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  #61  
Old 11-04-17, 07:49 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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The top 5% already fund more than half of the government's expenses.

How much more do you people want the successful to pay simply because they're more successful than you? As I said earlier, the appropriate response is "thank you" not "may i have some more?"

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  #62  
Old 11-04-17, 08:04 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
The Bible says tithing is 10%, essentially a "flat tax" and recognizes that the wealthy will naturally contribute more income as 10% of more is "more". So on that we agree, move everything to a flat tax that everyone pays, and I will less grudgingly pass on my share.

I have no problem returning to begging as a form of social justice. If you can't/won't work you need to actively do something to acquire an income. Hiring activists and political action committees is organized crime, not begging. I think if people had to beg for their charity, they'd be more likely to view it as limited duration and causing hardship to the people that they know. Those people may also judge them as non-deserving of charity because they aren't fixing their problems they just want them subsidized.

I do believe in charity, but charity is NOT forced theft of someone's wages. The government takes the money it redistributes BEFORE the Taxpayer sees the money. The government doles it out for food, healthcare, education, etc. for others before the Taxpayer has met their own family's obligations. Charity is what one does voluntarily, in service to others. Government sponsored welfare is simply theft without a mask.
You don't get to cherry-pick if you choose to engage in a discussion over such a broad scope as "Biblical principles". Maybe this will help - https://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...delines-Giving

Quote:
Proportional giving actually turns out to be a fairer standard than the traditional tithe. Whereas a fixed 10 percent would most likely be negligible for someone with an income of $100,000, it could well cripple a person with an income of $10,000. This is why Jesus had such high praise for the widow who contributed too small copper coins to the temple treasury. She gave that which provided for her daily necessities ("all she had to live on," Lk 21:4), while the rich contributed out of their surplus. And while both may have given 10 percent, proportionately the widow put in more than all the others combined (Lk 21:3). This accords with Jesus' teaching elsewhere that we are responsible in direct proportion to how God has blessed us: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded" (Lk 12:48).

Second, needs are to be met out of a person's surplus, not necessary income (that which one needs for life's basic necessities; v. 14). The Macedonian churches, in giving out of their poverty, were the exception rather than the rule. The norm is the Corinthians' plenty supplying what the Judean churches need, so that in turn their plenty can supply what [the Corinthians] need (v. 14).
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  #63  
Old 11-04-17, 08:11 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
The top 5% already fund more than half of the government's expenses.

How much more do you people want the successful to pay simply because they're more successful than you? As I said earlier, the appropriate response is "thank you" not "may i have some more?"

That is, of the portion that actually is funded ? Is that what you mean ?
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  #64  
Old 11-04-17, 08:16 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Tax cuts for the well off???

How do you cut taxes for the 40% of Americans who don't pay income taxes
I'd start by taking away the "refund" to those that paid nothing. How does that line read...? "You may be entitled to a refund even if you paid no taxes"?
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  #65  
Old 11-04-17, 08:24 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. Let's make it a 9 figure payday....... Let's say the CEO has options for $200M of stock and their price is $100M (100% profit). In order to actually GET the stock they have to purchase it. If they have $100M laying around, they can self finance the purchase. They may have enough credit to borrow the $100M. If they don't have the cash or the credit, they can do a same-day sale and exercise and sell their options in a single transaction.

From a tax perspective, the same day is the easiest to perform but the most expensive from a tax standpoint. You are on the hook for 100% of the proceeds at your established tax rate - in this case 39.6% - so your net is roughly $60M on a $200M deal.

The other 2 will vary based on how soon you sell the stock - less than a year it looks like the same-day transaction. After a year, you pay 15% on the net. So you keep about $85M if the price stayed the same, but it could have gone up or down - meaning you could have lost money on the transaction as well. But 15% is the tax rate.

But your average plumber makes about $51K annually, on average someone at that income level pays about 7.1% in income taxes. I call bull on the supposed lower tax rate of the CEO options.
Does one typically exercise an option and hold over a year when a dip is anticipated ? I'd think not. Are earnings projections always accurate, or might they be a little rosier than is realistic on occasion ? C'mon..

Options available solely due to an individual's position and as a form of compensation should be treated as income. Pure and simple.
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  #66  
Old 11-04-17, 10:08 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Does one typically exercise an option and hold over a year when a dip is anticipated ? I'd think not. Are earnings projections always accurate, or might they be a little rosier than is realistic on occasion ? C'mon..

Options available solely due to an individual's position and as a form of compensation should be treated as income. Pure and simple.
So you conveniently forget the fact that even the 15% paid in federal income taxes by the CEO on exercised options held over a year is taxed twice as much as the earnings of your average plumber....... isn't that something you hate in others?

If a CEO is trading based on anticipation of results then they are going to pay more in taxes, even more in fines, and spend a little time in a small, sparsely furnished apartment. If they and their executive team are participating in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge attempt to inflate the stock price, that's not like committing a felony immigration crime, stock crimes actually get prosecuted.

