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  #1  
Old 07-10-17, 09:04 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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Is it time for rec leagues to grow again?

Too many watered down travel teams soaking up too many kids that should be playing rec ball??
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  #2  
Old 07-10-17, 09:47 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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That's ultimately going to be a parental/stakeholder decision, as they're the ones that are deciding what level of ball for their children to play. In many cases this is a "status" decision more than an "ability" decision; however, it's hard for a "non-stakeholder" to tell a "stakeholder" what to do.
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Old 07-10-17, 10:23 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLAGuy View Post
Too many watered down travel teams soaking up too many kids that should be playing rec ball??
I can only dream
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  #4  
Old 07-11-17, 05:48 AM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
That's ultimately going to be a parental/stakeholder decision, as they're the ones that are deciding what level of ball for their children to play. In many cases this is a "status" decision more than an "ability" decision; however, it's hard for a "non-stakeholder" to tell a "stakeholder" what to do.
The word status is a great way to describe it. There was another thread about the money grab of programs that create 2-4 teams per age group. I have coached and currently umpire some real good Summer Ball and do come across these teams from time to time that makes me question what the heck are these parents paying for? Your word "Status" is the perfect word to describe it.
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Old 07-11-17, 08:46 AM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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The majority of travel ball under 18u is a waste of money and time. Too many garbage teams. Too many daddy's putting together teams for Jr., who will never even play for his high school team. I would love to see rec ball come back. There are so many mediocre travel players that would thrive in the rec leagues.
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Old 07-11-17, 09:16 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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I like this model:

Rec --> Rec All-Stars in June/July --> Rec All Stars of All-Stars in July/August.

In our area in the 90's "Select" was The All-Stars of the All-Stars traveling team in August only. There were fewer teams, but the baseball was outstanding.

With the above model, you play about 30 games. Your first 15 games in the rec league is fun, hard competition where the All-Stars dominate. The next 5-6 games are the all-stars at the local league level. Then the last 10 are the truly "select" kids, (all star of all stars) and they get after it at state/national tournaments. Right now this model works in the community I work in as we have 5 - 6 surrounding towns in a rec "league" that has about 20 rec teams total at the 11-12 level.

Currently I have a Rec --> All star (but would just average joe on the All-Star of All-Stars). He loves baseball, gets to work on basketball daily, and is excited for Football to start. He is not burnt out and loves it right now. The above model is better for the non-super elite in a given age bracket. If my son was Elite, would I give into the Select madness? I hope I would not. He has made select in the past, but he would just be Avg. so we never went for it. Is Avg against good competition better than Standing out against poor comp? I do not know, I am trying the latter.

Getting multiple rec leagues to pool together in one region league (that driving is not crazy 15-20 min tops) will save rec.

Last edited by yakyak; 07-12-17 at 09:05 AM.
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  #7  
Old 07-11-17, 11:29 AM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakyak View Post
Getting multiple rec leagues to pool together in one region league (that driving is not crazy 15-20 min tops) will save rec.
No it won't.

In my area we have a county wide rec tournament. It averages around 32 teams in the 12u every year. Largest ever was 54 (I think). This encompasses 6 different rec leagues. We used to have 10 leagues.

The leagues also team up during fall ball to get enough players. They used to have crossover games, between leagues, but I'm not sure that still happens.

I watched my nephews play in the championship this year and it was a joke. The runner up was in it only because they had a kid who could pitch curveballs. After 3 innings he could only throw meatballs. The players on the team were undersized and not very good.

Parents realizing their kids are not super stars is the only thing that will save rec ball.
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Old 07-11-17, 01:06 PM
2manyBats 2manyBats is offline
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...... just when I thought it the world turned ........

had to get a catcher fill in over the weekend in a tournament. Young man had just graduated and was 2nd / 3rd string. ( came from league opponent during HS - same age as my son, and I never heard of him )

Not the best arm from behind the dish, so I could see him getting beat out.

