure on that seeding at the final round. Didn't do any research at all...just assumed it was same as regional level...which makes more sense than a committee of old men out of touch with the sport.

Kids getting screwed is not the reason numbers are in decline in my mind. Many other reasons...I don't think 9 year olds worry about "getting screwed" by politics.
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  #10  
Old 02-06-19, 12:39 PM
Gamewrestler Gamewrestler is offline
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Look at some of the state tournament officials. The Mogadore kid got the shaft. It’s not the only reason but it adds to it. The bad seeds hurt the young kids on teams.
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  #11  
Old 02-06-19, 12:39 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamewrestler View Post
This is why wrestling numbers are going down! Kids are getting screwed over by the politics just like the officials. Itís all about the popularity contest and its ruining our sport.
I don't normally weigh in on anything other than basic facts or supporting kids in the sport, but this statement is kind of ridiculous. Numbers in wrestling are going down because the top 8 teams in the state at each division are being seeded 4th instead of 3rd?

Come on now...
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  #12  
Old 02-06-19, 01:22 PM
roverwrestling roverwrestling is offline
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I have NEVER responded / posted anything other then announcing tournaments, scheduling etc.
In this case it does hurt the sport. I have kids on the team that only came out to fill a weight class or stuck it out with a sub .500 records so that they could help our team reach the state finals, something no Rootstown team has done in ANY sport. These kids probably wont make the state tournament, this IS there state tournament.
Why publish the seeding criteria if your not going to follow it?
Why seed at all?
You seed because you want the two best teams to meet in the finals.
We lost our 152 pounder, possible for the year at the regionals, this trip will cost our school thousands of dollars in bussing, hotel and food.
Rootstown will show up ready to battle and this will be my only response to this thread.
With that being said we will think long and hard about entering the duals next year unless something changes in the seeding process.

Coach Wise
Rootstown
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  #13  
Old 02-06-19, 01:30 PM
Gamewrestler Gamewrestler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
I don't normally weigh in on anything other than basic facts or supporting kids in the sport, but this statement is kind of ridiculous. Numbers in wrestling are going down because the top 8 teams in the state at each division are being seeded 4th instead of 3rd?

Come on now...
When did I say that???? Iím making a general point about kids and the sport.
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  #14  
Old 02-06-19, 01:39 PM
Rerun Rerun is offline
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Can't dodge em might as well wrestle them. By the way rootstown was one of the most unsportsmanlike teams I have seen in a time. They do have some good wrestlers and classy kids but there 182 the way he acted after dodging kaden Kidd from norwayne was uncalled for . Can't dodge them at districts
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  #15  
Old 02-06-19, 01:52 PM
1_beast 1_beast is offline
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maybe the seeding was karma...the lack of sportsmanship by the wrestlers AND coaches at the regional level was ludicrous.
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  #16  
Old 02-06-19, 01:55 PM
Streak35 Streak35 is offline
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The goal should be to win not to participate. To win you have to beat everyone. I know it sucks to get put with the 1 seed in the semi finals but you have to beat them to win.
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  #17  
Old 02-06-19, 02:10 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Sorry, maybe I am just "old school", despite being only mid 30's....I am not into the participation ribbon mantra...I respect everyone's opinions and never believe mine has to always be right...

But it is hard to believe that a group of kids ONLY stuck out a sport to help the team reach the finals of the state duals....so the kids said "I will wrestle to help the team take 2nd"? Sounds like they believe they have zero shot of winning, otherwise it wouldn't matter if you face top seed in semi's or finals...

If taking 3rd instead of 2nd is a reason to quit the sport or quit the tournament, then so be it, but I would never have that mindset in a million years and I wouldn't want my wrestlers to either.
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  #18  
Old 02-06-19, 02:25 PM
Gamewrestler Gamewrestler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_beast View Post
maybe the seeding was karma...the lack of sportsmanship by the wrestlers AND coaches at the regional level was ludicrous.
I was not there to see what you are claiming. I was in beachwood but I call tell you this we have seen rootstown at a few places this year and never had a problem I have even seen them help Mogadore kids and Ravenna kids after matches. Sounds like Rootstown beat your team and your mad!

