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  #31  
Old 11-04-17, 09:14 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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The estate tax is not about tax dollars and the revenue it raises(very little). It's about a philosophical question of equity
Is it fair to double tax a small portion of society on dollars they paid taxes on once in an effort to avoid so called (dynasty's)

Save and try to pass it along to others and you are punished
I think part of people's embrace of this tax is that they don't understand it and part is base jealousy of those who pay it
Most states (Ohio) have done away with it
I don't understand the desire to continually punish a very small portion of society for their success
People will only pay so much regardless of what you legislate
Go back in time 50-60 years when we had tax rates in excess of 70%
People brought their effective rate to what they felt was acceptable through their own devices
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  #32  
Old 11-04-17, 09:44 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Nope....but this taxplan does not help most Trump voters much if at all. It does benefit the .01 percent tremendously and it increases the burden of debt for future generations. Impact on Wall Street good...main street/jobs minimal

The $300 family tax credit sunsets right around the time the estate tax is planned to be repealed under the bill. That tax applies only to individuals with more than $5.49 million or married couples with just under $11 million.

"It is striking that when they have to do sunset provisions to cram in and make the numbers work, what we learn is that tax cuts for the well-off are forever, tax cuts for major multinational companies are forever, and tax cuts for the middle class are small and ... can be cut off.
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  #33  
Old 11-04-17, 09:47 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
The estate tax is not about tax dollars and the revenue it raises(very little). It's about a philosophical question of equity
Is it fair to double tax a small portion of society on dollars they paid taxes on once in an effort to avoid so called (dynasty's)

Save and try to pass it along to others and you are punished
I think part of people's embrace of this tax is that they don't understand it and part is base jealousy of those who pay it
Most states (Ohio) have done away with it
I don't understand the desire to continually punish a very small portion of society for their success
People will only pay so much regardless of what you legislate
Go back in time 50-60 years when we had tax rates in excess of 70%
People brought their effective rate to what they felt was acceptable through their own devices
Fair point....not very Randian, but don't sell it as a middle class tax cut...sell it as way to stop punishing the wealthy.
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  #34  
Old 11-04-17, 09:50 AM
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Tax cuts for the well off???

How do you cut taxes for the 40% of Americans who don't pay income taxes
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  #35  
Old 11-04-17, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Fair point....not very Randian, but don't sell it as a middle class tax cut...sell it as way to stop punishing the wealthy.
Actually. Take the hard road. Address spending entitlements and Medicare
You can't continually put perfume in the steaming pile we call spending and expect it to smell better
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  #36  
Old 11-04-17, 10:02 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Actually. Take the hard road. Address spending entitlements and Medicare
You can't continually put perfume in the steaming pile we call spending and expect it to smell better
A) Directly contridicts a populist President's core message to his voters
B) Even so when I am in debt I do not look for ways to decrease my income. I would increase short term and look for balance.
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  #37  
Old 11-04-17, 10:13 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Both Democrats and republicans admit it's spending not revenue
Neither will address the problem because it's committing political suicide
And really it's not a cut. It's setting things back to where they were before the democrats and president Obama took office. Need to learn to live within our means
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  #38  
Old 11-04-17, 10:50 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
The estate tax is not about tax dollars and the revenue it raises(very little). It's about a philosophical question of equity
Is it fair to double tax a small portion of society on dollars they paid taxes on once in an effort to avoid so called (dynasty's)
Only if one considers them to have been under-taxed in the first place. Or if one believes that they have received disproportionate benefit for participating in our economy through influence and opportunity that is not truly available to all citizens. This kind of thing has to happen when executives are permitted to pay themselves in a manner that is only subject to capital gains taxes. We have a tremendous rolling national deficit, in case you missed that.

The ability to amass great heaps of wealth is probably a decent litmus test for my two qualifiers. I'm sure some honest folks could come up with a few others.