But ..... in 5 games- had an Eagle Eye at the plate, got walked half the time and Hit Great and never struck out !! Can you image = Swings at Strikes and he played a Very Very solid 2nd base !!!

Only now wondering WTF was his HS coach doing keeping him out of the lineup !

He has open invitation to keep playing !!

Point - maybe he should have played Travel over House league !
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  #9  
Old 07-11-17, 01:27 PM
Mansfield Buckeye Mansfield Buckeye is offline
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I think what we have here are parents that are pissed about how bad travel ball is and parents that are pissed about how bad rec ball is. Rec ball in our area is a disaster. No teaching of the game cuz the coaches dont know anything, (often times not their fault, they were the only ones who would volunteer.) In travel, you do see the same tendencies but from my viewpoint there is a higher percentage of people who know whats going on that are coaching. So....what we need to decide is, are the kids playing more games in travel? (my area yes, but only about 5-10% are in travel) Are the kids learning the game they way it is played today? Are the kids having fun? In our experience, Travel ball was far superior, but we played at a high level. i have not run a tourny lately to see what the lower levels are like. Now the thing that gets everyone is the cost. No doubt about it Rec ball is cheaper. No solution for Daddy ball. Always been there,....always will. Unless you want to spend the money to hire coaches. NO one seems to want to spend the money.
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Old 07-11-17, 04:13 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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The frustrating thing is that there are plenty of empty baseball fields or fields that are being closed down. If more kids stayed home in their rec league, more kids could play the game and the price would come way down for fees and travel expenses.

They should have a tryout right now for all travel ball players and take the top 10% and send the other 90% home to play in their local rec league. Plenty of Major League stars were able to make it to the pros when the game wasn't so expensive.
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  #11  
Old 07-11-17, 07:44 PM
Mansfield Buckeye Mansfield Buckeye is offline
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We actually really enjoyed travelling around and playing baseball. If there is a demand to play travel ball, then people will pay to play. No one is forced to play travel, unless there is no rec league. The Rec leagues around my area are just as money hungry as travel teams. They charge 75$ for a snap back hat and a t shirt for a 15 game schedule. You translate that out to 60 games and you have travel ball costs. Then you are forced to sell tickets for stuff, work for free, all so a few guys and make some money over the summer. They use high school kids as umpires who are influenced by all the ridiculous adults, for 8$ a game btw. The problem is not travel ball or rec ball. Its getting knowledgeable people running the show. Changing some things so today's kids find it really fun. Problem is there are so few people who can do it and so many millenial parents who dont like johnny failing or looking bad at anything. Were in a bad spot. There is room for both, I just dont know the solution.
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  #12  
Old 07-11-17, 08:38 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Good stuff mansfield
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  #13  
Old 07-11-17, 09:08 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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Getting knowledgeable people to run the show is going to be more difficult in the future because fewer kids playing. Then throw in the know-nothing Dads that are coaching these teams so little Johnny can bat first and play shortstop aren't teaching good baseball.
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  #14  
Old 07-11-17, 11:51 PM
playboi12 playboi12 is offline
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Does anyone here remember Athletic Knothole(rec)? I remember the concept being a longer season(30-35 games) and they played a few of the select/travel teams in the area. I remember my older brother playing in it in cincy back in the 90's. They would play a rec game one day, and play JTM or Panel Barn the next.
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  #15  
Old 07-12-17, 08:10 AM
fortfan fortfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansfield Buckeye View Post
The problem is not travel ball or rec ball. Its getting knowledgeable people running the show. Changing some things so today's kids find it really fun. Problem is there are so few people who can do it and so many millenial parents who dont like johnny failing or looking bad at anything. Were in a bad spot. There is room for both, I just dont know the solution.
This x 1000.

Then you have the stupid rec league rules. Every kid that shows up gets to bat. How is that promoting working hard to get better?
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  #16  
Old 07-12-17, 08:59 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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The real real problem is that kids no longer play baseball in a unorganized fashion. Everything is games. There were so many developmental items that were just learned by playing 3 on 3 home run derby style with your friends at the park every day in the summer. So the standard kids have no time to develop with the state of rec being poor coaching and select is all games no development.