So the argument is they are poor sports so they should not follow seeding criteria or that u have to beat the best anyways so why seed at all???
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  #19  
Old 02-06-19, 02:31 PM
1_beast 1_beast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamewrestler View Post
I was not there to see what you are claiming. I was in beachwood but I call tell you this we have seen rootstown at a few places this year and never had a problem I have even seen them help Mogadore kids and Ravenna kids after matches. Sounds like Rootstown beat your team and your mad!

So the argument is they are poor sports so they should not follow seeding criteria or that u have to beat the best anyways so why seed at all???
Certainly no ill feeling over the loss, they have a very good team.
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  #20  
Old 02-06-19, 02:38 PM
chinwhip chinwhip is offline
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Is D3 even deep enough to support a successful State Dual Tournament? I say no. Besides Genoa, Edison and this year Rootstown the teams significantly drop as far as filling 14 weight classes with quality kids. I say scrap the whole D3 state dual all together and give the kids a week or two off to recharge
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  #21  
Old 02-06-19, 02:56 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chinwhip View Post
Is D3 even deep enough to support a successful State Dual Tournament? I say no. Besides Genoa, Edison and this year Rootstown the teams significantly drop as far as filling 14 weight classes with quality kids. I say scrap the whole D3 state dual all together and give the kids a week or two off to recharge
Isn't that a true statement in any team sport at the lowest level? D7 in football? D4 in basketball/baseball/etc? Not sure we should "scrap" the state tournament in every sport at the lowest level.

Although, 7 divisions for football is ridiculous, 5 or 6 tops.
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  #22  
Old 02-06-19, 05:41 PM
cruisemandp cruisemandp is offline
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Being from Blanchester... we are glad to have the opportunity to be there.... just sayin!
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  #23  
Old 02-08-19, 11:14 AM
Kraken1 Kraken1 is offline
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Fair

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
Sorry, maybe I am just "old school", despite being only mid 30's....I am not into the participation ribbon mantra...I respect everyone's opinions and never believe mine has to always be right...

But it is hard to believe that a group of kids ONLY stuck out a sport to help the team reach the finals of the state duals....so the kids said "I will wrestle to help the team take 2nd"? Sounds like they believe they have zero shot of winning, otherwise it wouldn't matter if you face top seed in semi's or finals...

If taking 3rd instead of 2nd is a reason to quit the sport or quit the tournament, then so be it, but I would never have that mindset in a million years and I wouldn't want my wrestlers to either.
I think what the Rootstown coach meat was, yes - a couple of the kids on the team DID just wrestle to help the team. I know this team and these kids and that's the only reason a couple of them stuck with it. Not to "take 2nd" but to help their teammates and their team go as far as they can go. So it's ridiculous the OHSAA shafted these kids by not following their own seeding criteria. Each team should be able to advance as far as possible based on merit and seeding criteria. If you're going to have the finals in the second round of the tournament why bother having seeding criteria at all?

So while I bet these kids will always have a winning mindset, I can understand why teams might start rethinking if this tournament is worth it. If the OHSAA treats it like a joke and doesn't follow it's own guidelines, why should teams not treat it like a joke as well?
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  #24  
Old 02-10-19, 07:16 AM
Crimsonblooded Crimsonblooded is offline
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You only control what you can control and what you can't you just let everyone know how you got shafted. So we all understand you guys got cheated. Good luck and go out and wrestle. Maybe tell your guys you don't always get dealt a good hand but you sit at the table and do your best. Kinda of a life lesson there. Life isn't always fair but you do your best. Good luck again Rootstown.
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  #25  
Old 02-10-19, 08:13 PM
cometrules cometrules is offline
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The way the D3 duals turned out they look like they were seeded right.
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  #26  
Old 02-10-19, 09:30 PM
Boro Fan Boro Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cometrules View Post
The way the D3 duals turned out they look like they were seeded right.
How did you determine that the #3 and #4 seeds seemed right?
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  #27  
Old 02-10-19, 11:14 PM
cometrules cometrules is offline
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What I was saying so with the score so bad nobody was on the mats with Genoa. It didn't matter the seeds and I hate to say it but Edison was the second best team so it didn't matter 3 and 4.
Im not sure Genoa had a close dual all year when they had starers in. Genoa should have gone D2 and finished second with our line-up.
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  #28  
Old 02-11-19, 08:11 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cometrules View Post
The way the D3 duals turned out they look like they were seeded right.
Agree.
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