Inheritance taxes should be applied in a progressive manner just like income taxes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Save and try to pass it along to others and you are punished
I think part of people's embrace of this tax is that they don't understand it and part is base jealousy of those who pay it
Most states (Ohio) have done away with it
I don't understand the desire to continually punish a very small portion of society for their success
People will only pay so much regardless of what you legislate
Go back in time 50-60 years when we had tax rates in excess of 70%
People brought their effective rate to what they felt was acceptable through their own devices
No one is being punished. Climb down from that cross. A better man has already been there.

CEOs exercising stock options for 6, 7, and 8 figure pay days are taxed at a lower rate than the friggin' plumber that fixes the leak under my sink, for God's sake. WTH is wrong with some of you people ? Are you stupid ? If you aren't worth multiple millions, I say you're clueless.

One of the basic Biblical principles is more should be asked from those of us with greater blessings in life. It's even applied to going beyond tithing in New Testament thought. The church and begging was the social safety net in those times, now it's gubmint. These wealthiest individuals have no qualms about using gubmint to build their wealth.

Some "conservatives" like to remind us that the Nation was founded upon Biblical principles, but I guess that there are different limits for everyone.
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  #39  
Old 11-04-17, 10:54 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Stock options are subject to amt so your hypothesis is incorrect. So I guess it's you that's stupid. Don't try to debate things you don't understand or have no knowledge about
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  #40  
Old 11-04-17, 10:58 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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And yes it is punishment. There is a moral obligation to use those tax dollars effectively and efficiently that is ignored. That's immoral also. Get off your high horse. It's a proven fact that conservatives are more generous than liberals when it comes to charity. Can you say hypocrite
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  #41  
Old 11-04-17, 11:01 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Stock options are subject to amt so your hypothesis is incorrect. So I guess it's you that's stupid. Don't try to debate things you don't understand or have knowledge about
But to what extent, and what ability to shelter beneath the rate paid by my plumber ?

Have an answer there, or are you going to pretend to be content with your petty deflection ?
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  #42  
Old 11-04-17, 11:03 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
And yes it is punishment. There is a moral obligation to use those tax dollars effectively and efficiently that is ignored. That's immoral also. Get off your high horse. It's a proven fact that conservatives are more generous than liberals when it comes to charity. Can you say hypocrite
So fix government. That^ has nothing to do with some that are able to exploit the system from the upper echelons

You people that say "Look at those crooks and ignore my favorite crooks because they pay me dividends" are pathetic.
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  #43  
Old 11-04-17, 11:21 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
But to what extent, and what ability to shelter beneath the rate paid by my plumber ?

Have an answer there, or are you going to pretend to be content with your petty deflection ?
I'm content with the facts. He made a ludicrous statement that's the problem. Learn a little about how our tax system works. I know it's hard. It's complicated ......if your going to spout nonsense do it loud and with authority. People will believe you. Sounds like our politicians
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  #44  
Old 11-04-17, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
But to what extent, and what ability to shelter beneath the rate paid by my plumber ?

Have an answer there, or are you going to pretend to be content with your petty deflection ?
So tell me exactly and specifically this hypothetical person shelters their rate below that of a plumber. Go for it.
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  #45  
Old 11-04-17, 12:54 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
I think part of people's embrace of this tax is that they don't understand it and part is base jealousy of those who pay it
I'd say it's 80% the latter and about 20% the former.

Quote:
I don't understand the desire to continually punish a very small portion of society for their success
I think you know the answer based on your assessment above.

The wealthy already pay a disproportionate amount of the taxes that fund most of the programs and things the middle and lower class uses. You'd think the appropriate response would be to say "thank you" and move on. But no, the vultures want to take even more of their [already taxed] money just because they die.

The estate tax is theft, plain and simple.
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  #46  
Old 11-04-17, 01:05 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
I'd say it's 80% the latter and about 20% the former.



I think you know the answer based on your assessment above.

The wealthy already pay a disproportionate amount of the taxes that fund most of the programs and things the middle and lower class uses. You'd think the appropriate response would be to say "thank you" and move on. But no, the vultures want to take even more of their [already taxed] money just because they die.