The problem above does not impact the elite, but the "standard" kids in the sport. This is why the sport is becoming specilizaed like hockey. It does not mean that it is less enjoyable at the higher levels, its just dramatically different sport than it was awhile ago. Does this mean its worse overall for the game? Even though MLB attendance is really good, I do not see how having less kids playing a game is good for the sport. If you rip away MLB, the college and high school state of the sport is really bad right now. And on the MLB side, where would our game be without a very solid foreign contribution to the game, America's pastime?

Awful non sports aware parents ruined it! How to fix, no clue. I mentioned earlier that I thought the shared rec concept would help, others have chimed in that also has failed in other areas. Works ok in North Dayton, OH area.

Adults ruin all youth sports.
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  #17  
Old 07-12-17, 10:51 AM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyBats View Post
...... just when I thought it the world turned ........

had to get a catcher fill in over the weekend in a tournament. Young man had just graduated and was 2nd / 3rd string. ( came from league opponent during HS - same age as my son, and I never heard of him )

Not the best arm from behind the dish, so I could see him getting beat out.

But ..... in 5 games- had an Eagle Eye at the plate, got walked half the time and Hit Great and never struck out !! Can you image = Swings at Strikes and he played a Very Very solid 2nd base !!!

Only now wondering WTF was his HS coach doing keeping him out of the lineup !

He has open invitation to keep playing !!

Point - maybe he should have played Travel over House league !
Are the kids who start on his school team better at their positions? Has he only played catcher his entire career? Was he willing to change positions on his school team? Did every position player bat on his school team? If they didn't all bat was he good enough to be DH? Was he the best DH? What did he do in BP for his school team? What did he do in the games he played for his school team? Is he more timid on his school team? Was he lazy in practice? Did his coaches have to repeatedly explain things to him? Did he argue with his coaches? Was he ever in academic trouble? Was he habitually in academic trouble? Was he ever injured during the season? Has he had a chronic injury?

Lot of questions to answer before you assume that his coaches didn't try to get him in the lineup.
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  #18  
Old 07-12-17, 11:51 AM
Hitnrun Hitnrun is offline
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You are assuming some hs coaches actually care that much to invest the time to see how and where most kids trying out for their high school squad actually play what position, let alone which summer team team they are on. So many already have their mind made up before the tryouts have begun. High school baseball in truth is becoming more and more insignificant in the actual development of most players. The development comes from each kids desire to train with qualified instructors and coaches during the off season. That's where real progress is made, not during a typical cold wet spring hs season, with multiple rainouts, fewer practice time, and inferior competition. Sure the big programs will always produce a superior product, but the balance of most high school baseball programs do little to nothing to improve the average high school player on their roster. Just not enough time, or resources.
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Old 07-12-17, 12:42 PM
Old Wildcat Old Wildcat is offline
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I agree there are to many travel teams today. There are rec teams playing travel and getting pounded. I'm involved with arguably one of the premier travel teams in Ohio. We travel 4 or 5 times a year ex. Columbus, Myrtle, Cincinnati, Disney,and this year Vanderbilt. We do play local tournaments as well ( travel ball tournaments ). We end up playing some very bad teams in pool play and sadly many can't even play fundamental baseball. We're going to keep the peddle down till we get to the mercy rule. Unfortunately the parents of these poor teams get hostile at times when your up 16-17 to nothing. I will not ask our players to get out on purpose, in the past we have told opposing coach's we're going to bunt or we have our kids switch hit. Some teams can't even handle Fielding bunts even when they know it's coming. Now this isn't all the time but enough that I feel bad for those teams. However if your going to take your son's rec team and play some tough tournaments don't be surprised of the out come. Even this year's USSSA State Tournament had some very bad teams. Shame on coaches
Putting kids in that situation and shame on tournament directors for becoming money hungry and greedy. As I mentioned before we'll keep the hammer down till the run rule, if you can save pitching by ending the game in 4 or 5 innings we do. Back in the late 70's and the 80's you had a hand full of travel teams, The Manchester A's, The Boys Of Summer, R T. medical just to name a few. Now there are in N.E. Ohio 4 or 5 very good teams 10 average teams and many very bad teams. It does get better at 15u when the teams get consolidated down. Anyway that's my opinion.
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  #20  
Old 07-12-17, 01:03 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I think the "status" argument hits the nail on the head.