CEO (and all principals/leaders) sales are announced prior to their occurrence and many are based on a set timeframe (5% of shares every 6 months, etc.), others are guided by their employment contracts. Some aren't even sold on the open market, they are bought back by the existing owners to minimize dilution of their holdings.

You might get away with a poorly projected guidance for a quarter or two, but then people start asking serious questions about your methods and what you are basing your projections on.

Your last paragraph has merit. If you are doing away with stock options, there should be limits on delayed compensation and some of the vehicles used by athletes, entertainers, lawyers, bankers, etc. to minimize their tax burdens. To make it simple, everyone should pay a set percentage of their income as taxes, perhaps everyone gets $25K tax free, and then pays 15% of everything over that number. Personally, I think the tax rate should not be in the hands of the legislature - put it in the hands of the people to set what the government's reach into their pockets should be and then let the government figure out how to balance the budget by controlling spending and how to divvy up the revenues.
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  #67  
Old 11-05-17, 05:59 PM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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I still have a problem with the fact that someone making the same wages as I do but lives in a high tax state will end up paying less fed taxes than I do. The fact that the state i live in does with less which means I am no doubt am getting less benefits from my state. Does this mean i should pay more to the Fed Govt then? Maybe my state does a better job and does not waste my money I pay them. Does this mean I should pay more to the Fed Govt than someone else making the same money as I.
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  #68  
Old 11-05-17, 06:13 PM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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I think it means you should move
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  #69  
Old 11-06-17, 04:39 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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No i do not need to move. I just do not think a person should have to pay more Fed taxes just because he lives in FL and not NY or NJ
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  #70  
Old 11-06-17, 09:03 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19AL63 View Post
I still have a problem with the fact that someone making the same wages as I do but lives in a high tax state will end up paying less fed taxes than I do. The fact that the state i live in does with less which means I am no doubt am getting less benefits from my state. Does this mean i should pay more to the Fed Govt then? Maybe my state does a better job and does not waste my money I pay them. Does this mean I should pay more to the Fed Govt than someone else making the same money as I.
I left Ohio in 2013 for a state with no state or local income taxes. I paid a little more sales tax while in Texas but my take home pay increased by almost $10K that year. I got just as many benefits from the government in Texas (law enforcement - that I never called, fire protection - that I never used, welfare that I never used, education that I never used, I did visit state parks and memorials, etc.) as I did in Ohio but then again I work and pay taxes so I cost a state very little - I just subsidized others less than I did before.
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  #71  
Old 11-06-17, 10:31 AM
19AL63 19AL63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
I left Ohio in 2013 for a state with no state or local income taxes. I paid a little more sales tax while in Texas but my take home pay increased by almost $10K that year. I got just as many benefits from the government in Texas (law enforcement - that I never called, fire protection - that I never used, welfare that I never used, education that I never used, I did visit state parks and memorials, etc.) as I did in Ohio but then again I work and pay taxes so I cost a state very little - I just subsidized others less than I did before.
That is my point if you and I make the same wages you should not have to pay more in Fed. taxes than I do just because you live in Texas.
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  #72  
Old 11-06-17, 11:49 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
The top 5% already fund more than half of the government's expenses.

How much more do you people want the successful to pay simply because they're more successful than you? As I said earlier, the appropriate response is "thank you" not "may i have some more?"

This chart needs to be on the front page of every paper, the lead on every newscast. People have no idea how good they have it here.
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  #73  
Old 11-06-17, 11:51 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
This chart needs to be on the front page of every paper, the lead on every newscast. People have no idea how good they have it here.
SOME people have it good, for about 10% of us it's slavery.
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  #74  
Old 11-07-17, 12:55 AM
the_big_toe the_big_toe is offline
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Originally Posted by domi View Post
Ask Warren Buffet and his secretary.
While it is technically possible that Warren Buffet pays a lower rate than his secretary, the way he claimed to substantiate that claim was completely bogus and makes me doubt the veracity of the claim. He claimed to compare his income tax rate, which he says he got from a letter from the IRS, with the tax rate for his secretary, which he claims he got from her pay stub (or her W2, not sure which, but really no difference, since the pay stubs feed directly into the W2s). Furthermore, he admits that he included not only her FICA and Medicare withholdings, but also the employer portions of FICA and Medicare.

Without even going into the validity of treating FICA and Medicare taxes the same as income taxes, the fact is that he has no idea from her W2 what his secretary's final income taxes paid might be, or what her tax rate might be (since she likely has a spouse that could change the calculations drastically).

Like I said, while it is technically possible that his claim might be true in extremely unusual circumstances, he really had no way of knowing if his claim was even close to reality.
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  #75  
Old 11-07-17, 05:04 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
SOME people have it good, for about 10% of us it's slavery.
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  #76  
Old 11-07-17, 06:41 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Slavery is hyperbole. Forced charity would be more accurate.