The estate tax is theft, plain and simple.
The wealthy are doing OK....and benefit greatly on the system - income is huge and growing...and consolidating. They cannot produce income without the middle and lower classes so it cuts both ways. Thank you's all around. The difference is the wealthy buy the politicians and no one represents the middle and lower classes. How is that coal boom going WVA?
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  #47  
Old 11-04-17, 01:52 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
So tell me exactly and specifically this hypothetical person shelters their rate below that of a plumber. Go for it.
I believe the capital gains tax rate is 20%. So that would be less than a person with 40k in taxable income who is paying at a rate of 25%.
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  #48  
Old 11-04-17, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I believe the capital gains tax rate is 20%. So that would be less than a person with 40k in taxable income who is paying at a rate of 25%.
Wrong
Gains are taxed as capital. Correct BUT you have a different basis for regular gains and amt gains. So try again
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  #49  
Old 11-04-17, 02:49 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Wrong
Gains are taxed as capital. Correct BUT you have a different basis for regular gains and amt gains. So try again
If my rates were wrong please show me where.
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  #50  
Old 11-04-17, 02:55 PM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
If my rates were wrong please show me where.
Nothing wrong with your rates. It's in the calculations themselves
It effectively coverts it to amt income which is taxed at a rate higher than 25%. I assume you are talking ISOs since nonquals are taxed at ordinary rates the effective rate is higher due to the different basis
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  #51  
Old 11-04-17, 03:04 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
Nothing wrong with your rates. It's in the calculations themselves
It effectively coverts it to amt income which is taxed at a rate higher than 25%. I assume you are talking ISOs since nonquals are taxed at ordinary rates the effective rate is higher due to the different basis
I don't believe stock options are included as income if they're not sold within a year. After a year they're taxed under the capital gains rate. It's been a while since my tax accounting class though so I could be wrong.
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  #52  
Old 11-04-17, 03:09 PM
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They are capital. But you have a higher basis than an ordinary capital gain basis. You use an alternative basis. An AMT basis which makes your effective rate higher. You still use capital gains rates but the AMT basis which is different effectively increase the rate past 20%
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  #53  
Old 11-04-17, 03:30 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post

One of the basic Biblical principles is more should be asked from those of us with greater blessings in life. It's even applied to going beyond tithing in New Testament thought. The church and begging was the social safety net in those times, now it's gubmint. These wealthiest individuals have no qualms about using gubmint to build their wealth.

Some "conservatives" like to remind us that the Nation was founded upon Biblical principles, but I guess that there are different limits for everyone.
All I can say to this is........

Very well put.
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  #54  
Old 11-04-17, 03:40 PM
domi domi is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
So tell me exactly and specifically this hypothetical person shelters their rate below that of a plumber. Go for it.
Ask Warren Buffet and his secretary.
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  #55  
Old 11-04-17, 06:50 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by Monclova Steve View Post
All I can say to this is........

Very well put.
I will pizz off most everyone if you read enough of my posts. You've seemed to find me quite objectionable on other occasions

Did you notice that our resident tax lawyer ignored my left-handed reference to the fact that FICA, as it dumps into the general budget with no guarantees, is essentially a regressive income tax ?
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  #56  
Old 11-04-17, 06:51 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Is there anything more complicated and has little to do with "fixing" anything than this tax reform bill?

The truth is, most of us don't pay income tax. In fact, the wealthy pay more than their fair share, but no one wants to say that.

Most of these changes, help a little here, hurt a little there and is basically just a bunch of politicians wasting their time moving money around.
You want to fix Washington? Level the tax playing field, figure out a number that everyone would have to pay to fund the government (5%, 10%, 20%, 30%.....) and nail that target on every working person's back. Then see how much support for additional taxes like for Obamascam, etc. there REALLY is when it's coming out of everyone's pocket as an equal percentage.

You want to fix it? Make the only "official" income tax that which is needed to run the government - military, courts, etc. Salaries and goods (no welfare, no highways, etc.) that number is probably around 12%.