The rec leagues would be very good leagues if everyone not at the elite level just played for their school/rec league. I understand the best of the best wanting and needing to play in these select leagues, but for everyone else, they feel they "have to" for their kid to get "looked at" for high school, when really, these parents deep down know their kid isn't good enough to make the high school team.

Honestly, in some ways, it's like recruiting for a fraternity, where the money you pay really locks you in for social entertainment for the summer (where parents justify it by saying the pizza and hotel swimming pool parties are so much fun). Well, that may be great and all, but don't make believe you're paying for the baseball. It's the social piece for the parents and the kids. Those are fraternity fees you're paying.

Sadly, in some cases, high school selections, once you get past the obvious studs, become more of a social choice than a talent choice.
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  #21  
Old 07-12-17, 03:06 PM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitnrun View Post
You are assuming some hs coaches actually care that much to invest the time to see how and where most kids trying out for their high school squad actually play what position, let alone which summer team team they are on. So many already have their mind made up before the tryouts have begun. High school baseball in truth is becoming more and more insignificant in the actual development of most players. The development comes from each kids desire to train with qualified instructors and coaches during the off season. That's where real progress is made, not during a typical cold wet spring hs season, with multiple rainouts, fewer practice time, and inferior competition. Sure the big programs will always produce a superior product, but the balance of most high school baseball programs do little to nothing to improve the average high school player on their roster. Just not enough time, or resources.
Well I'm going to have to go back and tell all the coaches I work with that they should stop watching the players when they are conditioning/throwing/hitting during the off season months. I should tell them the paperwork they give the kids to see what positions they have played in the past, where they want to play going forward, and if they want to learn to pitch should be thrown away. You know, since they don't use those to develop the players. No sense going to the state coaches clinics to learn new coaching techniques and buy advanced equipment because as high school coaches they don't use them. I guess all of those coaches they talk to at the clinics have been lying when they say how they work with the kids and try to move them around to give them a better chance of playing and helping the team. I also need to tell them to stop going to the 7th and 8th grade games to see how the players look at their positions. No reason to go to the travel tournaments when a fr/so/jr is pitching since they don't care about them as a player or a person.

These qualified pitching and hitting instructors are qualified how?? There are several near me who played high school baseball. A few "played" small college ball. If you are lucky you might find one that spent a couple years in the minors or majors. The guys that coach my son's high school team all have the same qualifications except playing in the majors. What about the coaches who live in warm weather states? Do they not care either? Even though they can spend more time outside with the players. I guess that month, beginning in Feb., in the cages and the gyms don't count. All those hours are a waste because they are not working outside.
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Old 07-12-17, 03:28 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
Well I'm going to have to go back and tell all the coaches I work with that they should stop watching the players when they are conditioning/throwing/hitting during the off season months. I should tell them the paperwork they give the kids to see what positions they have played in the past, where they want to play going forward, and if they want to learn to pitch should be thrown away. You know, since they don't use those to develop the players. No sense going to the state coaches clinics to learn new coaching techniques and buy advanced equipment because as high school coaches they don't use them. I guess all of those coaches they talk to at the clinics have been lying when they say how they work with the kids and try to move them around to give them a better chance of playing and helping the team. I also need to tell them to stop going to the 7th and 8th grade games to see how the players look at their positions. No reason to go to the travel tournaments when a fr/so/jr is pitching since they don't care about them as a player or a person.