It's undeniable that about 5% of the country financially supports the bottom 50% in the interest of the government trying to make things "fair."
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  #77  
Old 11-07-17, 07:18 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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And with his measure of "forced charity", SWMC still "has it good", right ?
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  #78  
Old 11-07-17, 07:24 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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I just don't find it shocking that those of us with 95% of the disposable income pay 90% of the tax dollars.......it's kind of a no-brainer that it would work that way in a society that tries to be somewhat just economically.

Do we have the richest "poor people" in the world ? Sure.

Is that necessarily bad ?
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  #79  
Old 11-07-17, 07:43 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Funny, it seems a no-brainer to me that the fairest system is where everyone pays the same proportion.

It also seems a no-brainer that everyone should have skin in the game.
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  #80  
Old 11-07-17, 08:14 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Funny, it seems a no-brainer to me that the fairest system is where everyone pays the same proportion.
That's the rub, when you only have one vote to cast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
It also seems a no-brainer that everyone should have skin in the game.
You only have an argument if there is no SS/Medicare withholding (essentially regressive taxes), or if those monies were completely separated from the rest of the budget. Seeing as the incoming withholdings are paid to retired and disabled and the remaining surplus is loaned to the Treasury in an inflationary environment, I see skin in the game


And SWMC has it good, right ?.........except that he loses sleep over someone in Ohio having a write-off of state tax to pay less Federal on the same earnings.... poor guy
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  #81  
Old 11-07-17, 08:23 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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You'll find no arguments from me about doing away with the Ponzi schemes that are SS and Medicare.

Novel idea, you're responsible for paying for your own healthcare and retirement and shouldn't rely on the government to plan it for you.
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  #82  
Old 11-07-17, 09:20 PM
domi domi is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
You'll find no arguments from me about doing away with the Ponzi schemes that are SS and Medicare.

Novel idea, you're responsible for paying for your own healthcare and retirement and shouldn't rely on the government to plan it for you.
If that ain't Christian I don't know what is!
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  #83  
Old 11-07-17, 09:36 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Where did I say I was Christian?
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  #84  
Old 11-07-17, 09:48 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
You'll find no arguments from me about doing away with the Ponzi schemes that are SS and Medicare.

Novel idea, you're responsible for paying for your own healthcare and retirement and shouldn't rely on the government to plan it for you.
Never gonna happen without a complete collapse/reboot. Quit deflecting with irrelevant implausibilities. They exist, they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, and are only likely to be subject to further abuses.

They^ are essentially a regressive income tax (another reason that they aren't going away) that you lot of greedheads ignore when you get your 47% crying towels out. Everyone with a job "has skin in the game". Just stop.
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  #85  
Old 11-07-17, 09:51 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Where did I say I was Christian?
I knew you were a godless millennial. Where has he been ?
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  #86  
Old 11-07-17, 10:04 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
are only likely to be subject to further abuses.
Aren't you the one who said Medicare was the most efficient healthcare provider in history?

Quote:
Everyone with a job "has skin in the game"
False. If you get more from the government than you give, you are a taker and living off those who aren't. Pretty simple.
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  #87  
Old 11-08-17, 05:43 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Aren't you the one who said Medicare was the most efficient healthcare provider in history?
In terms of real value of care delivered : total expenditure, yes -absolutely.

It doesn't mean that the politicos playing with the funds before they get actually into the system aren't using the money to play accounting games for a while. Don't be obtuse here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
False. If you get more from the government than you give, you are a taker and living off those who aren't. Pretty simple.
Correct.

Not all benefit derived is easily quantifiable on a neat little statement, though. I'd hope you are bright enough to realize that, but I'm not so sure.
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  #88  
Old 11-08-17, 07:40 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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I am against this plain and simple. It will really screw me over. This whole graduate student thing is bull

Last edited by Arrogate; 11-08-17 at 07:55 AM.
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  #89  
Old 11-08-17, 09:07 AM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
In terms of real value of care delivered : total expenditure, yes -absolutely.
Christ

Quote:
Not all benefit derived is easily quantifiable on a neat little statement, though. I'd hope you are bright enough to realize that, but I'm not so sure.
Dollars in, dollars out. Not too terribly difficult to figure out.

Easy to see how Obama got you all riled up with the Romney's accurate "47%" statement. No wonder you voted to reelect the worst President of the last 100 years.
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  #90  
Old 11-08-17, 09:10 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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This whole "taxes" thing bores the hell out of me. They make it all needlessly complex to lull us into complacency. My observations are two fold:

* Amidst all the arguments and "facts" thrown back & forth between those that like this new plan and those that hate it the one thing that I know for sure is that the status quo on taxes is a lot worse then this new tax plan.

* The older I get the more I become convinced that the most dangerous people in our society, the ones that impede progress and useful change, are those that make GOOD the enemy of EXCELLENT.
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