Make everything else an annual pledge, if you want to pay for welfare, Obamascam, etc. you can volunteer a payroll deduction for that. You can also choose zero. See how "generous" people are when it's their own money being wasted.
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  #57  
Old 11-04-17, 06:55 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by HTFF View Post
They are capital. But you have a higher basis than an ordinary capital gain basis. You use an alternative basis. An AMT basis which makes your effective rate higher. You still use capital gains rates but the AMT basis which is different effectively increase the rate past 20%

>20% on those 7 figure bumps?! How will those poor punished folks be supported in the manner to which they have become accustomed?!?!

A plumber and a nurse in good health with grown kids and a mortgage near it's end could easily find themselves in the 28% bracket.
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  #58  
Old 11-04-17, 07:03 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
You want to fix Washington? Level the tax playing field, figure out a number that everyone would have to pay to fund the government (5%, 10%, 20%, 30%.....) and nail that target on every working person's back. Then see how much support for additional taxes like for Obamascam, etc. there REALLY is when it's coming out of everyone's pocket as an equal percentage.

You want to fix it? Make the only "official" income tax that which is needed to run the government - military, courts, etc. Salaries and goods (no welfare, no highways, etc.) that number is probably around 12%.

Make everything else an annual pledge, if you want to pay for welfare, Obamascam, etc. you can volunteer a payroll deduction for that. You can also choose zero. See how "generous" people are when it's their own money being wasted.
Yeah, Rome taxed it's conquered subjects at a flat rate. Seems legit.
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  #59  
Old 11-04-17, 07:22 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
CEOs exercising stock options for 6, 7, and 8 figure pay days are taxed at a lower rate than the friggin' plumber that fixes the leak under my sink, for God's sake. WTH is wrong with some of you people ? Are you stupid ? If you aren't worth multiple millions, I say you're clueless.
.......
It's not as black and white as you make it out to be. Let's make it a 9 figure payday....... Let's say the CEO has options for $200M of stock and their price is $100M (100% profit). In order to actually GET the stock they have to purchase it. If they have $100M laying around, they can self finance the purchase. They may have enough credit to borrow the $100M. If they don't have the cash or the credit, they can do a same-day sale and exercise and sell their options in a single transaction.

From a tax perspective, the same day is the easiest to perform but the most expensive from a tax standpoint. You are on the hook for 100% of the proceeds at your established tax rate - in this case 39.6% - so your net is roughly $60M on a $200M deal.

The other 2 will vary based on how soon you sell the stock - less than a year it looks like the same-day transaction. After a year, you pay 15% on the net. So you keep about $85M if the price stayed the same, but it could have gone up or down - meaning you could have lost money on the transaction as well. But 15% is the tax rate.

But your average plumber makes about $51K annually, on average someone at that income level pays about 7.1% in income taxes. I call bull on the supposed lower tax rate of the CEO options.
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  #60  
Old 11-04-17, 07:36 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
.......
One of the basic Biblical principles is more should be asked from those of us with greater blessings in life. It's even applied to going beyond tithing in New Testament thought. The church and begging was the social safety net in those times, now it's gubmint. These wealthiest individuals have no qualms about using gubmint to build their wealth.

Some "conservatives" like to remind us that the Nation was founded upon Biblical principles, but I guess that there are different limits for everyone.
The Bible says tithing is 10%, essentially a "flat tax" and recognizes that the wealthy will naturally contribute more income as 10% of more is "more". So on that we agree, move everything to a flat tax that everyone pays, and I will less grudgingly pass on my share.

I have no problem returning to begging as a form of social justice. If you can't/won't work you need to actively do something to acquire an income. Hiring activists and political action committees is organized crime, not begging. I think if people had to beg for their charity, they'd be more likely to view it as limited duration and causing hardship to the people that they know. Those people may also judge them as non-deserving of charity because they aren't fixing their problems they just want them subsidized.

I do believe in charity, but charity is NOT forced theft of someone's wages. The government takes the money it redistributes BEFORE the Taxpayer sees the money. The government doles it out for food, healthcare, education, etc. for others before the Taxpayer has met their own family's obligations. Charity is what one does voluntarily, in service to others. Government sponsored welfare is simply theft without a mask.
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