These qualified pitching and hitting instructors are qualified how?? There are several near me who played high school baseball. A few "played" small college ball. If you are lucky you might find one that spent a couple years in the minors or majors. The guys that coach my son's high school team all have the same qualifications except playing in the majors. What about the coaches who live in warm weather states? Do they not care either? Even though they can spend more time outside with the players. I guess that month, beginning in Feb., in the cages and the gyms don't count. All those hours are a waste because they are not working outside.
While what you say may be true, it doesn't make what he said false.

Alot of truth in the post you responded to.
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  #23  
Old 07-12-17, 08:12 PM
Hitnrun Hitnrun is offline
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Can't speak to the quality of baseball instructors you associate with in the off season, but I would think someone who manages in an mlb farm system, with a resume including being the hitting instructor for another MLB minor league team may be just slightly more qualified than your average high school coach. It all depends who you as a parent search out to actually teach and develop your child, assuming he has talent and potential. There are many other qualified college coaches, former minor league and mlb players who also offer their services to the youth in many communities. Of course, there are others who can take advantage of those lesser informed parents and players. At the high school level, you basically have no choice who you play for. Of course some are better and more committed than others. That's why you as a parent have the responsibility to search out the qualified guys, and monitor their progress with your kid.
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Old 07-13-17, 10:51 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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I would say that good pitching and hitting coaches are overrated. Kids that put the time in can become great players without any coaching. It worked for 100 years in the sport of baseball before the easy money from desperate parents came in to play. Save the money for pitching and hitting coaches and put it in the bank for the college savings. The chances of playing collegiately won't change but you will have more money when those bills start coming in.
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Old 07-14-17, 12:22 PM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Originally Posted by SLAGuy View Post
I would say that good pitching and hitting coaches are overrated. Kids that put the time in can become great players without any coaching. It worked for 100 years in the sport of baseball before the easy money from desperate parents came in to play. Save the money for pitching and hitting coaches and put it in the bank for the college savings. The chances of playing collegiately won't change but you will have more money when those bills start coming in.
Exactly. How did kids ever get recruited before travel baseball, and specialized coaching came along???? We had the same cold, rainy pre-season that they have now. We probably had less "qualified" coaches than they do now. My son's high school coaches were 4 former college baseball players, 1 minor leaguer, and 1 high school. When I played my high school head coach was a former college player and the rest were high school teachers that played high school ball. I know most of the high school coaches in our league now and almost all of them are former college players. To say that these coaches don't care and are giving less instruction is crap.
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  #26  
Old 07-14-17, 04:10 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Baseball at the hs level is not better than it was 20 years ago, some may say it dogresed. If travel ball is so much better to cultivate talent then why isn't the game at the hs level better? Practicw. Kids are playing more, but practicing less and spending so much time traveling that could go to valuable practice time
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Old 07-14-17, 05:39 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Baseball at the hs level is not better than it was 20 years ago, some may say it dogresed. If travel ball is so much better to cultivate talent then why isn't the game at the hs level better? Practicw. Kids are playing more, but practicing less and spending so much time traveling that could go to valuable practice time
Interesting observation.

From May through July for example, how many ground balls does an infielder really get when they play a lot of games without much time for practice?

Not just the routine ones to practice, but forehand, backhand, slow rollers, etc...???
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  #28  
Old 07-14-17, 06:36 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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It always entertains me to see just how many of us believe that other people's kids need to be playing rec ball.

Still waiting for that first anonymous poster to say, "Yeah, my kid just sucks at baseball. I threw a couple thousand bucks away trying to make him into something he just wouldn't work hard enough to be."
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Old 07-14-17, 07:43 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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Does it count if I say I saw other parents throw 10s of thousands away? When parents belittle you for playing in the Rec League and their kid is traversing around the country on their 12u team, by the time they get to HS, several rec leaguers have passed him and he quits after freshmen year.
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Old 07-14-17, 07:44 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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Also, it's not that I want other people's kids to play rec ball. It's that I want a whole group of kids to play together in the local rec league instead of playing at the same level, just calling it something different.
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